INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

INSAS weight can be reduce so does length and can have all gizmos like this new rifles have, the upgrade will take few hours in civil..
 

Waffen SS

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

The new assault rifles for India should have 3 qualities-

1)They must be cheap,so we can equip our all soldiers with it.
2)Should be effective
3)Should be reliable.

INSAS is cheap and had some problems,they are now fixed according to DRDO,but it is not effective.Semi-automatics became obsolete by 1980's.The rifles suggested above are effective and reliable but not cheap.
So after considering all I think AKM or FM FAL is best.

Range is not a huge factor,most of combats happened within 100 meters.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

It has burst mode and better than full-auto, Semi-auto is what most use in a combat..

AKM is not accurate nor 7.62 m43 is good as new generation 5.56mm, SLR = Stupid long rifle and its heavy and oily..

========================

My view is pimp up INSAS & Get new 77gr 5.56mm ammo, All issue will be solved..

INSAS is cheap and had some problems,they are now fixed according to DRDO,but it is not effective.Semi-automatics became obsolete by 1980's.The rifles suggested above are effective and reliable but not cheap.
So after considering all I think AKM or FM FAL is best.

Range is not a huge factor,most of combats happened within 100 meters.
 

sayareakd

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

If full auto verison is given to soldier he tend to go for full auto at the fist target and any thing that move on enemy side. Each solduer is given 100 bullets, so whole ammo will be usd on 5-8 targets. Semi auto will have same ammo for 30-40 targets. Therefore we have to supply our soldiers again and again.

Soldiers are skilled and they have taught one enemy one bullet rule, at max 3 bullet bust.


Price of new rifles are super expensive with their scopes about 1.5 times costly then the rifles. I think price would easly go for $2000 for rifle alone as L1 bid and scope etc.
 

Waffen SS

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Nope,burst mode is not effective.

3 round burst means if you pull trigger for 1 time then 2 or 3 bullets will be fired and if they hit target they will hit that in same point.If 1st round of those 3 hits human body then it will make a hole in human body and will pierce it due to high muzzle velocity and then Will go through it.And then remaining 2 bullets which will come INSTANTLY in same line will just follow the the hole created by 1st bullet,and will go through that.So we can see in this case human body will get hit for only 1 time,by the first bullet out of 3,and it will hit the body will make a hole in human body others will simply follow and go through that.

So the theory of using burst mode will let 3 bullets to go into in same target point,is not truth.

It may sound ridiculous but this is what I found.

And semi-automatic is not good in close range combat,you can also use full automatic mode if you pull trigger slowly just like semi-auto,and if in necessity in full auto mode.

How many magazines will you receive it depends on each mission,today standard magazines have 30 round capacity.And soldiers dont carry extra pouches of bullets,they only carry bullets that are loaded in magazines,so the theory of soldiers can carry more rounds if they have light 5.56 than heavier 7.62 is not true.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

It happens i use INSAS & AKM and i know about firearms & I am quoting you not to correct you, But there are things which simple false about what you believe..

Firstly, There is no theory that three bullets passing through body at once nor anyone here claim so, Rifles such as INSAS / M16 / M4 have gas regulator which can be adjust for rate of fire, It better if round hit over different places in burst..



Secondly, People die not because of bullet makes holes but, Its the shear hydrostatic force ( remote wounding ) which blast out any tissue in few cms of that part of the body that can be anyone arteries or organ, 5.56mm ( 62 gr / 64gr / 77gr ) do lot more damge in yaw of bullet also, From such wounds people dont visit Hospital but Morgue..

Third is, In IA a regular receives 22 x 4 = 88rnds of OFB 64gr 5.56mm ammo as fixed, Over all weight of the mags are important , 4 mag of Insas weight lot lesser than 4 mag of AK or FAL, Hence reducing overall weight of the solider`s fighting package which benefits the soliders..

These are few fundamentals only..

Nope, is not true.
 

Waffen SS

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Secondly, People die not because of bullet makes holes but, Its the shear hydrostatic force ( remote wounding ) which blast out any tissue in few cms of that part of the body that can be anyone arteries or organ, 5.56mm ( 62 gr / 64gr / 77gr ) do lot more damge in yaw of bullet also, From such wounds people dont visit Hospital but Morgue...
Sir,thank you.

I know people dont die not for holes created by bullets in human body.But when a bullet creates a hole then it automatically blows up the body part of that point on it's way.If there is artery it will be cut,if there is organ it will be cut to pieces,but I said more you manage to hit enemy soldier's body in multiple points,you can more do damage against his body parts.It will damage his more body parts.Causing more blood lose.Increasing his possibility of death.
So hitting same body point with 3 rounds is not better than hitting different body parts with multiple bullets.

But possibility of hitting same body point using burst mode is very high.
 
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rocky balboa

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Burstfire also helps in piercing armour plates to some extent
 

JBH22

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

1. INSAS cost 450$ each..
2. INSAS is used by SF in all three wings..
3. INSAS is better than AK..
4. INSAS range is 650ms with Scopes, 400ms with Naked eyes..
5. Indian Police use INSAS in mass, It differ to state to state..

========================

Today AK/AKM used in CT coz of lack of Carbines, AK/AKM is used mainly for Spray and Pray..
I don't agree with this statement.
We had several "complaints" against iNSAS on the following accounts made by eminent army person including Gen VK Singh;

1-INSAS was made for defensive warfare with a straight line fire
2-The 5.56mm was not suited to kill tangos into COIN ops.
3-expensive compared to an ak-74
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

You dont coz you dont use, Simple as that..

I am not very much into outdated stories & theories coz there are too many repetition of same crap people come with...

When people talk about this that 5.56mm is not for kill, they dont know much about 5.56mm, There are many kind of 5.56mm and the one India use is more lethal than NATO, When introduce it used SS109 Nato rounds which were lighter and not capable of killing, Now INSAS use OFB 64gr 5.56mm ammo from its 18.3inch barrel and kills..

I bet 3o3 is cheaper than INSAS 1B1..

=======================================

Gen VK Singh Sir, praised INSAS design, And only said it was not develop further which is mainly cosmetic upgrades as today`s modern Rifle does, There is absolutely no Major change in these Rifles..

Note INSAS discussion from : 59sec - 3:00mins
This competition is just another scam underway, a pimp up Insas with New Generation ammo will do the job just fine..

I don't agree with this statement.
We had several "complaints" against iNSAS on the following accounts made by eminent army person including Gen VK Singh;

1-INSAS was made for defensive warfare with a straight line fire
2-The 5.56mm was not suited to kill tangos into COIN ops.
3-expensive compared to an ak-74
 
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sayareakd

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

I don't agree with this statement.
We had several "complaints" against iNSAS on the following accounts made by eminent army person including Gen VK Singh;

1-INSAS was made for defensive warfare with a straight line fire

2-The 5.56mm was not suited to kill tangos into COIN ops.
3-expensive compared to an ak-74
any operational rifle which is used without straight line of fire ???
 

JBH22

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

any operational rifle which is used without straight line of fire ???
What Gen VK Singh meant that INSAS is a rifle with a flat trajectory not like AK where you get to spray bullets.
Check the video Kunal posted
 

JBH22

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

You dont coz you dont use, Simple as that..

I am not very much into outdated stories & theories coz there are too many repetition of same crap people come with...

When people talk about this that 5.56mm is not for kill, they dont know much about 5.56mm, There are many kind of 5.56mm and the one India use is more lethal than NATO, When introduce it used SS109 Nato rounds which were lighter and not capable of killing, Now INSAS use OFB 64gr 5.56mm ammo from its 18.3inch barrel and kills..

I bet 3o3 is cheaper than INSAS 1B1..

=======================================

Gen VK Singh Sir, praised INSAS design, And only said it was not develop further which is mainly cosmetic upgrades as today`s modern Rifle does, There is absolutely no Major change in these Rifles..



This competition is just another scam underway, a pimp up Insas with New Generation ammo will do the job just fine..
I met Navy guys they said its a rifle with a good range.

Reportedly INSAS is not suited for COIN ops, whatever the "scam" in the makings we all know that to equip the army with these new rifles will take decades hence INSAS is here for a some years to come.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Lets hope for the good..
 

pmaitra

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

What Gen VK Singh meant that INSAS is a rifle with a flat trajectory not like AK where you get to spray bullets.
Check the video Kunal posted
It's not about spraying bullets. It's about the velocity. The INSAS 5.56 mm rounds go much faster than NATO 5.56 mm rounds, and thus, do not have the tumble effect once it enters the human body tissue, and thus leaves a "clean wound," and the target is able to run away. This is one bad side to a very powerful and small round. On the other hand, this very quality allows it to "penetrate NATO standard armour." So, a faster bullet will have a less parabolic trajectory, compared to an AK. The Gen. did not say anything about spraying.
 

JBH22

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

It's not about spraying bullets. It's about the velocity. The INSAS 5.56 mm rounds go much faster than NATO 5.56 mm rounds, and thus, do not have the tumble effect once it enters the human body tissue, and thus leaves a "clean wound," and the target is able to run away. This is one bad side to a very powerful and small round. On the other hand, this very quality allows it to "penetrate NATO standard armour." So, a faster bullet will have a less parabolic trajectory, compared to an AK. The Gen. did not say anything about spraying.
Unlike the tumbling effect of the AK-74 poison bullet 5.45mm

thanks for the explanation :)
 

DivineHeretic

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

You dont coz you dont use, Simple as that..

I am not very much into outdated stories & theories coz there are too many repetition of same crap people come with...

When people talk about this that 5.56mm is not for kill, they dont know much about 5.56mm, There are many kind of 5.56mm and the one India use is more lethal than NATO, When introduce it used SS109 Nato rounds which were lighter and not capable of killing, Now INSAS use OFB 64gr 5.56mm ammo from its 18.3inch barrel and kills..

I bet 3o3 is cheaper than INSAS 1B1..

=======================================

Gen VK Singh Sir, praised INSAS design, And only said it was not develop further which is mainly cosmetic upgrades as today`s modern Rifle does, There is absolutely no Major change in these Rifles..



This competition is just another scam underway, a pimp up Insas with New Generation ammo will do the job just fine..
INSAS is as good as any other 5.56 mm Rifle, especially the newer batches, in terms of accuracy and reliability. Nearly all the faults have been removed, and yes, so has the irritating orange furniture. The only problems, the soldiers point out is the fustration with the semi-transparent magazines, which btw have been fixed in newer ones but they are entering the logistics supply stock, and are not with the forces.

There is also the lack of new gen sights that troops would love to have. (Its not Insas's fault but the GOI not buying enough sights)

But, just to add to your points, its not only the bullet that makes all the difference between a kill and a wound.

The barrel of the gun is just as important, and maybe even more so. The twist ratio is a very important parameter in determining the accuracy and damage of the bullet, as well as the stability of the bullet.

As for the bullet itself, what people don't know about the 5.56 is this....

-in 1962 another 1,000 AR-15s were sent to South Vietnam.[30]Special Operations-units and advisers working with the South Vietnamese troops filed battlefield reports lavishly praising the AR-15 and the stopping effectiveness of the 5.56-mm cartridge, and pressed for its adoption.

However, what no one knew, except the men directly using the AR-15s in Vietnam, were the devastating kills made by the new rifle, photographs of which, showing enemy casualties made by the .223 (5.56-mm) bullet remained classified into the 1980s.

]Of the cartridges tendered, the 5.56×45mm NATO was successful, but not the 55-gr M193 round used by the U.S. at that time. The wounds produced by the M193 round were so devastating that many-consider it to be inhumane.

Instead, the Belgian 62-gr SS109 round was chosen for standardization. The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel core and had a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters. This requirement made the SS109 (M855) round less capable of fragmentation than the M193 and was considered more humane.

If the army wants devastating damage to the opponent, they can switch to the 55gr or even the 77gr.
 
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pmaitra

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Unlike the tumbling effect of the AK-74 poison bullet 5.45mm

thanks for the explanation :)
You are welcome.

5.56 mm will have the tumbling effect, if it is the NATO US Army issue bullet, which is less powerful (the INSAS can fire that).

We don't really have to look at the Soviet 5.45 mm bullet. That is a good bullet, but I am not in favour of increasing our already diverse inventory.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Regarding the barrel details :

1. INSAS 1B1 barrel is chromed lined..
2. It is a 18.3 inch long barrel
3. It has 1 in 7.8inch rifle twist to use heavy bullets such as 64gr OFB round or 77gr 5.56mm..

Its barrel is best and common with all these RFI contenders..

The barrel of the gun is just as important, and maybe even more so. The twist ratio is a very important parameter in determining the accuracy and damage of the bullet, as well as the stability of the bullet.
 

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