J20 Stealth Fighter

[SexyChineseLady]

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Better resolution pictures slowly being released:

View attachment 187692

what is your point? none just quote me without sense

 

[StealthFlanker]

my argument are not wrong.
The thrust at 0km/h can be 100% of what the engine can achieve but with pressure recovery loses will not be 100% but less, you are just fantasizing, it is pretty obvious, you do not understand what an engine needs.
At Mach 1,6 the f135 the engine has pressure loses, thus the engine can not generate 100% of its potential thrust, thus F-35 is limited at Max altitude and speed to Mach 1.6. if it tries to go faster the engine can not deliver 100% of its thrust but less than that so you are fantasizing.

Yes, your arguments wrong, and every time you have been proven wrong, you blatantly use the strawman argument tactic to try to move your goal post with unrelated information and putting words in people mouth. You have been trying to argue against something that no one ever said
-Your first argument was: "slender fighter are faster" => and that was wrong, these fastest fighters like F-14, F-15, Mig-31, Mig-25 are actually quite fat/thick looking
-Your second argument was "inlet has nothing to do with airplane top speed" => and that was absolutely wrong as well. Inlet design have everything to do with aircraft top speed. It is not coincidence that these fastest fighters need variable inlet.
Now as to your next fallacy regarding engine variable thrust and static thrust.
Sure, at high altitude and speed, the thrust will not be as high as sea level. But the issue that you intentionally forget is that: The thrust which propelled aircraft forward is not the engine thrust alone, but rather the resultant thrust. Resultant thrust is thrust minus drag. Higher altitude mean lower thrust due to lower air density. But lower air density also mean lower drag. And that why aircraft have higher top speed at altitude even though their thrust reduced

Regarding F-35 thrust and top speed. Firstly, Mach 1.6 is not the thrust limit but the placard limit. There is very good reason that the flight envelop diagram of F-35 has perpendicular line at the edge limit

A thrust/drag limited envelop will look like this

Not that top speed really matter anyway

Stealth is not fixed not even the detection range which obviously you do not understand, more power density means longer range, you go to generalize you think all the radars have the same range which shows your ignorance, in fact it shows you do not understand what is a lamp.

View attachment 187667
with lamps different wattage different lumens same is a radar but usually they do not use lumens, but decibels, your ignorance is to think RCS is fixed and all radars see F-22 at the same range

View attachment 187670
Converting Radar Power in Watts to Decibels
dBW: Transmitter power output in decibels.
PowerWatts: Transmitter power output in watts.

EXAMPLE: What is the dBW of a 1 megawatt radar? 10 x log10(1,000,000) = 60 dB​

Decibels and Radars

which is not true Decibels are equivalent to lumens, so depending on radars F-22 is seen at different ranges your ignorance is you think Nebo sees the F-22 at the same range of Irbis or Zaslon which shows you you do not comprehend what is a radar.
More wattage means longer range of detection, bigger antena means better range too

No one here ever said that stealth is a fixed value, no one here ever said radar detection range is a fixed value either. Everyone have been trying to explain to you so many times that the value of stealth is the reduction in detection range, so that the stealth aircraft can engage enemy first.
You are the one who claim that "there are no stealth aircraft", and A-50 radar can see stealth aircraft from 600 km, well , if that was the case then something like Nebo radar would be a piece of trash

View attachment 187710

 

[StealthFlanker]

pure fantasy, the formula says RCS is just a variable in it, power density or wave length are others, your fantasy which does not go with physics, is to claim F-22 has a fixed range of detection and swallows Lockheed propaganda numbers, not physics nor math depending on the radar you get different detection ranges, so the Russians give different numbers because they use other radars while lockheed Martin uses a fixed radar calculation very generic to give a commercial and propagandistic value to fool fools that think all radars will detect F-22 at the same range.

View attachment 187674

We were not talking about "detection range", we were talking about RCS. You are literally the only one here who claim nonsense like "stealth mean invisible", "all radar detection range are the same"

 

[StealthFlanker]

yes there is a 900km blindspot, but those radars AFAIK cover europe and parts of the middle east so moving more antennas further 900kms back to where the current ones cover can also provide coverage for those blindspots, I think moscow all the way to an island that is close to Alaska is enough territory coverage to spare if we are moving the antennas further east.

technically if you have enough spare land mass then OTH-B can provide good early warning coverage

Say it does, is there such material?

Yes, and it would be super thin actually

so you agree with them giving a .3m2 measurement for the F-22 and .5m2 measurement for the Su-57?

I'm not talk about published propaganda value. Iam saying that Russia, US, when they test the RCS of their weapon/aircraft. They will put them in anechoic chamber, then view the contour map

 

[J20!]

what is your point? none just quote me without sense

Having reported this troll fest you're on to the mods, at this point I'm just trying to drown out your flip-flopping and strawmanning with...

ACTUAL J20 news and analysis.

If we say Su35 is the greatest ever and can shoot down all fighters at 600miles away with super secret Russian IRST tech and bestest ever PESA radar will you move on? Preferably towards the exit?

 

[rockdog]

Having reported this troll fest you're on to the mods, at this point I'm just trying to drown out your flip-flopping and strawmanning with...

ACTUAL J20 news and analysis.

If we say Su35 is the greatest ever and can shoot down all fighters at 600miles away with super secret Russian IRST tech and bestest ever PESA radar will you move on? Preferably towards the exit?

Did you ever think he would be an AI?

Each of his reply: one sentense of denial + claimed something nobody didn't try to debate + copy/pase some basic knowlege with pictures from other site or page ...

 

[Super Flanker]

View attachment 187561

new pic

J-20 in this pic looks very beautiful I must say, but I still love the look of the older J-20 though, J-20 is my fourth most favourite fifth generation plane after F-22, F-35 & Su-57. Just love the curves & build of this thing, very beautiful.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Yes, your arguments wrong, and every time you have been proven wrong, you blatantly use the strawman argument tactic to try to move your goal post with unrelated information and putting words in people mouth. You have been trying to argue against something that no one ever said
-Your first argument was: "slender fighter are faster" => and that was wrong, these fastest fighters like F-14, F-15, Mig-31, Mig-25 are actually quite fat/thick looking
-Your second argument was "inlet has nothing to do with airplane top speed" => and that was absolutely wrong as well. Inlet design have everything to do with aircraft top speed. It is not coincidence that these fastest fighters need variable inlet.
Now as to your next fallacy regarding engine variable thrust and static thrust.
Sure, at high altitude and speed, the thrust will not be as high as sea level. But the issue that you intentionally forget is that: The thrust which propelled aircraft forward is not the engine thrust alone, but rather the resultant thrust. Resultant thrust is thrust minus drag. Higher altitude mean lower thrust due to lower air density. But lower air density also mean lower drag. And that why aircraft have higher top speed at altitude even though their thrust reduced

Regarding F-35 thrust and top speed. Firstly, Mach 1.6 is not the thrust limit but the placard limit. There is very good reason that the flight envelop diagram of F-35 has perpendicular line at the edge limit
View attachment 187714

A thrust/drag limited envelop will look like this
View attachment 187716

Not that top speed really matter anyway
View attachment 187717




No one here ever said that stealth is a fixed value, no one here ever said radar detection range is a fixed value either. Everyone have been trying to explain to you so many times that the value of stealth is the reduction in detection range, so that the stealth aircraft can engage enemy first.
You are the one who claim that "there are no stealth aircraft", and A-50 radar can see stealth aircraft from 600 km, well , if that was the case then something like Nebo radar would be a piece of trash

View attachment 187710

you are simply avoiding reality, RCS is a measurement to know how much power density is wasted by the shape of the target since each shape reflects the same amount of power density in different angular directions by being distributed in different scattering peaks.

Obviously the detection range formula uses it.

however power density and wave length are other elements. these two mean that the RCS of F-22 can be detected at different ranges.

Now if you want to believe F-35 can not be detected by Nebo or A-100 and your Chinese crowd thinks J-20 is as good as F-35 and support you and you think you are right be my guest, but in the formula there is nothing that forbids F-22 to be detected as Russian A-50 crews claims or Nebo designers claim.

The intake only allows the engine to keep some of its max potential thrust and you are pretty wrong F-35 was not designed to be fast, it is fat, so a cap of Mach 1.6 is the best for its fixed intake, if our chinese crowd thinks J-20 can reach Mach 2 and the intakes does not have loses in pressure and the engines do reduce thrust so be it but definitively pure fans, pressure recovery loses after Mach 1.8 are big, even at Mach 1.6 for fixed air intakes.

So no what makes speed possible is thrust but the air intake only allows adequate engine operation

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Did you ever think he would be an AI?

Each of his reply: one sentense of denial + claimed something nobody didn't try to debate + copy/pase some basic knowlege with pictures from other site or page ...

you are a fool who thinks he is smart talking to her sister

 

[MiG-29SMT]

J-20 in this pic looks very beautiful I must say, but I still love the look of the older J-20 though, J-20 is my fourth most favourite fifth generation plane after F-22, F-35 & Su-57. Just love the curves & build of this thing, very beautiful.

if you only use emoticons if for lack of knowledge pure infantile, better research physics do not forbid F-22 or any stealth fighter from being detected at different ranges, lack of arguments but lots of

 

[Super Flanker]

if you only use emoticons if for lack of knowledge pure infantile, better research physics do not forbid F-22 or any stealth fighter from being detected at different ranges, lack of arguments but lots of

Can you please tell me where have I claimed that F-22 or other stealth aircrafts (or any aircraft for that matter be it Stealth/non-Stealth) cannot be detected at different ranges?

I will put in simple terms, more powerful the radar, more the range it will detect a target with a given RCS. Let's take for e.g the radar of a MiG-23 & F-35, the MiG-23 uses RP-23 "Sapfir" radar, F-35 uses AN/APG-81 radar, the radar of the F-35 is much more powerful than that of the MiG-23, let's say that we have a target, for e.g an AWACs or even a Stealth fighter like J-20 or Su-57, whose radar will detect these given targets first? The answer is simple, the F-35's radar will detect it before the MIG-23's simply because the radar of F-35 is much more powerful and has superior range too, but does that mean that MiG-23's radar cannot detect J-20 or Su-57? No, it very well can, actually even the radar of MiG-21 can detect stealth fighters like F-22, F-35, J-20, Su-57 etc, I have already written to you about this in a previous post of mine. Will not explain further.

You are constantly pulling off strawman arguments at this point, look, you are bringing up imaginary >claims< that we ourselves have never made & then countering those claims and acting as if you are correct your logic is a mystery to me sir.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

technically if you have enough spare land mass then OTH-B can provide good early warning coverage



Yes, and it would be super thin actually



I'm not talk about published propaganda value. Iam saying that Russia, US, when they test the RCS of their weapon/aircraft. They will put them in anechoic chamber, then view the contour map

This started since you think IRST can not detect F-35 and your Chinese friends since this related to J-20.

The reality is higher thrust higher temperature easier to detect however you claim F-35 is thin, F135 is known to be the hottest engine for fighters but you claim it will use only 50% of its max potential thrust, 10000kgf for a fighter that weighs close to 30 tonnes. and you claim it flies with excellent potential which does not good for physics

see

that with a thrust to weight ratio than less than 50% or 0.5 to 1 the F-35 suffers from low acceleration but you claim it is a MiG-25

F-35 was designed as a faster jet than F117, more agile, but definitively not fast, MiG-25 for starters has a variable geometry intake and very thin wings, even the forebody of MiG-25 reduces cross section near the intakes.

But live in your fantasy.

F-35 was designed as a BVR aircraft, highly aware of the battlefield and armed with high off bored missiles and HMS, which does not make it in need of agility, only stay at good distance for BVR attacks and with numbers being able to down 4th generation fighters

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Can you please tell me where have I claimed that F-22 or other stealth aircrafts (or any aircraft for that matter be it Stealth/non-Stealth) cannot be detected at different ranges?

I will put in simple terms, more powerful the radar, more the range it will detect a target with a given RCS. Let's take for e.g the radar of a MiG-23 & F-35, the MiG-23 uses RP-23 "Sapfir" radar, F-35 uses AN/APG-81 radar, the radar of the F-35 is much more powerful than that of the MiG-23, let's say that we have a target, for e.g an AWACs or even a Stealth fighter like J-20 or Su-57, whose radar will detect these given targets first? The answer is simple, the F-35's radar will detect it before the MIG-23's simply because the radar of F-35 is much more powerful and has superior range too, but does that mean that MiG-23's radar cannot detect J-20 or Su-57? No, it very well can, actually even the radar of MiG-21 can detect stealth fighters like F-22, F-35, J-20, Su-57 etc, I have already written to you about this in a previous post of mine. Will not explain further.

You are constantly pulling off strawman arguments at this point, look, you are bringing up imaginary >claims< that we ourselves have never made & then countering those claims and acting as if you are correct your logic is a mystery to me sir.

you are just hiding your lack of arguments the formula if you understand it says F-22 can be detected at different ranges simply like that however you got mad because you think RCS is fixed so F-35 is stealth all the time it is not every thing depends on the radar power, sensitivity and wavelength, NEBO very likely detects F-22 on ranges that allows Su-57 to be guide it to intercept it specially it has IRST system and F-22 does not have it.

If you want to believe F-35 will remain unseen and stealth against any radar be my guest sadly reality has a rule energy is not destroyed or created thus stealth is limited in its effectiveness against some limits; given other parameters it does not work and restricts aerodynamics so much that potential growth is affected F-35 pays it on a very long development time

 

[StealthFlanker]

you are simply avoiding reality, RCS is a measurement to know how much power density is wasted by the shape of the target since each shape reflects the same amount of power density in different angular directions by being distributed in different scattering peaks.

Obviously the detection range formula uses it.

however power density and wave length are other elements. these two mean that the RCS of F-22 can be detected at different ranges.

Now if you want to believe F-35 can not be detected by Nebo or A-100 and your Chinese crowd thinks J-20 is as good as F-35 and support you and you think you are right be my guest, but in the formula there is nothing that forbids F-22 to be detected as Russian A-50 crews claims or Nebo designers claim.

No one here ever said RCS of aircraft are the same at all frequency, no one here ever said that all radar will detect stealth aircraft at the same distance. No one ever said "stealth mean invisible"
It actually very clear from the simulation how RCS value changed along with direction and frequency

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Everyone have explained to you plenty of time that the goal of stealth is to reduce RCS, and so that the stealth aircraft can detect and engage enemy before the opposite happen

The intake only allows the engine to keep some of its max potential thrust and you are pretty wrong F-35 was not designed to be fast, it is fat, so a cap of Mach 1.6 is the best for its fixed intake, if our chinese crowd thinks J-20 can reach Mach 2 and the intakes does not have loses in pressure and the engines do reduce thrust so be it but definitively pure fans, pressure recovery loses after Mach 1.8 are big, even at Mach 1.6 for fixed air intakes.
So no what makes speed possible is thrust but the air intake only allows adequate engine operation

F-16 has fixed inlet and it reached Mach 2 just fine, a variable inlet would be neccessary pass Mach 2, but then again, experience have shown that fighter rarely fly past Mach 1.4

 

[MiG-29SMT]

No one here ever said RCS of aircraft are the same at all frequency, no one here ever said that all radar will detect stealth aircraft at the same distance. No one ever said "stealth mean invisible"
It actually very clear from the simulation how RCS value changed along with direction and frequency

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Everyone have explained to you plenty of time that the goal of stealth is to reduce RCS, and so that the stealth aircraft can detect and engage enemy before the opposite happen



F-16 has fixed inlet and it reached Mach 2 just fine, a variable inlet would be neccessary pass Mach 2, but then again, experience have shown that fighter rarely fly past Mach 1.4

F-16 does suffer, its fixed intake drops thrust around Mach 1.7. thing that F-15 does not do so stops going against physics, all fixed air intakes start having pressure loses from Mach 1.2, most operate still okay at Mach 1.5, but after Mach 1.8 do not work well but on fighters that are mostly subsonic it is not something they worry.

F-35 ideal operates at slow speeds in the ranges of 0.9 and 1.3 mach.


Is it possible Nebo detects it? yes physics do not say it is impossible the formula stablishes it, so stealth is not guaranteed, it is just a way to make the opponent spend more money and since most air forces do not have big budgets well it works, when you are against well armed air forces, it will depend on tactics but is not assure it will work perfectly, or even work well.

Add if you have pressure loses you use more afterburner.

 

[StealthFlanker]

This started since you think IRST can not detect F-35 and your Chinese friends since this related to J-20.

I didn't say IRST can't detect F-35 or J-20 for that matter
I simply quoted the data from the OLS-UE and OLS-35 manufacturer
Their head on detection range against Su-30 size target is 15-35 km
the laser finder range distance for missile launch is 15 km
So sure, they can be used to attack stealth fighter, but before your Mig-35, Su-35 can do that, they already eat a dozen Meteor/PL-15/ AMRAAM to the face

The reality is higher thrust higher temperature easier to detect however you claim F-35 is thin, F135 is known to be the hottest engine for fighters but you claim it will use only 50% of its max potential thrust, 10000kgf for a fighter that weighs close to 30 tonnes. and you claim it flies with excellent potential which does not good for physics
see
View attachment 187734
that with a thrust to weight ratio than less than 50% or 0.5 to 1 the F-35 suffers from low acceleration but you claim it is a MiG-25

Unfortunately, you won't see the exhaust from head on direction, that why the head on detection range and tail on detection range of IRST are different
Oh and btw, a loaded F-35 is a lot less than 30 tons, 13,290 kg empty weight and 8,278 kg internal fuel, 6 AIM-120D is only 972 kg. Total is only 22,541 kg.
Just so you know, in cruising, fighters even use less than 50% of their max potential thrust. You pretty much only need to light your AB at take off, dogfight
As for Mig-25, its acceleration is actually a lot worse than F-35

 

[StealthFlanker]

F-16 does suffer, its fixed intake drops thrust around Mach 1.7. thing that F-15 does not do so stops going against with physics, all fixed air intakes start having pressure loses from Mach 1.2, most operate still okay at Mach 1.5, but after Mach 1.8 do not work well but on fighters that are mostly subsonic it is not something they worry.
F-35 ideal operates at slow speeds in the ranges of 0.9 and 1.3 mach.

The point is that you dont actually need a variable inlet to reach Mach 2, and operationally, fighter doesn't even fly at that speed

Is it possible Nebo detects it? yes physics do not say it is impossible the formula stablishes it, so stealth is not guaranteed, it is just a way to make the opponent spend more money and since most air forces do not have big budgets well it works, when you are against well armed air forces, it will depend on tactics but is not assure it will work perfectly, or even work well.
Add if you have pressure loses you use more afterburner.

Again for a million times, no one ever said stealth is completely invisible. The whole point of stealth is so that you can detect and attack enemy first, especially in jamming condition
If the burn through distance against your fighters is only 1/10 that of the enemy, then that a significant tactical advantage

 

[Super Flanker]

you are just hiding your lack of arguments the formula if you understand it says F-22 can be detected at different ranges simply like that however you got mad because you think RCS is fixed so F-35 is stealth all the time it is not every thing depends on the radar power, sensitivity and wavelength, NEBO very likely detects F-22 on ranges that allows Su-57 to be guide it to intercept it specially it has IRST system and F-22 does not have it.

I am not hiding my lack of arguments, it's you who is resorting to making strawman arguments, you are constantly making up your own imaginary accusations that we are making a particular argument and then countering that same argument and acting as if you are correct, even though we have never advocated any part of that so called claim. You in the past were advocating that we claimed stealth means "invisibility" to radar, I ask you to show us a single instance where I or any other member for that instance has claimed that stealth means "invisibility". I & other members have already told that what Stealth is, i will not explain again.

OMG, when did I claim that?
No one here is saying that RCS is a fixed value, When did I even claim that? I clearly have said that any radar in this world of any plane can detect any other plane in the world. I also gave you the example of MIG-23, MiG-21 & F-35. Anyways RCS is not fixed in any way, for e.g at a certain angle an Su-57 will have a much higher RCS, on other hand, at another certain angle the Su-57 will reflect less radar return towards the emitter and will have a higher RCS value. It depends on variables like frequency & direction. So RCS is not fixed & I have never claimed that.

If you want to believe F-35 will remain unseen and stealth against any radar be my guest sadly reality has a rule energy is not destroyed or created thus stealth is limited in its effectiveness against some limits given other parameters it does not work and restricts aerodynamics so much that potential growth is affected F-35 pays it on a very long development time

If you think by accusing us of making imaginary claims and countering that & acting as if we claimed it makes you look like some expert then be my guest, omg how many times are you making up claims after claims after claims which none of us ever made? Now did I ever say that energy can be destroyed? I am already aware of the law which states that energy can never be destroyed.

Conservation of energy
"In physics and chemistry, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant; it is said to be conserved over time."

And no, F-35 will not remain unseen to radar, because it is not invisible, no plane in this world is invisible to radar in any way. Again I have never claimed that F-35 is some "wonder weopon" that it has some "magic cloaking" ability that will make it unseen.

Keep up with your strawman arguments, keep claiming stuff we never claimed, keep countering that and act as if you are right.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

I didn't say IRST can't detect F-35 or J-20 for that matter
I simply quoted the data from the OLS-UE and OLS-35 manufacturer
Their head on detection range against Su-30 size target is 15-35 km
the laser finder range distance for missile launch is 15 km
So sure, they can be used to attack stealth fighter, but before your Mig-35, Su-35 can do that, they already eat a dozen Meteor/PL-15/ AMRAAM to the face

Unfortunately, you won't see the exhaust from head on direction, that why the head on detection range and tail on detection range of IRST are different
Oh and btw, a loaded F-35 is a lot less than 30 tons, 13,290 kg empty weight and 8,278 kg internal fuel, 6 AIM-120D is only 972 kg. Total is only 22,541 kg.
Just so you know, in cruising, fighters even use less than 50% of their max potential thrust. You pretty much only need to light your AB at take off, dogfight
As for Mig-25, its acceleration is actually a lot worse than F-35

F135 to achieve 19000kgf is much hotter than Al-31 for sure, the Russians say 25-35 km on a very low power setting 10000kgf, remember that for a fighter weighing close to 29000kg well it means being slow and at high altitude turn rates drop, less thrust lower turns turn rate higher altitude, less agility.

So F-35 can not carry lots of fuels has bad performance and agility, reduce pressure recovery and you add more fuel on the afterburner or even military setting.

Add Nebo or A-100 it is detectable very likely you want to believe or not well that is your loyalties same to the Chinese that think J-20 is stealth