INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[Chinmoy]

Indian Navy should have ordered atleast 100 Mig 29K to begin with for both its aircraft carriers when they acquired the INS Vikramaditya, rather than just 45.
Or atleast they could have demanded shifting the production line to India so we could make as many as we fancy.

IN ordered enough Mig-29's to operate from both carriers.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

IN ordered enough Mig-29's to operate from both carriers.

45 were ordered 4 crashed.
Out of 41 not all are operational due to low spare parts availablity.
This isn't even enough for 1 carrier, if a carrier can carry 30 aircraft we need 40 as some aircraft will be under maintenance

 

[Chinmoy]

45 were ordered 4 crashed.
Out of 41 not all are operational due to low spare parts availablity.
This isn't even enough for 1 carrier, if a carrier can carry 30 aircraft we need 40 as some aircraft will be under maintenance

Do some study. Don't go by what is written in Wiki. 30 aircraft is sanctioned strength of Vikrant, which includes both fixed and rotary wings.

The current G2G deal India is looking forward for IAC is for 26 Aircraft out of which 8 would be twin seater training variant. Now you are not going to deploy all 26 aircraft onboard. Right?

So it would be a mix of single seater + twin seater. This makes it a sanctioned strength of around 16 to 18 jets at one time. Even if we take it as 18 jets per AC, we have enough 29's to be deployed on both carriers as of now.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

IN ordered enough Mig-29's to operate from both carriers.

Definitely not, both INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant can carry 26 Mig-29K each, which means 52 Mig 29K should have been ordered atleast(I am not even talking about raising a couple of shore based squadrons).

 

[Chinmoy]

Definitely not, both INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant can carry 26 Mig-29K each, which means 52 Mig 29K should have been ordered atleast(I am not even talking about raising a couple of shore based squadrons).

Sanctioned strength of IAC-1 is 30 aircraft including all. If you put 26 Migs on it, how many Helis for SAR and AWACS role would you put on it?

When Vikramaditya was inducted, IN ordered 16 Mig-29s with 4 being twin seater trainer. Additional 29 were ordered post that in 2010 keeping in mind IAC-1.

So could you provide me a valid source from where you have got this 26 Mig-29s per carrier?

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

Sanctioned strength of IAC-1 is 30 aircraft including all. If you put 26 Migs on it, how many Helis for SAR and AWACS role would you put on it?

When Vikramaditya was inducted, IN ordered 16 Mig-29s with 4 being twin seater trainer. Additional 29 were ordered post that in 2010 keeping in mind IAC-1.

So could you provide me a valid source from where you have got this 26 Mig-29s per carrier?

 

[Chinmoy]

View attachment 184490

View attachment 184491

Again Wikipedia. Ok, lets see what you posted.

On top its mentioned as, Aircraft carried 26 Mig-29K.

And what have you highlighted?

Carriage ranges given for the ship seem to converge around 16–24 MiG-29K and 10 Kamov Ka-31 or Dhruv helicopters

It means there is no scope of 26 Migs as maximum it could accommodate as per the same Wiki is 24 aircraft. Now you don't go on with maximum aircraft anyway as it would mean carrying extra aviation fuel and spare. So the practical number you would see aboard Vikramaditya is somewhere in between 16-24 which is 18 to 20 i.e., 1 sqd. @binayak95 would be able to confirm on number of Migs per sqd in IN.

Now here I would again say, don't go by Wiki on numbers. Here is what IN has to say on it.

The ship has the ability to carry over 30 aircraft comprising an assortment of MiG 29K/Sea Harrier, Kamov 31, Kamov 28, Sea King, ALH-Dhruv and Chetak helicopters.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/ins-vikramaditya

 

[abingdonboy]

have been saying for quite longer. Pay 500m to get IP rights for the Mig29k aircraft design and if possible with Flight control law code and design the rest of the avionics ourselves. Like J11. I mean heck, fit Mig29k airframe with F414, Israeli radar, Indian cockpit and weapons. Would be a beast. It would save time as the aircraft design itself is already validated.

This likely won’t actually address the issue. From what is known the issues with the 29Ks are baked into the fundamental design of the machine. Aside from the known crashes a lot of 29Ks have been written off with broken spines. The TEDBF by the IN’s own admission is a replacement for the 29K not a supplement

the IN bought a half baked product unseen and untested and are now saddled with it until a clean sheet design comes around. This saga is of epic incompetence and will cost the taxpayer billions and lose the navy decades

 

[abingdonboy]

IN ordered enough Mig-29's to operate from both carriers.

Nope. 3 SQDs are not enough for 2 carriers if you expect to deploy 2 simultaneously ideally you’d have 2 deploy per carrier and then have 1 on shore doing a work up for the next deployment

Even if you only deploy 1 at a time this is a huge burden on the squadrons and will only exacerbate life issues and our strain on the squadrons.

 

[abingdonboy]

Sanctioned strength of IAC-1 is 30 aircraft including all. If you put 26 Migs on it, how many Helis for SAR and AWACS role would you put on it?

When Vikramaditya was inducted, IN ordered 16 Mig-29s with 4 being twin seater trainer. Additional 29 were ordered post that in 2010 keeping in mind IAC-1.

So could you provide me a valid source from where you have got this 26 Mig-29s per carrier?

That’s not how it works. You don’t just throw as many birds as you have on deployment.

there will always be training requirements. You’ll always have planes u/s, you’ll want war/crash reserves.

and if you have 2 squadrons worth of MiG-29Ks worth of fighters on paper that doesn’t mean 2 squadrons worth of fighters are available.

Before a carrier deployment there is a training regime, after a deployment there has to be a in-depth maintenance work up on the birds. So if you have 2 carriers at sea how can you deploy 2 fighter squadrons routinely? You can’t.

2-3squadrons are the minimum to support 1 carrier, with 2 you are playing a dangerous game and things will break

 

[Aditya Ballal]

This likely won’t actually address the issue. From what is known the issues with the 29Ks are baked into the fundamental design of the machine. Aside from the known crashes a lot of 29Ks have been written off with broken spines. The TEDBF by the IN’s own admission is a replacement for the 29K not a supplement

the IN bought a half baked product unseen and untested and are now saddled with it until a clean sheet design comes around. This saga is of epic incompetence and will cost the taxpayer billions and lose the navy decades

Whilst I agree with you that the Mig 29K does have certain significant inherent issues, do share the source of IN airframes being Written-Off for broken spines?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

This likely won’t actually address the issue. From what is known the issues with the 29Ks are baked into the fundamental design of the machine. Aside from the known crashes a lot of 29Ks have been written off with broken spines. The TEDBF by the IN’s own admission is a replacement for the 29K not a supplement

the IN bought a half baked product unseen and untested and are now saddled with it until a clean sheet design comes around. This saga is of epic incompetence and will cost the taxpayer billions and lose the navy decades

With production line setup in India, you always have the option to replace the aircrafts that have been written off or that have crashed.

 

[johnj]

This likely won’t actually address the issue. From what is known the issues with the 29Ks are baked into the fundamental design of the machine. Aside from the known crashes a lot of 29Ks have been written off with broken spines. The TEDBF by the IN’s own admission is a replacement for the 29K not a supplement

the IN bought a half baked product unseen and untested and are now saddled with it until a clean sheet design comes around. This saga is of epic incompetence and will cost the taxpayer billions and lose the navy decades

That's IN. Also not half baked, but experimental & P8I purchase is half baked. For IN, aircraft carrier is must, and only option available was Russian, with out mig & vikki, IN will loose aircraft carrier capability, and zero carrier for at least 3 decade. Now IA having 2 ACs, gained exp in building ACs & able to maintain AC operations, unlike UK. Now considering building IAC 2, and a carrier jet, now you tell me how its epic incompetence ?, and about cost, better consider UK CV & its air fleet, or Chinese carriers, need billions to build such capability.

 

[SKC]

This likely won’t actually address the issue. From what is known the issues with the 29Ks are baked into the fundamental design of the machine. Aside from the known crashes a lot of 29Ks have been written off with broken spines. The TEDBF by the IN’s own admission is a replacement for the 29K not a supplement

the IN bought a half baked product unseen and untested and are now saddled with it until a clean sheet design comes around. This saga is of epic incompetence and will cost the taxpayer billions and lose the navy decades

Carrier Born aircrafts have higher crash rates and lower availability due to higher maintenance required then their airforce counterparts.

Do you have any study which can show Mig-29K has any significant deviation in crash rates from other Carrier aircraft available.

During the time we bought Vikky, do you think we could have got any other aircraft. I don't think so!

It was the best option that time and has done good job for us so far.

I wish we worked like chinese and made our own version based on Migs and Sukhoi like them. Chinese have made better version of these than Russians for themselves.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

That's IN. Also not half baked, but experimental & P8I purchase is half baked. For IN, aircraft carrier is must, and only option available was Russian, with out mig & vikki, IN will loose aircraft carrier capability, and zero carrier for at least 3 decade. Now IA having 2 ACs, gained exp in building ACs & able to maintain AC operations, unlike UK. Now considering building IAC 2, and a carrier jet, now you tell me how its epic incompetence ?, and about cost, better consider UK CV & its air fleet, or Chinese carriers, need billions to build such capability.

Again you’re bringing your claims regarding the P8i with no authoritative proof.

 

[johnj]

With production line setup in India, you always have the option to replace the aircrafts that have been written off or that have crashed.

Q. why mig29k production line, why not mig 35k mki ? Major issue wrt Russian jets were its engine.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Q. why mig29k production line, why not mig 35k mki ? Major issue wrt Russian jets were its engine.

As of now Mig-35 is only a concept, Mig-35 itself isn't any different compared to the Mig-29K

 

[johnj]

Again you’re bringing your claims regarding the P8i with no authoritative proof.

GoI brought P8i, with out any test, matter of fact, its still under development stage, even USN give ioc after GoI choose P8.
from, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon-
''The P-8's first flight was on 25 April 2009'' & ''In January 2008, Boeing proposed the P-8I, a customized export variant of the P-8A, for the Indian Navy.[69] It features two major components not fitted on the P-8A, a Telephonics APS-143 OceanEye aft radar and a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD). On 4 January 2009, India's Ministry of Defence signed a US$2.1 billion agreement with Boeing.'' & ''On 4 March 2012, the first production P-8A was delivered to the USN''
Its very hard to find a decade old articles & GoI brought p8 as a goodwill for removing sanctions.
My mistake, P8i also an experimental purchase like vikky. Only difference is, one with issues & other don't.

 

[Blademaster]

F-35B is an inferior version with vertical landing. Vertical landing means landing with limited payload. Landing with limited payload usually means taking off with limited payload.
We have STOBAR Carriers for superior jets.

Those jets are in the same situation as the F-35Bs. IIRC, the F-35B carry more payload taking off vertically.

 

[SKC]

As of now Mig-35 is only a concept, Mig-35 itself isn't any different compared to the Mig-29K

Mig-35 is not concept. But Mig-35K is definitely a concept as of now. I don't think they have any prototype as Mig-35K.