J-21/J-31 Chinese 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

[Yijiuliuer]

true Pakistan has already given its sovereignty to USA, China, UAE and NATO, so i wont be surprised if they offer something to China in return.

Why the mutual dislike( I won't say hatred) are sooooooooooooo fierce between you guys?

Let the history be history, you two people can get a lot benefit by keeping a normal relatioship.

 

[farhan_9909]

Why the mutual dislike( I won't say hatred) are sooooooooooooo fierce between you guys?

Let the history be history, you two people can get a lot benefit by keeping a normal relatioship.

brother you do have option of ignoring such guys.just click on there profile and put them into your ignore list

done this and the forum is much better without these guys.

 

[average american]

- in overall Soviet, Russia, China aircraft industry was always behind the West

neither can make but the simplest UAVs and buys them from the west

Neither has shown signs of possessing true stealth technology while US have forty years long experience in this area and spent about 250 billion dollars in total on it developing several generations of stealth designs

Taken all above into account it is virtually impossible that Russia or China could create indigenous 5th generation stealth fighter. they are jus not in that league. What we are seeing is some pathic attemps to copy western technology resulting in some empty test-bed airframe (lack of new engines, radar(s), IRST, avionic & ECM systems, stealth coating, armament - all of them will have to be develop and integrate in the future, some are based on old stuff) and made propaganda show: "We catch up Americans, we have our own F-22!".

Anyway both are so backward in aviation high-tech stuff they cannot design fighter comparable with F-22 or even F-35. I suppose Indian money and present Russian technology level combined should create in ten to fifteen years some...larger Eurocanard at best.

Another problem is fighters are part of a system and as such comparing just 2 fighters is pointless.

An F-35 or F-22 or F-15 flyings as a part of a whole combat system. AWACS, JSTARS, Unmanned vehicles. All these work together to accomplish the mission. So for any comparison you would need to compare the system.

 

[G90]

- in overall Soviet, Russia, China aircraft industry was always behind the West

neither can make but the simplest UAVs and buys them from the west

Neither has shown signs of possessing true stealth technology while US have forty years long experience in this area and spent about 250 billion dollars in total on it developing several generations of stealth designs

Taken all above into account it is virtually impossible that Russia or China could create indigenous 5th generation stealth fighter. they are jus not in that league. What we are seeing is some pathic attemps to copy western technology resulting in some empty test-bed airframe (lack of new engines, radar(s), IRST, avionic & ECM systems, stealth coating, armament - all of them will have to be develop and integrate in the future, some are based on old stuff) and made propaganda show: "We catch up Americans, we have our own F-22!".

Anyway both are so backward in aviation high-tech stuff they cannot design fighter comparable with F-22 or even F-35. I suppose Indian money and present Russian technology level combined should create in ten to fifteen years some...larger Eurocanard at best.

Another problem is fighters are part of a system and as such comparing just 2 fighters is pointless.

An F-35 or F-22 or F-15 flyings as a part of a whole combat system. AWACS, JSTARS, Unmanned vehicles. All these work together to accomplish the mission. So for any comparison you would need to compare the system.

The americans bragged alot about their so-called "air-superiority", yet counting since post-WW2 era, the Amerians loss more than double of the military aircrafts than the combination of the entire rest world

Whenever China is invovled, the US aircrafts fall from sky like flyers, in the two wars China directly invovled with the US: Korea war and Vietnam along, the US loses 13,000 military aircrafts.

And there are cases where four US piloted F-4 get downed by a single Chinese MiG-17.

And dont forget the fact that China has also shot down the most US spy planes around the world, to the degree the pilots of the spy planes need to write a last word letter everytime before they were on some China-spying missions.

Before you open your big mouth bragging your UAVs, first remeber your UAVs in Iran

My honest advice for you is just be very very sure your UAV wont bomb your own carriers when you order them on China

And dont forget China also developing our UAVs, including massive UAV bombers under development as well.

And China has a whole range of AWACS, AESA radars, satelliates and OTH radars, remote sensors either depolyed or in various development stages, use common sense OK?

No wonder the americans desperately trying to have some weaponary-leading edge against China, because you know you are basically HOPELESS against China if you dont enjoy a significant lead in the weaponary you used.

But too bad, by the next war between us, judging by this rate, it will be us who enjoy an edge over in the weapon department as well, good luck with that

 

[sayareakd]

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[J20!]

Same for YF-23, said to be more stealthy than the YF-22.

And even PAKFA.

Rather this concept of lumps and bumps being unstealthy may be a product of superstition, quite like canards are not stealthy rhetoric.

Kopp may not have the latest testing rigs for measuring RCS. He deals with computer simulations with assumed physics laws that may not be completely accurate. For all we know these lumps and bumps could make the aircraft even more stealthy by forcing the incident waves to reflect in multiple directions compared to a flatter surface which may reflect in only one direction.

Specular reflection

Diffused refection

You can probably say a controlled diffusal of reflection may contribute greater to stealth than the simpler specular reflection. This is just my opinion, but at the same time we don't really know these aspects well enough to either accept it or discard it.

That's why it is not as simple as you stated.

You're speculating... The whole concept of stealth is to avoid diffused reflection off a platform's surface as that's the primary means of detection via radar. If "lumps and bumps could make the aircraft even more stealthy by forcing the incident waves to reflect in multiple directions compared to a flatter surface which may reflect in only one direction", then all you'd need to make 4th generation fighter stealthy would be to make its surface smooth by removing all rivets and other protrusions and voila! you'd have a stealth platform. But as you can see from all the shaping typical of stealth fighters and bombers, that isn't in this realm of reality.

There's a reason the F35 has an RCS more than a 100 times larger than that of the F22. And since the F35 has a better more durable nanotube RAM coating, it all comes down to shaping.

And I'm not questioning Lockheed's ability to make the F35 stealthier than the J31. It's a case of wouldn't over couldn't. The Americans DECIDED to increase F35's RCS over the F22's. And considering that the development budget for F35 is more than double what went into F22, its clear that they could've made a smaller, longer range and stealthier multi-role 5th generation jet than the F22 in the F35, but due to its export designation, it has suffered those unfortunate, and rather deliberate bumps. I'm sure you know this as well as I do.

With regards to lumps and bumps being unstealthy,

YF 23:

PAK FA

F35:

Even though it isn't perfectly flat, YF23's underside is meticulously shaped and smoothly curved out to scatter radiation away from the jet and the radiation's origin. The same cannot be said for the numerous warts and lumps all along F35's belly, including the large bumps hiding the 2 weapons bays.

The same applies to PAK FA to a greater degree. From the get go, its intakes make for two very large bumps running the length of its underside, including the untreated engine bays so reminiscent of the Flanker platform its derived from. The already unstealthy intakes then each have a grille to further exacerbate the problem. And due to weapons bay placement and the failure to incorporate S-bend ducts, Sukhoi designers couldn't follow YF23's example and make the underside completely flush even though they both have separate engine nacelles on either side of the aircraft's spine.

I wont even bring in those two protrusions housing short range AAM into the argument. PAK FA was from the beginning an attempt to make the flanker platform VLO, and thus many compromises had to be made to keep the flankers maneuverability whilst keeping costs down, thus the lack of S-bend ducts, rather forced weapons bay positioning and the almost unchanged engine bay placement and coating.

It may make up for it with advance RAM coatings and perforated panels that appear opaque to radar waves to cover the visible engine blades, but due to these and other stealth compromises it will probably wont match the F35 in VLO performance.

But I digress, let's not go off-topic and make this a comparison thread.

 

[J20!]

 

[J20!]

Talk about close-up... This looks like it was taken IN A SHENGYANG HANGER!!!

 

[p2prada]

You're speculating...

You are doing the same too. You are saying things that no one in the forum world and no one who actually knows (because they can't tell) can back up your claim.

That's why instead of meaningless speculation we can only let time speak for itself.

Btw, they did not "increase" F-35's RCS, they merely planned the RCS to be at that level by using less amount of special/exotic materials in order to keep it cheap. Like I said before, we cannot needlessly speculate. We can only wait until more information is available.

There is a chance the J-20 is more stealthy than F-22 and there is a chance J-20 is less stealthy than the F-35. We simply don't know. All we know is all three are stealth aircraft and will be difficult to capture on radar. In the past even experts have been hopelessly wrong and had to wait for actual/official information from the manufacturer or espionage before knowing something concrete. We, forum crows, can only rely on manufacturer claims.

That's why there are terms like confidential and secrecy. Analysts don't have to be right, they only need to be able to create realistic possibilities that are available for threat assessment. Kopp can be perfectly right, completely wrong, or somewhere between his claims and others' claims about the F-35. Depending on all three possibilities you can try and assume what your enemy is thinking or planning to do and react accordingly. Richer military have greater advantages in such studies. During the process a manufacturer may reveal actual info and fictional info at the same time to throw off analysts like how LM released info on F-22's and F-35's stealth but are still very secretive about the F-117 even today regardless of the fact that it is no longer in service.

 

[J20!]

You are doing the same too. You are saying things that no one in the forum world and no one who actually knows (because they can't tell) can back up your claim.

That's why instead of meaningless speculation we can only let time speak for itself.

Btw, they did not "increase" F-35's RCS, they merely planned the RCS to be at that level by using less amount of special/exotic materials in order to keep it cheap. Like I said before, we cannot needlessly speculate. We can only wait until more information is available..

What I'm saying has been said multitudes of times by defense experts and enthusiasts alike on forums. Even you(however reluctantly) see the sense in my comments on the PAK FA. Anyone knowledgeable, looking at both PAK FA and YF 23 can see their similarities and where their priorities differed. And the focus of Sukhoi and NG surely differed WRT stealth, and looking at both of them head on, you can tell who had a higher VLO requirement.

X35:

F35:

There was always a US govt regulation on how stealthy the F35 could be since it was to be a NATO stealth fighter as well as serving the USAF, ASMC and USN. Same goes for the F15 Silent Eagle. It also couldn't be below a certain RCS figure. Surely you know all this Prada...

The US govt is quite sensitive over their international traffic in arms regulations, but looking at J31, it seems there's a reason for that.

 

[p2prada]

What I'm saying has been said multitudes of times by defense experts and enthusiasts alike on forums. Even you(however reluctantly) see the sense in my comments on the PAK FA. Anyone knowledgeable, looking at both PAK FA and YF 23 can see their similarities and where their priorities differed. And the focus of Sukhoi and NG surely differed WRT stealth, and looking at both of them head on, you can tell who had a higher VLO requirement.

That's because you are comparing PAKFA to YF-23. PAKFA is not a copy of any aircraft. Actually, as far as I can tell, I am not a big fan of "copy of this copy of that" BS. This includes Chinese aircraft.

PAKFA is a complex body and so is the YF-23. Wave behaviour on both aircraft will be different. According to Russia, PAKFA is not as stealthy as the F-22. So, YF-23 could be even more stealthy than PAKFA.

The point is all 3 are stealth aircraft. Which of these is more stealthy may not even matter after a certain threshold is reached. We don't know what is this threshold for aircraft like F-22, J-20, PAKFA, F-35 or J-31. There may be no difference between a F-22 detected at 20Km and a PAKFA detected at 40Km. At this range the OLS may detect aircraft from further away than radar.

What I am trying to say is achieving stealth by a few additional degrees won't matter.

But this does not support my point on which aircraft is more stealthy, F-35 or J-31. This is simply because I don't know and I know for a fact that these so called experts also cannot tell that for sure. The best that they can tell is both F-35 and J-31 are stealth aircraft, the same as I claimed. Especially considering they still haven't properly estimated the RCS levels of older aircraft like SR-71, F-117 and B-2.

The thing is radar shaping isn't the only parameter to stealth. Even materials used contributes to stealth. We have an extremely basic level of knowledge on shaping using open source materials and literally no information on materials. So, it is impossible even for people with PhDs and decades of experience to be able to talk about it without having worked in these fields, eg: Carlo Kopp. The so called lumps and bumps disadvantage may not even be a real factor.

There was always a US govt regulation on how stealthy the F35 could be since it was to be a NATO stealth fighter as well as serving the USAF, ASMC and USN. Same goes for the F15 Silent Eagle. It also couldn't be below a certain RCS figure. Surely you know all this Prada...

The US govt is quite sensitive over their international traffic in arms regulations, but looking at J31, it seems there's a reason for that.

I am quite sure the F-35 requirement did not consider J-31. As a matter of fact, F-35 could be a much more heavier and a more capable aircraft than the J-31 or the planned AMCA due to the weight and fuel differences. F-35 is afterall a much more capable platform than F-15 in certain aspects like empty, loaded and MTOW weights. Even internal volume for electronics along with the extra 2 tons of fuel. J-31 could be in the Rafale class.

 

[farhan_9909]

well the picture to picture comparision confirms that J-31 is longer as well as has a bigger wingspan than f-35.

 

[J20!]

Zhuhai 2012:

 

[Yijiuliuer]

so it IS aiming at exporting...

 

[shiphone]

so it IS aiming at exporting...

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although Airshow China will be open next week, more pix about the details of this AMF or Project 310 model are available....maybe some specs could be revealed as well then... source: china.com

 

[nimo_cn]

So there is going to be an export version of J10

 

[farhan_9909]

would nt this be alot better if PAF skip j-10 and rather get j-31 around 2020?

 

[mikhail]

would nt this be alot better if PAF skip j-10 and rather get j-31 around 2020?

mate hold your horses as your J-31 is still far from being complete.heck they don't even know when their J-20 will be full operational(which i think will be somewhere in 2018-19).so instead of going for an aircraft which is still in its development phase,you should rather bet your money on J-10B as its the best MRCA the chinis have built so far and is fully operational with the PLAAF!

 

[farhan_9909]

mate hold your horses as your J-31 is still far from being complete.heck they don't even know when their J-20 will be full operational(which i think will be somewhere in 2018-19).so instead of going for an aircraft which is still in its development phase,you should rather bet your money on J-10B as its the best MRCA the chinis have built so far and is fully operational with the PLAAF!

well j-31 is already put on display in zhuhai airshow for export

J-31 might enter service before j-20.
We already will have three types of 4th gen fighter..so its better we skip j-10 and better go for j-31 in future when it is inducted

4th gen
F-16
JFT I and II
4.5th gen
JFT III

no need of j-10.when a better option like j-31 is available..still in development bt we can wait.
and as a stop gap measure.go for some serious upgrade in JFT III

 

[Blackwater]

well j-31 is already put on display in zhuhai airshow for export

J-31 might enter service before j-20.
We already will have three types of 4th gen fighter..so its better we skip j-10 and better go for j-31 in future when it is inducted

4th gen
F-16
JFT I and II
4.5th gen
JFT III

no need of j-10.when a better option like j-31 is available..still in development bt we can wait.
and as a stop gap measure.go for some serious upgrade in JFT III

Free me jo mil jai le lo, nakhare mat karo