Is Air force capable of Two Front War?

AOE

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While it's good to prepare for a possible two front war with China and Pakistan, the possibility of this happening is slim. During the war in 1971, China abandoned helping Pakistan and even helped Bangladesh gain its independence. A bit paradoxical, but this points out that a unified effort against India might be unlikely.

If such a scenario were to happen, I think its worth pointing out that India going alone against two enemies (one of which is currently stronger than India) is not something India could take on easily, to say the least. Such a conflict would stretch the Indian armed forces considerably, especially when you consider the total number of planes on either side, and the Chinese navy present in the Indian Ocean could become a problem.

Wouldn't this potential scenario boost the possibility of India gaining stronger diplomatic relations elsewhere, such as Europe or America? The PRC aren't popular in either camp, and Americas staunch anti-communism as well as being in the number one position in terms of technology, defense, and GDP would make it an ideal candidate.
 

SHASH2K2

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While it's good to prepare for a possible two front war with China and Pakistan, the possibility of this happening is slim. During the war in 1971, China abandoned helping Pakistan and even helped Bangladesh gain its independence. A bit paradoxical, but this points out that a unified effort against India might be unlikely.

If such a scenario were to happen, I think its worth pointing out that India going alone against two enemies (one of which is currently stronger than India) is not something India could take on easily, to say the least. Such a conflict would stretch the Indian armed forces considerably, especially when you consider the total number of planes on either side, and the Chinese navy present in the Indian Ocean could become a problem.

Wouldn't this potential scenario boost the possibility of India gaining stronger diplomatic relations elsewhere, such as Europe or America? The PRC aren't popular in either camp, and Americas staunch anti-communism as well as being in the number one position in terms of technology, defense, and GDP would make it an ideal candidate.
AOE china's economic and military might is much much better than what it was in 1971 . China also hesitated to Intervene at that time due to fear of direct Russian intervention. If there is any confrontation between India and Pakistan now it will impact chinese intrests in Pakistan. Gilgit baltistan and baloochistan are two such major areas. In this scenario chinese getting involved is very much possible.
 

AOE

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Interesting post. The Sino-Soviet split did occur in 1961, which would strengthen your argument, but I am skeptical of that possibility given that a war between China and Russia at the time would have been taken advantage of by the US in Vietnam, and maybe Taiwan declaring independence. The Soviets have always preferred to counter American influence in Asia, even over the split with China. Even today Russia would rather side with China against the possibility of a reunified democratic Korea.

One interesting historical point was that the Kennedy administration in 1963 vowed to attack China if it opened up another border conflict with India, even escalating the conflict to a nuclear one. Who is to say that the US wouldn't at least indirectly come to the aid of India if war happened tomorrow?
 

SHASH2K2

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Interesting post. The Sino-Soviet split did occur in 1961, which would strengthen your argument, but I am skeptical of that possibility given that a war between China and Russia at the time would have been taken advantage of by the US in Vietnam, and maybe Taiwan declaring independence. The Soviets have always preferred to counter American influence in Asia, even over the split with China. Even today Russia would rather side with China against the possibility of a reunified democratic Korea.

One interesting historical point was that the Kennedy administration in 1963 vowed to attack China if it opened up another border conflict with India, even escalating the conflict to a nuclear one. Who is to say that the US wouldn't at least indirectly come to the aid of India if war happened tomorrow?
In that case I would say that its fear of both Russia and America that force chinese to maintain a neutral stance in Indian confrontation with China . Russians would have intervened to protect their ally India and also Its geopolitics . Americans would have intervened to protect china from expanding its influence. Biggest factor against china was that their military might was not in same league with America and Russia. Russia and America were enemies but I am sure they would have had consensus in avoiding emergence of a 3rd player that may threaten their dominance.
 

AOE

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Then that poses a bigger problem. What happens if China is dealt with, and India takes its place as number 3? Would both Russia and the US treat India as a potential enemy as they are treating China now, or will it be the opposite that both will try to win over India? Maybe India will become distanced with Russia due to it leaning towards the west, or the opposite because the US can't seem to get relations due to the fact it doesn't want the possibility of its technology somehow getting in the hands of the Russians?

I guess with all possibilities considered, much of the decision of where India stands in the future will largely come down to its own decision of where it stands in world politics. If it becomes too self-interested, it could possibly take the place of China in 50 or so years time.
 

cw2005

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Then that poses a bigger problem. What happens if China is dealt with, and India takes its place as number 3? Would both Russia and the US treat India as a potential enemy as they are treating China now, or will it be the opposite that both will try to win over India? Maybe India will become distanced with Russia due to it leaning towards the west, or the opposite because the US can't seem to get relations due to the fact it doesn't want the possibility of its technology somehow getting in the hands of the Russians?

I guess with all possibilities considered, much of the decision of where India stands in the future will largely come down to its own decision of where it stands in world politics. If it becomes too self-interested, it could possibly take the place of China in 50 or so years time.
Every country is self-interested in the world politics. No one is doing anything for nothing. Are you trying to tell us .AU is an exception?
 

SHASH2K2

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Every country is self-interested in the world politics. No one is doing anything for nothing. Are you trying to tell us .AU is an exception?
he is just presenting his thoughts on geopolitics . He is neither pro or anti any country.
 

AOE

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Certainly not, and I never said anything about Australia. I can tell you right now that one of the things that my country does at present that makes me worried is the fact that it sells uranium and iron ore to the highest bidder, and that needs to change. My point here is that despite the obviousness of every regional or super power in the world at present having at least some element of self-interest, currently the US is at the forefront for trying to bring down the last remaining communist and theocratic states, but slowly doing so. People forget and I think it has been mentioned already, the fact the US is number one in terms of GDP/defense/technology has been beneficial to the world, as it has been a country that has spent a large part of the last century bringing down and opposing fascist, communist, theocratic, and colonial powers. India has had conflicts with countries that fall into those categories, as well as being a democratic potential super power in the region, if anything the US and Indians share a cause outside security interests.
 
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SHASH2K2

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Then that poses a bigger problem. What happens if China is dealt with, and India takes its place as number 3? Would both Russia and the US treat India as a potential enemy as they are treating China now, or will it be the opposite that both will try to win over India? Maybe India will become distanced with Russia due to it leaning towards the west, or the opposite because the US can't seem to get relations due to the fact it doesn't want the possibility of its technology somehow getting in the hands of the Russians?

I guess with all possibilities considered, much of the decision of where India stands in the future will largely come down to its own decision of where it stands in world politics. If it becomes too self-interested, it could possibly take the place of China in 50 or so years time.
In geoplotics no one is permanent friend and enemy . Its the national interest that's permanent. India though aligned with diffrent world powers always had independent foreign policy and in future this will definitely create some uncomfortable moments with USA as its not used to that from its friends and allies. Moreover Indians are not so aggressive militarily in its neighborhood. we have only two enemies in our neighborhood . one is pakistan due to destiny andother is China is by its own choice. Once India become strong militarily there will be a diffrent attitude towards us for sure . Maybe china will change its attitude and decide to be more friendly.
 

AOE

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In geoplotics no one is permanent friend and enemy . Its the national interest that's permanent. India though aligned with diffrent world powers always had independent foreign policy and in future this will definitely create some uncomfortable moments with USA as its not used to that from its friends and allies. Moreover Indians are not so aggressive militarily in its neighborhood. we have only two enemies in our neighborhood . one is pakistan due to destiny andother is China is by its own choice. Once India become strong militarily there will be a diffrent attitude towards us for sure . Maybe china will change its attitude and decide to be more friendly.
You could be right, but given the kinds of views that the PRC subscribes to; it's anti-democratic, anti-capitalist, anti-human rights, etc... it sees any non-communist country as an enemy that has to be destroyed either now or at a future date. This is the legacy handed down by Mao, that his ultimate goal was to bring down the US and democracy in general. India to the CCP represents 'bourgeoisie capitalism' and even if it reversed its behavior 180 degrees now, it's only a matter of time when they will go back to reliving the 1962 war except full scale, and sponsoring anti-governmental communists in India to seize power. It would just wait for the day the US is defeated and no longer can fight China, and perhaps even the same for Russia, Japan, EU, etc... for it to finally be in the right position to take on India unhampered.

That is the lesson of history with totalitarian governments. The Soviet Union never went to war with America because it knew at the end of the day, and even with Chinas help; the whole world would jump down its throat, and of course the possibility of a nuclear war would become increasingly plausible. They are cold and calculating opportunists similar to the fascists of WWII, taking land and resources slowly until it comes to a point where the world only acts when it is almost too late, and tens of millions of people are killed in an ensuing world war. Communism claims to be the antithesis of imperialism and colonialism, but it was born out of such acts and continues doing them to this day. Communists claimed to be anti-religious, but its very institutions and practices makes its supreme leaders look like saints, prophets, gods, while carrying out blasphemy trials and witch hunts for those who would disagree with the politburo and 'the dear leader.' Communists preach against capitalism and western culture, yet their entire existence now depends on the cultural influence of both. They have and always will be cunning and deceitful, and The CCP were trained and stationed in China by Stalin, just as the Soviet Union would have never existed had it not been for the German Colonial Empire and Austria-Hungary funding the fall of the Romanov dynasty in Russia, during the First World War when the Germans were winning (until the allies starting pushing back the western front). The communists will prop up and support dozens of dictatorships around the world in a few years if they see an opportunity where they are winning against democratic powers, exactly like what happened after the Vietnam War and during the 1980s.

China does need to be contained, and the more hands on deck that participate to ally against them will prevent them from acts of aggression against any of its neighbours or foreign states. Such a move could help bring about an end to communism since China represents the last major basion of it in the world, which would bring the world one step closer to world peace. China could eventually become a democracy later and still retain its image as a major player on the world stage, and help to bring the world closer to peace. Of course this is somewhat idealistic, but it is a possibilty in the long term. India can play a part in this, and would benefit greatly from it. It's only idealistic because people are complacent and prone to moral equivalency in this world, and sometimes are unwilling to fight until a major tyrannical enemy confronts them.
 

p2prada

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The Chinese will fight India to the last Pakistani. Nothing more.
 

AOE

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How do you you know that to be true? Sure they will fight to keep Pakistan alive, but you forget that they see India rising as a potential super power to a problem. Did China care about Pakistan in 1962?
 

ace009

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You could be right, but given the kinds of views that the PRC subscribes to; it's anti-democratic, anti-capitalist, anti-human rights, etc... it sees any non-communist country as an enemy that has to be destroyed either now or at a future date. This is the legacy handed down by Mao, that his ultimate goal was to bring down the US and democracy in general. India to the CCP represents 'bourgeoisie capitalism' and even if it reversed its behavior 180 degrees now, it's only a matter of time when they will go back to reliving the 1962 war except full scale, and sponsoring anti-governmental communists in India to seize power. It would just wait for the day the US is defeated and no longer can fight China, and perhaps even the same for Russia, Japan, EU, etc... for it to finally be in the right position to take on India unhampered.
OK - first let me point out a few errors in your statement ...
1. CCP is NOT "anti-capitalist" - actually it is one of the MOST capitalistic nations in the world at this moment Surprise!). Reason? If you look at the first half of the definition of capitalism,"Definition of CAPITALISM: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism).", then PRC has more private investments in it's economy than any other country (except for the USA), and in the last 25 years, capital investment in the PRC is even more than that in the USA. Now as for the second half of the definition, although it is the "state" which determines the prices and distribution of goods in PRC, actually the prices, production etc is all determined by private decisions albeit by foreign investors and a few rich chinese (even CCP members). So, in effect, China is a disguised capitalistic country, impersonating a communist economy.
2. As for waiting for the USA to be destroyed and then attacking India (or Russia or Japan), seems ludicrous. Firstly, USA is the biggest export source for China. Japan is number 2, EU is number 3 and Russia/ India are also in the top 10 export partners for the Chinese. "destruction" of any of these countries will not bode well for the PRC at all.
3. The CCP turned around 180 degrees economically and international-relations wise a long long time ago (1978), soon after Mao died. In fact, the current state of PRC is as far removed from Mao era PRC as you can imagine with CCP remaining in power.
All of which sheds serious doubts on your later analyses.
 

p2prada

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How do you you know that to be true? Sure they will fight to keep Pakistan alive, but you forget that they see India rising as a potential super power to a problem. Did China care about Pakistan in 1962?
The observation was first made by a Canadian Colonel of Chinese Origin. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

At current military strength the Chinese cannot beat us. We have the advantage in case of war and the terrain is a great equializer.

A small border war will not undermine India's efforts to become a superpower or at the very least a global power.

China will not waste it's time fighting for a bunch of rocks. The war in 1962 was more to do with teaching India a lesson than anything else. The Chinese have more pressing matters to deal with and the current status quo is to their benefit.
 

AOE

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I see your point p2prada, I guess China sees the US and its east asian allies as the foremost issue.

Ace009:

1. China still churns out propaganda about the west, including capitalism. The reason China today has any sort of system that is capitalistic is thanks to Zhou Enlai/Deng Xiaoping, the latter of which formed his arguments a long the lines of 'just because the capitalists do it doesn't mean it's against communism', and ever since they've maintained a quasi-capitalist system. In reality, the description you put to Chinas economic and political picture is in reverse; a communist state with a capitalist disguise or exterior.

2. This was hypothetical, but it is a realistic picture of how the communists have operated historically and in the present, even if they just invade a country to 'teach it a lesson.' <- It's still imperialism, just in a different form.

3. See above two points. It also isn't as far removed as you're saying, since we still had Tiannanmin Square, and the launching of Chinese missiles into the Taiwan strait during the Taiwanese elections in the mid 90s; to which the Americans responded by sailing aircraft carriers closer to China.
 

cw2005

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Communism or Capitalism, the ultimate purpose of any political system is to bring goodness to the people under the system. You would notice the Capitalism today is not the one before. Same is true to the communism. Both are evolving.

China and India are taking different routes. In China, they want to improve the living condition first followed by giving more freedom to Chinese while India is the other way round. Of course China has a lot of problem but so is India and everybody else.

When I was young, my professor in England said "Democracy is just like a sharp knife, give it to a skillful person, he might use it to create valuable artifacts. But give it to a child, he would hurt himself". Democracy, to be successful, depends on the level of awareness of the people, the discipline of people, the education level and whether the more pressing needs such as food, housing, healthcare, education etc have been satisfied.

You are just luckier than many other fellow human beings.
 

Kunal Biswas

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When I was young, my professor in England said "Democracy is just like a sharp knife, give it to a skillful person, he might use it to create valuable artifacts. But give it to a child, he would hurt himself". Democracy, to be successful, depends on the level of awareness of the people, the discipline of people, the education level and whether the more pressing needs such as food, housing, healthcare, education etc have been satisfied.

You are just luckier than many other fellow human beings.

Going Defensive, U r Bot aren't u.. ?

Who u r calling on...

Democracy have lots of meaning, Certainly its not practical everywhere but it suits in this country..
 

AOE

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It is practical everywhere, some places just take a lot longer than others. Afghanistan is probably the biggest test for democracy imaginable, as that country has culturally stood still for a millenium, and will take a long time for people there to throw down the culture of religious extremism and tribalism, and instead try to develop wealth and prosperity for their own country.

China has a much better possibility to become democratic, because there are already movements within that country to make it happen. If the communists here think China is prosperous now, wait until it has a real capitalist and democratic system; it would remain in the top 10 economic countries for centuries to come; yet give its people more freedom and human rights at the same time.
 
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civfanatic

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The observation was first made by a Canadian Colonel of Chinese Origin. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

At current military strength the Chinese cannot beat us. We have the advantage in case of war and the terrain is a great equializer.

A small border war will not undermine India's efforts to become a superpower or at the very least a global power.

China will not waste it's time fighting for a bunch of rocks. The war in 1962 was more to do with teaching India a lesson than anything else. The Chinese have more pressing matters to deal with and the current status quo is to their benefit.
Spot on.

The chances of another Sino-Indian War are about as high as Pakistan sending a man to space.
 

ace009

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It is practical everywhere, some places just take a lot longer than others. Afghanistan is probably the biggest test for democracy imaginable, as that country has culturally stood still for a millenium, and will take a long time for people there to throw down the culture of religious extremism and tribalism, and instead try to develop wealth and prosperity for their own country.

China has a much better possibility to become democratic, because there are already movements within that country to make it happen. If the communists here think China is prosperous now, wait until it has a real capitalist and democratic system; it would remain in the top 10 economic countries for centuries to come; yet give its people more freedom and human rights at the same time.
Firstly, you and I have the opposite ways of looking at China. You think it is basically communists disguising as capitalists, I think it is a bunch of capitalists hiding behind a communist mask.
On the other hand, democracy is definitely useful for everyone, but maynot be possible for everyone. People still caught in a Feudalistic mindset, like in Afghanistan (or Saudi Arabia), it might not be tenable.
 

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