INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

IndianHawk

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The Vikky isn’t going anywhere until the early 2040s (when IAC-2 is ready to enter service) but the MiG-29Ks are unlikely to last more than another 10 years. From what I hear they are already struggling and it’s not a right to compare them to keeping the Bisons flying as the 29Ks are quite literally falling apart with the rigors of carrier flying. A written off airframe is a written off airframe
Their availability rate is up to 70% after spares were secured from Russia.

How is it possible to be of airframe is falling apart as you say??

Who has written off airframe??
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Their availability rate is up to 70% after spares were secured from Russia.

How is it possible to be of airframe is falling apart as you say??

Who has written off airframe??
It is indeed developing cracks. Been reported by a senior Navy officer "can't remember the name". The officer said "We paid for the development costs of MiG-29K and if the Russians have any shame they should repair the cracking airframes without asking for more money." Read it too long ago to remember more details.
 

IndianHawk

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The MiG29K is indeed very capable, but they won't last 10 years. They are falling apart from arrested landings, with their undercarriage repeatedly developing cracks.

It's a shitty situation, made worse by Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It's F18s that are the immediate future
Reportedly is the key word. Then we learnt they need more spares and availability is up again. So what is the truth??

We shall find out if navy sends them to mlu.
If what you guys are saying is true and airframe is indeed falling then it makes no sense to upgrade those mig29 during mlu.

But from what I know those mig29k will be upgraded and life extended in due courses.
 

IndianHawk

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It is indeed developing cracks. Been reported by a senior Navy officer "can't remember the name". The officer said "We paid for the development costs of MiG-29K and if the Russians have any shame they should repair the cracking airframes without asking for more money." Read it too long ago to remember more details.
So they are repairable . Hence they will be repaired and strengthened and will be used all their useful life.
 
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IndianHawk

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Then why are we buying MRCBF?

We already bought enough 29Ks for 2 carriers no?



We are not uber rich that's precisely why we can't afford to keep throwing money at a ship that will cost more to maintain vs the capability it delivers.

It's only been 30 years since Kuznetsov was inducted. Guess how many times it had to be refitted and how much grief its causing to Rus Navy?



Ground-based ops vs carrier ops totally different setting.

Fulcrum airframe never intended for carrier ops. It's being subjected to undue amounts of stress, compounded by the engines already-weak service lives being worked to death due to STOBAR ops (entire burden of takeoff is on engine).

It's the whole we started MRCBF - the 29Ks just aren't gonna cut it. It was a bad investment.
We have 45 mig29k . Navy says availability is 70% let's put it to 50% that means 23jets available at any time. Which is about what vikramaditya alone can carry.

So vikrant needs more jets. That's what we are buying now . 26 and more later with much better availablity rate compared to mig29k.

Later when tedbf enters service it will go on IAC -2 .and will retire mig29k from vikramaditya after 2040.

Rusi carrier comparison with vikramaditya is not really valid since russia didn't really renewed much on their carrier which still leave black smoke while sailing while vikramaditya as I posted got renewed 70%.
There are still few issues but after building vikrant we are very well capable of solving them .

It cost us 2.5 billion USD in 2013 money which is equal to 3-4 billion USD in today's money given the inflation.

So are we going to throw away a 4 millions dollar asset ?? Or are we going to make it work by putting few more millions in repairing whenever required. Not the mention the money invested in training crew and technicians to operate vikky.

29k wasn't a bad decision it was the only decision available. Russian or us didn't had any other carrier based jet. Su33 is even bigger disaster and USA was not so friendly back in 2004. By 2002 we were sanctioned .
 
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binayak95

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Reportedly is the key word. Then we learnt they need more spares and availability is up again. So what is the truth??

We shall find out if navy sends them to mlu.
If what you guys are saying is true and airframe is indeed falling then it makes no sense to upgrade those mig29 during mlu.

But from what I know those mig29k will be upgraded and life extended in due courses.
Yeah they will be, and then transferred to IAF.
 

binayak95

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It is indeed developing cracks. Been reported by a senior Navy officer "can't remember the name". The officer said "We paid for the development costs of MiG-29K and if the Russians have any shame they should repair the cracking airframes without asking for more money." Read it too long ago to remember more details.
Unfortunately, Russians have no shame.

They try to snoop and defile the names of officers who come for any course/training/familiarization as a rule. Then they'll try and keep that poor guy on tenterhooks the rest of his life.

some "ALLY"
 

binayak95

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Reportedly is the key word. Then we learnt they need more spares and availability is up again. So what is the truth??

We shall find out if navy sends them to mlu.
If what you guys are saying is true and airframe is indeed falling then it makes no sense to upgrade those mig29 during mlu.

But from what I know those mig29k will be upgraded and life extended in due courses.
reportedly nahi likha hai. REPEATEDLY likha hai.
Scotoma much bro?

And this ive heard from too many first hand and second hand accounts to take lightly.
 

IndianHawk

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I'd say its better to throw them away after TEDBF comes. TEDBF specs will blow MiG-29K out of the water.
I'd say its better to throw them away after TEDBF comes. TEDBF specs will blow MiG-29K out of the water.
This is precisely the point we don't throw away anything.

Besides tedbf has yet to complete critical design review and funds are yet to flow.

After which technology demonstration and prototype and 5-6 years of rigorous testing ( carrier based so more testing involved).

After which series production.

1st squadron might be ready by 2035. All 45 will be ready by 2040. About time to replace mig29k.

But it's not happening anytime soon only after 2040.
 

IndianHawk

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reportedly nahi likha hai. REPEATEDLY likha hai.
Scotoma much bro?

And this ive heard from too many first hand and second hand accounts to take lightly.
My mistake. Still question stands how is navy claiming 70 % availability is airframe is falling apart?? Sounds impossible.
 

IndianHawk

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Unfortunately, Russians have no shame.

They try to snoop and defile the names of officers who come for any course/training/familiarization as a rule. Then they'll try and keep that poor guy on tenterhooks the rest of his life.

some "ALLY"
Why blame ruskies when it was our own naval officers who cleared procurement of vikramaditya and couldn't even forcast how much work is truly required.

Rather than procuring vikramaditya if they had thrown similar money to build vikrant2 just after vikrant 1 . We will be in far better situation today.

And we would be saved from mig29k as well and could have directly importe f18 for both new carriers.
 

Marliii

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Why blame ruskies when it was our own naval officers who cleared procurement of vikramaditya and couldn't even forcast how much work is truly required.

Rather than procuring vikramaditya if they had thrown similar money to build vikrant2 just after vikrant 1 . We will be in far better situation today.

And we would be saved from mig29k as well and could have directly importe f18 for both new carriers.
When someone offers to sell something to you for free and only pay for the refurbishment anyone will be tempted to go for it.then backpeddling and saying if the buyer will not give the required money they will keep the carrier for themselves and even using cheap chinese stuff in the refurbishment is not IN fault it's Russians.
 

Adm Kenobi

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All I can say is that we don't have the kind of CAPEX to throw around on acquiring a new fighter every decade for the Navy
We bought a new fighter for IAF in 2000s (MKI)
LCA MK1 in mid 10s
Rafale in 2020
LCA MK2 is supposed to be inducted in late 20s
AMCA in 2030s.

Difference between IAF's and IN's modernisation budget has come down to just 6-7k cr from 20-25k just a few years ago, it will likely match it in the 30s and surpass in the 40s. IN can definitely afford TEDBF in the early-mid 30s (when it will be ready) & another in the mid-late 40s. New generation technologies are to be developed for AMCA MK1 & 2, advancement will be made in the same field as a decade passes.by, a NG naval combat aircraft can get it in the mid-late 40s. I have already stated why N AMCA won't have much of it's VLO capability when fulfilling the basic requirement of IN, a new aircraft after TEDBF is necessary & should be pursued. Both can work in tandem on our future carriers.

[/QUOTE]
especially when the existing fighters are still capable and have life left.
what fighters? MiG-29K/KUB? or the 26 MRCBF? One of them won't have any life left and the other won't be in sufficient numbers, Navy will also need shore based fighters and fighters for IAC-2 at that time, an equilibrium can be reached with MRCBF stationed at the naval air station and TEDBF on the deck of IAC-1 & 2 (or whatever comes next) which can then be accompanied by a new generation fighter in mid-late 40s.

The expenditure during that period (2030s-40s) will be perhaps even tighter than it is now due to several big-ticket programs coming online (SSNs, IAC-2) simultaneously.
It will be larger at the same time, the capacity will be of making >4 nuclear powered sub simultaneously (including S5), IN only has to pay for 6 SSN (~1.2L cr), that amount is likely to be paid in full by mid 30s (the shipyard has to be allocated the funds for last subs some years b4 they are delivered, same happened with P-75), Navy believes it can build the SSN & IAC-2 simultaneously and the fact that navy will have sufficient funds for IAC-2 has been reiterated by Admiral Sunil Lamba & KB Singh. Most of the expenditure happens when the ship is at the stage of 40-65% physical completion, that will be between early-mid 30s, Navy will have sufficient funds to fund a new project and purchase TEDBF for the rest of the decade and the 40s. The expenditure and the budget will both grow, nothing is stagnating here. The procurement funds for surface & sub surface combatants will increase at the same rate.
Once we buy MRCBF, it will remain on Vikrant till the end of their service lives (2055-2065).
Already said by the navy that this is not going to be the case, the aircraft operating from the flight deck of IAC-1 will be TEDBF, MRCBF jets can be deployed for other roles or sold off to some friendly country in the 40s, when TEDBF is a proven platform and a NG aircraft is certain.
and their replacement at that time cannot realistically be another 4.5 gen.
Hence the need to fund development of a new generation naval combat aircraft & get it by mid-late 40s. TEDBF can start phasing out in the mid 60s (when initial frames would be ~30 yrs old).
Last year one journalist reported that there would 8 N-LCAs too...what happened to that plan?
He likely took that from the same report, 12 MiG-29K + 8 N LCA/Sea harriers. It is to be seen if Navy is willing to buy N LCA for training role, leave aside combat. We'll have to wait & see what happens.
 

Adm Kenobi

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Mig29 has not even gone for mid life upgrade untill now. Which iirc is scheduled for 2026 which shall see life extension for another 15 years at the very least.

Besides cag reports are found to lacking when it comes to military technical matters .

And if navy is indeed looking at 3 carriers then fleet will have to cross 100+.




The official expected life span of the ship is 40 years, and is unlikely to require any major repair work for at least a decade.[61][71] Over 70% of the ship and her equipment is new and the remainder has been refurbished.[59] Sevmash Shipyard, which upgraded the carrier, will provide warranty servicing including maintenance for the next 20 years.[72]

70% of vikramaditya is brand new and certified life is 40 years. So it will serve till 2052.
CCS gets it's numbers from official documented reports, it doesn't make it out of thin air.

Yes, MiG-29K will be operating in the 40s and INS Vikramaditya will serve IN for 40 years, i.e. - 2053 👍
Vikramaditya did not require 3 major refit in the first 7 years (it will definitely not be going in for a 4th one in end of 2024).
"TEDBF is a replacement for MiG-29K" does not mean that TEDBF will be replacing MiG-29K (when it enters service), it just means that MiG-29K will be operated till early 2040s 👍
 

Okabe Rintarou

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We have 45 mig29k . Navy says availability is 70% let's put it to 50% that means 23jets available at any time. Which is about what vikramaditya alone can carry.

So vikrant needs more jets. That's what we are buying now . 26 and more later with much better availablity rate compared to mig29k.

Later when tedbf enters service it will go on IAC -2 .and will retire mig29k from vikramaditya after 2040.

Rusi carrier comparison with vikramaditya is not really valid since russia didn't really renewed much on their carrier which still leave black smoke while sailing while vikramaditya as I posted got renewed 70%.
There are still few issues but after building vikrant we are very well capable of solving them .

It cost us 2.5 billion USD in 2013 money which is equal to 3-4 billion USD in today's money given the inflation.

So are we going to throw away a 4 millions dollar asset ?? Or are we going to make it work by putting few more millions in repairing whenever required. Not the mention the money invested in training crew and technicians to operate vikky.

29k wasn't a bad decision it was the only decision available. Russian or us didn't had any other carrier based jet. Su33 is even bigger disaster and USA was not so friendly back in 2004. By 2002 we were sanctioned .
We can produce TEDBF faster in 2030s because size of Indian aerospace ecosystem is growing. We won't have to wait for 2040 for just 45 TEDBF. Navy is in a hurry with TEDBF, they want it ready ASAP.
And it makes sense to field TEDBF from Vikramaditya instead of MiG-29K because TEDBF is a much more capable plane. The difference is actually staggering. The aim shouldn't be to squeeze the life out of MiG-29K. OTOH, we should aim to squeeze the life out of Vikramaditya. TEDBF can and should replace MiG-29K by 2033-34. And thereafter TEDBF production should continue for air wing of IAC-2 and other future carriers. If MiG-29K are still have operational life beyond that, they should be fielded from Great Nicobar or some other island.
 

IndianHawk

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When someone offers to sell something to you for free and only pay for the refurbishment anyone will be tempted to go for it.then backpeddling and saying if the buyer will not give the required money they will keep the carrier for themselves and even using cheap chinese stuff in the refurbishment is not IN fault it's Russians.
It's like children being given lolipop.lol.

But Indian Navy are professionals no?? Iirc a naval officer was caught in Russia with prostituted too .

If you have your own business who will you hold responsible if you sign such a deal and later pay multiple times more. Surely the other party conned you but you were also not very smart to begun with.

We should hold our navy to higher standards. They were too desperate for a carrier and made a mess.

Similarly they couldn't foresee issue that will arise while converting land based mig29 for carrier operation?? Or again they trusted ruskies blindly??

They should've learnt from British who remained without carrier for many years and build 2 of their own when they had money.

Vikrant was already in plans. They shouldn't have fallen for vikramaditya and mig29k rather they should've ordered 2 of vikrant class one by one. That would save cost and we will have much better and totally new carriers even if a bit late. By now we will have vikrant 2 in construction.
Then we could've have ordered 70f18 for both of them and we'd have much better carrier fleet both in owning an operating.
 

binayak95

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It's like children being given lolipop.lol.

But Indian Navy are professionals no?? Iirc a naval officer was caught in Russia with prostituted too .

If you have your own business who will you hold responsible if you sign such a deal and later pay multiple times more. Surely the other party conned you but you were also not very smart to begun with.

We should hold our navy to higher standards. They were too desperate for a carrier and made a mess.

Similarly they couldn't foresee issue that will arise while converting land based mig29 for carrier operation?? Or again they trusted ruskies blindly??

They should've learnt from British who remained without carrier for many years and build 2 of their own when they had money.

Vikrant was already in plans. They shouldn't have fallen for vikramaditya and mig29k rather they should've ordered 2 of vikrant class one by one. That would save cost and we will have much better and totally new carriers even if a bit late. By now we will have vikrant 2 in construction.
Then we could've have ordered 70f18 for both of them and we'd have much better carrier fleet both in owning an operating.
*learn from the British* Good lord. Old Nelson himself spits on the Royal Navy of today.
 

IndianHawk

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We can produce TEDBF faster in 2030s because size of Indian aerospace ecosystem is growing. We won't have to wait for 2040 for just 45 TEDBF. Navy is in a hurry with TEDBF, they want it ready ASAP.
And it makes sense to field TEDBF from Vikramaditya instead of MiG-29K because TEDBF is a much more capable plane. The difference is actually staggering. The aim shouldn't be to squeeze the life out of MiG-29K. OTOH, we should aim to squeeze the life out of Vikramaditya. TEDBF can and should replace MiG-29K by 2033-34. And thereafter TEDBF production should continue for air wing of IAC-2 and other future carriers. If MiG-29K are still have operational life beyond that, they should be fielded from Great Nicobar or some other island.
Navy can be in hurry as much as it wants. But tedbf is a brand new design and brand new jet. If mwf will require 4-5 years of testing when it's basically a design evolution them tedbf will require 6-8 years of rigorous testing ( added 1-2 extra year because of carrier based testing).
Then you need 2-3 years to master the production line. And that If everything goes right .

That's why navy is buying 26 jets and not leasing them for 10-12 years. Because it's hedging the delays tedbf can face and hence it's keeping options open to buy more jets further.
 

IndianHawk

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CCS gets it's numbers from official documented reports, it doesn't make it out of thin air.

Yes, MiG-29K will be operating in the 40s and INS Vikramaditya will serve IN for 40 years, i.e. - 2053 👍
Vikramaditya did not require 3 major refit in the first 7 years (it will definitely not be going in for a 4th one in end of 2024).
"TEDBF is a replacement for MiG-29K" does not mean that TEDBF will be replacing MiG-29K (when it enters service), it just means that MiG-29K will be operated till early 2040s 👍
Is this sarcasm. When will tedbf enter service. What date has CCS given ?? Enlighten us please.

And if vikramaditya won't serve for 40 years if navy willing to court marshal the idiots who certified it for that much life??
 

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