INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

sasum

Atheist but not Communists.
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They did not make any in roads in tribal areas.
I never said Chinese soldiers made inroads into tribal areas..their ideology made inroads. Naxalbari, N. Bengal came into Maoist influence and gave birth to CPI ( Maoist-Leninist). It was just a replica of violent peasant movement of China albeit on a smaller scale....spread quickly to rest of W. Bengal, Bihar, Orissa and some districts of Andhra.
In 1962, Chinese occupied NEFA ( then Arunachal) as they considered Tawang Valley as lower Tibet. Defeated Indian Soldiers fled to Bhutan to save their lives.
As for bombing of Kolkata, yes you are right. It is Japanese who bombed the city during WW-II, not Chinese.
 

no smoking

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who says "take on" China.
We play a game of Brinkmanship.
like
"Oh look we are building a naval base on our most preffered ally Vietnam"
For e.g Uncle sam has bases all around east asia,but he doesnt take a confrontationary stance directly.

anyway like you said no govt will build a base there.Pussies.
Well, your governments are not pussy, they are just smarter than you.
There is no significant strategic interest in Vietnam which is worth the deployment of an Indian AC fleet or a military base. Vietnam is not your top 3 trading partner, neither she supplies any critical resource. They have no intention or means to pay you back. Worst of worse, they don't even want to play any role of counterbalance China. So, basically, they want everything for free.


Then, what is your fleet sailing there for? Purely protect Vietnamese interest?
 

harsh

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Navy plans Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) for INS Vishal (IAC-2) and Indigenous Nuclear Attack Submarines
Published April 22, 2016

It’s more or less official now that Indian Navy has planned to adopt next-generation propulsion systems for all its future principal surface combatants and underwater Nuclear Attack Submarines (SSN) projects.Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) or Integrated full electric propulsion (IFEP) has been finally zeroed in to be integrated into the upcoming project like India’s second indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-2), the INS Vishal.

IEP eliminates the mechanical connection between the engines and the propulsion which in turn reduces need for clutches and even Gear Box , Advantage of IEP for Surface ships has many advantages like reduction of weight and volume, Reduction in acoustic signatures,better placement of engines in the hull and reduced manpower for its maintenance .

The United Kingdom and the United States are leading in the adoption of Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) for their surface ships and have integrated IEPS in ships like Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, and US Navies DDG 1000 Zumwalt-class destroyers and will see Navies around the world adopting IEPs Said Industrial experts to idrw.org .

India’s first indigenous carrier 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant will be propelled by four GE LM2500+ gas turbines in a conventional COGAG (combined gas and gas) configuration, providing 90 MW of power to two shafts through gearboxes supplied by Elecon Engineering, with electrical power for ship and weapon systems provided by diesel generators.

Well, informed Sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that planned Four Project 15B Destroyers and Seven Project 17A frigates will be excluded and IEPs will be adopted in future combat Ships and Submarines .
 

Indx TechStyle

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Navy plans Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) for INS Vishal (IAC-2) and Indigenous Nuclear Attack Submarines
Published April 22, 2016

It’s more or less official now that Indian Navy has planned to adopt next-generation propulsion systems for all its future principal surface combatants and underwater Nuclear Attack Submarines (SSN) projects.Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) or Integrated full electric propulsion (IFEP) has been finally zeroed in to be integrated into the upcoming project like India’s second indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC-2), the INS Vishal.

IEP eliminates the mechanical connection between the engines and the propulsion which in turn reduces need for clutches and even Gear Box , Advantage of IEP for Surface ships has many advantages like reduction of weight and volume, Reduction in acoustic signatures,better placement of engines in the hull and reduced manpower for its maintenance .

The United Kingdom and the United States are leading in the adoption of Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) for their surface ships and have integrated IEPS in ships like Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, and US Navies DDG 1000 Zumwalt-class destroyers and will see Navies around the world adopting IEPs Said Industrial experts to idrw.org .

India’s first indigenous carrier 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant will be propelled by four GE LM2500+ gas turbines in a conventional COGAG (combined gas and gas) configuration, providing 90 MW of power to two shafts through gearboxes supplied by Elecon Engineering, with electrical power for ship and weapon systems provided by diesel generators.

Well, informed Sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that planned Four Project 15B Destroyers and Seven Project 17A frigates will be excluded and IEPs will be adopted in future combat Ships and Submarines .
Will INS Vishal be nuclear powered? o_O
 

Indx TechStyle

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Plan for nuclear-driven carrier with US help
The INS Vikrant​
Goa, May 15: India's navy has all but finalised plans for a nuclear-powered super-carrier, which is scheduled to be built in Kochi with US help.
In preparation for the long-gestation project, estimated for the year 2028, the navy is setting up the building blocks that will identify the aircraft to be based on the carrier, called the Vishal (to be pre-fixed with "INS" on commissioning).
Nuclear energy enables a carrier to sail for months without needing to dock for refuelling. The navy wants a nuclear-powered carrier for "longer sea legs", to enhance its reach beyond territorial waters.
It has determined that the carrier will need a nuclear reactor generating 180MW for propulsion, and may go for two reactors of 90MW each. Talks with the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (Barc) are at an advanced stage.
The Vishal is being designed to be between 60,000 and 70,000 tonnes. (India's first carrier, the INS Vikrant, displaced 18,000 tonnes. The second, soon-to-be decommissioned INS Viraat, 24,000 tonnes. Both were of British origin. The operational INS Vikramaditya displaces 45,000 tonnes. It is of Russian origin.)
The navy has bolstered its case for a nuclear-powered carrier by citing the nuclear deals India has signed not only with the US but also with Japan and Germany, albeit for peaceful uses of nuclear technology.
The navy chief said in Goa earlier this week that the government was yet to freeze the design and specifications for the Vishal.
In official papers, the Vishal is described as the IAC (indigenous aircraft carrier) II. The IAC I, called the Vikrant after India's now-decommissioned first carrier, is due in 2018. It was launched in 2014.
"We are setting up the naval test flying team in INS Hansa to evaluate potential and future aircraft: to evaluate everything from aircraft to weapons," said Commodore Raghunath Nair, commanding officer of naval air station Hansa.
"The navy now has 240 aircraft but not enough infrastructure. We are finding an energetic response from the government to the plans."
The navy had invited preliminary inquiries from foreign entities for the design and development of the Vishal: DCNS of France, Rosoboronexport of Russia, Lockheed Martin of the US. Within the top brass, however, there is now a congealing of opinion that the US option may be the one to go after.
This is as much because of the technology regime that India promises to enter following the nuclear deals as because the US is actually operating carriers and building them, the latest being the Gerald R Ford class.
"We've practically written the carrier operations manual for the Russians," said one officer. He pointed to the Russian navy ordering the MiG29K fighter aircraft after India bought the planes from them.
The MiG29K are now operational with the INS Vikramaditya (the Admiral Gorshkov, which too was bought from Russia).
The Chinese, who also reconverted a Russian vessel to get their carrier, the Liaoning, are yet to commission the vessel.
"We have an institutionalised memory of carrier operations since 1961. Of this much we are sure - we are far ahead of the Russians and Chinese in carrier operations. But now it is time we go for the new carriers. And the US is practically the only one building them," the officer said.
India and the US have a joint working group on sharing, and possibly co-producing, the electromagnetic aircraft launch system that is going into the USS Gerald R Ford.
"In the Arihant (the Indian nuclear submarine now in sea trials) we have gained, with some Russian help, the ability to develop a reactor for our purpose. Barc is confident that it can build for the carrier too," the officer said.
In February, the US chief of naval operations, John Richardson, had said about talks with India that "we are making very good progress".
"I am very pleased with the progress to date and optimistic we can do more in the future. That's on a very solid track," Richardson had added.
The Indian navy is fairly certain that it does not want the indigenously built light combat aircraft (navy) for the Vishal. The IAC II has been planned as a catobar (catapult-assisted take-off and arrested recovery) that would launch aircraft with a catapult powered electromagnetically.
The only operational carrier now is the Vikramaditya. At 45,000 tonnes it has a flight deck that is still too small for the new dimensions of carrier operations the navy is envisaging from the Vishal, the officer said.
The light combat aircraft (navy) that has been in the making with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 25 years has only done ramp take-offs in trials so far and "no traps" (or arrested recovery) yet.
A possible fighter aircraft to be based on the Vishal would be in the category of an advanced medium combat aircraft that is being designed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment under the Defence Research and Development Organisation.
But the navy believes the advanced medium combat aircraft too would need a foreign (western) partner to make the jump from the design to the series-production stage.
 

AnantS

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^ Would be most sane decision. A follow on for Vikrant is more suited for quick and relatively cheap induction. Rest spend money on nuke/conventional submarines/LPD and new combat ships
 

rohit b3

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Hmm, rethink time already ?!

This is one of those bogus baseless article which comes up once in a while.
Vishal's plan seems to be going on full fledged and India has a long term plan for atleast 3 Carriers which is already delayed, especially when China has plans to build multiple Carriers.
India already has its Destroyers/Frigates/Submarine construction plan going as per schedule without affect the Vishal project.
 

Indx TechStyle

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This is one of those bogus baseless article which comes up once in a while.
Vishal's plan seems to be going on full fledged and India has a long term plan for atleast 3 Carriers which is already delayed, especially when China has plans to build multiple Carriers.
India already has its Destroyers/Frigates/Submarine construction plan going as per schedule without affect the Vishal project.
I don't think China gonna launch indigenous carrier before 2018.
They can match and hardly can surpass in carriers. We can easily take lead by getting momentum on project back.
 

garg_bharat

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I predicted quite some time back that nuclear carrier is too ambitious and will be cancelled.

A Vikrant copy is the most logical decision for now or LHD types. The Vishal concept is too ahead of its time.
 

MKM

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^ Would be most sane decision. A follow on for Vikrant is more suited for quick and relatively cheap induction. Rest spend money on nuke/conventional submarines/LPD and new combat ships
Or pause IAC-II for some time like five years without going to second Vikrant.
IN already has two carriers & navies which are similar in size to IN in surface & subsurface capacity don't have two carriers. I think for 2025 two carriers are enough.
Work on IAC-II can be start after 2020 or exactly in 2022 that too won't be late if inducted in 2030 or 2032 at that time size of carrier cab be increased to 100,000 tonnes.
I think IN can spend 1billion per year after 2018 on carrier but that money can be spent on decreasing subsurface strength of in sufrace combatant.
This is one of those bogus baseless article which comes up once in a while.
Vishal's plan seems to be going on full fledged and India has a long term plan for atleast 3 Carriers which is already delayed, especially when China has plans to build multiple Carriers.
India already has its Destroyers/Frigates/Submarine construction plan going as per schedule without affect the Vishal project.
Which submarine project is on schedule?
P75? No, P75I? no, ATV? no, SSN? No. 2nd Akula? Not coming.
& also frigate last frigate was inducted in 2012 after decommissioning three Godavari class next will be inducted in 2022.
I don't think China gonna launch indigenous carrier before 2018.
They can match and hardly can surpass in carriers. We can easily take lead by getting momentum on project back.
PLAN is already almost three times of IN, even if they have three carrier that won't matter, first match in subsurface strength.
I predicted quite some time back that nuclear carrier is too ambitious and will be cancelled.

A Vikrant copy is the most logical decision for now or LHD types. The Vishal concept is too ahead of its time.
LHD can be good considering last few years where almost everywhere navy felt lack of LHD.
Even 2nd Vikrant is too ambitious considering subsurface strength, Don't you think?
 

Indx TechStyle

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PLAN is already almost three times of IN, even if they have three carrier that won't matter, first match in subsurface strength.
Three times in numbers and slightly higher than double in terms of total displacement I guess.
 

Hari Sud

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There is nothing to worry about Chinese carriers. First they have to build them right. Copied and stolen technology does not make good carriers. Moreover the refurbished Russian carrier has not come out right. They are using it as training ship.

Hence they have to build it right, train well in its operation on high seas and finally learn to hide it from the prying eyes in the sky. All these are difficult jobs and probably take ten years for the first two and never for the last one.

Hence these Chinese made carriers will stay as coastal defence ships, scared of travelling to high seas, and no threat to India.
 

sorcerer

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Russian Storm rising: Building India’s supersized carrier
10 August 2016 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defen...ing-building-indias-supersized-carrier_619685


The Indian Navy’s second indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, will be a 65,000-ton nuclear-powered behemoth. Capable of carrying up to 55 aircraft, it will be more than 300 metres long, making it almost double the size of India’s first indigenous carrier, INS Vikrant, which is under construction.

Even as India is discussing the transfer of American technology for INS Vishal, Russia has offered its new multipurpose carrier design called Project 23000E ‘Shtorm’ (Storm). Krylov State Research Centre, a St Petersburg shipbuilding research and development institute, says its vessel has a displacement of up to 100,000 tons, is 330 meters long, and will have nuclear or conventional propulsion.

The problem is that like oil and water, Russian and American technologies don’t mix. India is keen on acquiring the US-developed electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS), which allows aircraft to take off with a much larger fuel and weapons load than what is possible on an aircraft carrier with a ski jump. But it is a foregone conclusion the Americans won’t allow India to graft EMALS on a carrier project that involves Russia.

Russian bid: Pluses and minus

The Russian shipbuilding industry has gained valuable experience building the Indian Navy’s flagship carrier, INS Vikramaditya. Moscow is also playing a lead role in designing and developing the INS Vikrant. The St Petersburg-based Nevsky Design Bureau is supplying the Aviation Facilities Complex, which comprises one of the most critical areas of an aircraft carrier and houses its aviation armament, devices and stationary and mobile systems required for using the aircraft onboard the carrier.

The Russian bid will have many backers in India’s defence establishment primarily because Moscow is willing to allow technology transfers without restrictive end-user conditions. In contrast, the other two major contenders, the French and especially the Americans, are unlikely to be so liberal with leading-edge technology.

With a Russian vessel, there won’t be any issues about carrier-based aircraft either. The Indian Navy operates the Russian MiG-29K and India is cooperating with Russia in the design and production of the Sukhoi PAK-FA stealth fighter, which will have a naval variant.

On the down side, Russia has never built a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier whereas the US operates 11 such vessels currently. (It’s not that Russia could not build nuclear powered carriers. The old Soviet naval doctrine was sea-denial and the lynchpin of this strategy was the anti-carrier nuclear-armed cruise missile launched by maritime ‘Backfire’ bombers.)

Regarding Russia’s ability to undertake a project of such scale, Dmitry Gorenburg, a research analyst at the Center for Naval Analyses in Washington, says (https://russiamil.wordpress.com/201...pbuilding-plans-rebuilding-a-blue-water-navy/) the long-running saga of the INS Vikramaditya rebuild shows the problems Russia may face as it starts to build larger and more complex ships. “Russian experts have noted that Russian shipyards could build a 60,000-70,000 ton carrier in 4-5 years, but could have difficulties if the military decides to build a larger super-carrier,” he writes.

However, this view is based on the assumption that Russian shipyards have not gained any experience from INS Vikramaditya. At any rate, if the carrier is built in India, the timelines and deadlines would be more or less under the Indian Navy’s control.

Large vs medium

For India to accept the Russian offer would mean a huge step-up from the originally envisaged displacement of 65,000 tons to the 100,000-ton ‘Storm’. According to Eric Wertheim, (https://news.usni.org/2016/07/11/russians-pitch-storm-nuclear-carrier-design-india) the author of 'Combat Fleets of the World', the odds of India needing the blue-water capability a nuclear carrier would bring are small. “If you’re looking at regional operations, then I think it makes less sense to do nuclear propulsion,” he told the US Naval Institute.

However, there’s no reason why India’s strategic reach and vision should be limited to the Indian Ocean. The new carriers are aimed at countering the growing Chinese presence in the region. If needed, Indian carriers should be able to sail out to distant trouble spots, say a major evacuation of Indians or Indian peacekeeping soldiers in Africa or Europe.

A nuclear-powered carrier can remain at sea for up to a year or more and only needs to return to port for crew rotation. It also requires less down time during maintenance as compared with a conventional powered ship. In terms of gas mileage, aircraft carriers are the biggest guzzlers of fuel. The USS Independence, (http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=593) for instance, consumes well over 567,000 litres of fuel a day. An oil importing country like India can ill afford to burn that much fuel. Nuclear powered carriers cost more to build but are more energy efficient.


Since India doesn’t plan on having more than three or four carriers at a time, it makes sense for the navy to have an all-nuclear fleet so fleet availability remains high.


Spare me the worries

While Russia is a reliable weapons supplier and can be trusted to never dangle the threat of sanctions, especially during a crisis, the supply of spares can sometimes be maddening. In fact, the problem is worrying the defence establishment to such an extent that this month the Defence Ministry called a meeting of Indian private sector companies. The meeting was held to address the problem of non-availability of spares, and was attended by senior officers from the three defence services among others.

While a number of Russian-supplied platforms, including the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, have been impacted by the trickle of spare parts, it is not known to what extent the navy is affected. However, going by the relatively smooth sailing experienced by INS Vikramaditya, the Indian Navy seems to be doing fine.

One of the bottlenecks is at Rosoboronexport, the cartel or middleman through which Russian defence companies export their wares. The solution could be to allow Indian companies to allow production of spares via technology transfers bypassing Rosoboronexport.

The Defence Ministry is mulling a tweak of the defence procurement policy in order to give firm orders to Indian companies for five years so that these firms are assured of making a profit. A project of the magnitude of the 100,000 ton ‘Storm’ would be hugely advantageous to India’s defence industry as well as the economy, and it would be in line with the ‘Make in India’ programme. Such a policy would translate into a huge number of jobs for Indian engineers and workers.

US tech

India and the US have formed a joint working group on aircraft carrier technology cooperation, but there is no clarity on whether the Americans will offer EMALS technology for Indian aircraft carriers.

EMALS certainly is a game changer. Defence News explains: http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ndia-nuclear-aircraft-carrier-storm/86937106/ “Using electromagnetic technology, the system delivers substantial improvements in system maintenance, increased reliability and efficiency, higher-launch energy capacity, and more accurate end-speed control, with a smooth acceleration at both high and low speeds. By allowing linear acceleration over time, electromagnetic catapults also place less stress on the aircraft.”

That sounds great, doesn’t it? But if the US indeed parts with EMALS technology, it would be nothing short of a miracle. And as we know, miracles happen only within fantasy books aimed at hoodwinking the gullible.


The US has refused to part with sensitive defence technology on a number of occasions. In the late 1970s, the US blocked the sale of Gripen jet fighters to India because the aircraft was powered by an American engine. This year South Korea – a close and trusted US ally – found its KFX stealth fighter in jeopardy after the Pentagon blocked the transfer of American technology that is critical to the programme.


Since India is not in the category of close ally and US lawmakers vetoed India’s elevation to such ‘twice born’ status, it remains to be seen what rabbit Washington will pull out if its hat to transfer EMALS to India.

Price of EMALS

EMALS technology will come at a price – a huge one at that. However, it won’t be what the Chinese navy’s Rear Admiral Li Jie (http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20150208000020&cid=1101&MainCatID=11) believes. According to Li, a former captain, India should take longer to consider its purchase of American technologies because the Indian Navy has a tradition of using the Russian style ski-jump flight deck. The sudden change to an angled flight deck and the use of EMALS would turn all the Indian Navy's accumulated knowledge on carrier operation into nothing, Li says.

The American style angled deck with its CATOBAR (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery) system is the most efficient way of launching – and recovering – aircraft at sea. EMALS will further enhance these efficiencies. But the point is India should not wait for the US to make up its mind about parting with its crown jewels. Besides, EMALS is still experimental and the first test launch of an aircraft won’t happen until 2017.

EMALS could come with a quid pro quo – India would be forced to accept US weapons systems and aircraft that don’t meet the Indian Navy’s requirements. One shudders to think of the implications if the disastrous F-35 is forced down the Navy’s throat.


Also, would the US allow the Indo-Russian BrahMos missile to be integrated into a US-built or assisted aircraft carrier?
The supersonic – and in future, hypersonic – BrahMos has become the Indian Navy’s signature missile. Although aircraft carriers generally do not carry strike weapons, there’s no reason why the INS Vishal can’t. So if the Indian Navy’s flagship isn’t allowed to be equipped with an extended range (1000 km) BrahMos, it would be missing out on a dramatic force multiplier.

Whether it opts for an entirely home-grown design or decides to sail with a foreign partner, the Indian Navy is in the enviable position of having plenty of suitors. How it chooses to use that leverage will decide the shape – and fate – of the INS Vishal.
 

Yumdoot

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Looks like Russians are throwing a challenge to American plants in Indian government.

Dekhtein hain Indian Right Wing kya kya le kar aata hai USA sey. Bol to bahut lete hain. Ab kuch kar ke dikhao beta ji.
 
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A chauhan

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Having a 100,000 ton AC in Arab sea can be a deciding factor in case of war, but still the question is do we really need a 100,000 ton AC ?
 

SajeevJino

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This Russia`s offer kept repeating after some time to time ..

Means we are on right track ..
Sir this bullshit rbth website repeating the same again and again

Few examples

1. Fighted for Tu 22 - 4 additional P8 signed
2. Fighteing for BMP 3 - Our FICV project is happening well
3. Fighting for IAC 2 - Carrier development group had successfully finished 2nd meeting
 

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