INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Kshithij]

I don't think navy can afford 3 carrier air wings.If 3rd wing is to be rafale/5th gen navy cant afford it.

Why do you only speak negatively without giving any numbers or statistics and always speak about some random future probability? Who are you to decide if India can afford anything or not? Also, how is it expensive to buy Indian AMCA when the cost is going into India itself as employment creation?

We need to drop plans for the 3rd nuclear carrier and focus on 2 good ones.
We don't have funds for it.If the airforce can barely scrape enough to buy 36 rafales there's no way navy can afford a large number of ships,subs,a whole carrier plus a mini air force of 50 plus rafales/5th gen for itself in the 3rd carrier.Its impractical.
Focus on submarines,they are the future -the age of carriers is uncertain.I hope atleast now 48 barak 8 have been retrofitted onto vikramaditya as was promised.

Who told you that submarines can replace carriers? Carriers are meant for attack, submarines are meant for defence. Submarines can't bombard an enemy like the carriers can. Submarines can only deny sea access and that too upto limited extent. AEWACS on helicopters and other ASW methods.

Who determines what is impractical? Isn't USA having 10 carriers?Isn't China making more carriers? Nuclear carriers don't even need diesel fuel to run.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Why do you only speak negatively without giving any numbers or statistics and always speak about some random future probability? Who are you to decide if India can afford anything or not? Also, how is it expensive to buy Indian AMCA when the cost is going into India itself as employment creation?



Who told you that submarines can replace carriers? Carriers are meant for attack, submarines are meant for defence. Submarines can't bombard an enemy like the carriers can. Submarines can only deny sea access and that too upto limited extent. AEWACS on helicopters and other ASW methods.

Who determines what is impractical? Isn't USA having 10 carriers?Isn't China making more carriers? Nuclear carriers don't even need diesel fuel to run.

I am not speaking negatively, i am speaking realistically.You people live in the clouds.
Be logical,total budget is spent between army,airforce and navy.Now army gets maybe half or more-the bulk of budget.Rest of budget is is divided between airforce and navy.Now we find defence minister saying airforce can't afford more than 36 rafales.How will then navy afford 200 shipbuilding program if it also has to buy 2 more carriers.Even more costly than the carriers will be their carrier wings.Maybe mig29k or naval tejas are cheap aircraft that can be afforded but they wouldn't stand a chance against any future naval j-31 5th gen fielded by china so getting 3 carrier wings of them is not of much use.Its absurd to think if a whole independent service like IAF can't afford more than 36 rafales,navy with all its other commitments and lesser or equal total budget can afford 57 rafales or 5th gen aircraft?Do you get that logic,or just blind faith?

Submarines can't replace carriers but they are more dangerous than them.They don't require huge battle groups to protect them,cant be easly detected ,are immune to anti ship missiles and much much cheaper.A full CBG with with air wing costs 10-15 billion dollars and massive maintainence costs.Even more if its a supercarrier.A latest USN virginia class submarine with 40 tomahawks plus 25 mines,torpedoes and anti ship missiles costs between 1-2 billion.In exercise after exercise involving USN submarines have sneaked up on carriers and sunk them with impunity.Go search on net how gotland class swedish sub sunk whole US CBG on exercise,how old canadian sub sunk british CV,how chinese sub suddenly surfaced within torpedo range of kitty hawk,there is a photo of us supercarrier in periscope vision of soviet submarine that had been tracking it within torpedo range.Carriers are extremely costly and risky.Subs are more cost efficient.We should not have 3 carrier battlegroups at the expense of subs or other ships,only after we have all other commitments fulfilled should we go for it,and only if we can afford it or until our economy grows to that level.

 

[Kshithij]

I am not speaking negatively, i am speaking realistically.You people live in the clouds.
Be logical,total budget is spent between army,airforce and navy.Now army gets maybe half or more-the bulk of budget.Rest of budget is is divided between airforce and navy.Now we find defence minister saying airforce can't afford more than 36 rafales.How will then navy afford 200 shipbuilding program if it also has to buy 2 more carriers.Even more costly than the carriers will be their carrier wings.Maybe mig29k or naval tejas are cheap aircraft that can be afforded but they wouldn't stand a chance against any future naval j-31 5th gen fielded by china so getting 3 carrier wings of them is not of much use.Its absurd to think if a whole independent service like IAF can't afford more than 36 rafales,navy with all its other commitments and lesser or equal total budget can afford 57 rafales or 5th gen aircraft?Do you get that logic,or just blind faith?

Submarines can't replace carriers but they are more dangerous than them.They don't require huge battle groups to protect them,cant be easly detected ,are immune to anti ship missiles and much much cheaper.A full CBG with with air wing costs 10-15 billion dollars and massive maintainence costs.Even more if its a supercarrier.A latest USN virginia class submarine with 40 tomahawks plus 25 mines,torpedoes and anti ship missiles costs between 1-2 billion.In exercise after exercise involving USN submarines have sneaked up on carriers and sunk them with impunity.Go search on net how gotland class swedish sub sunk whole US CBG on exercise,how old canadian sub sunk british CV,how chinese sub suddenly surfaced within torpedo range of kitty hawk,there is a photo of us supercarrier in periscope vision of soviet submarine that had been tracking it within torpedo range.Carriers are extremely costly and risky.Subs are more cost efficient.We should not have 3 carrier battlegroups at the expense of subs or other ships,only after we have all other commitments fulfilled should we go for it,and only if we can afford it or until our economy grows to that level.

Do you understand that the carrier is a future plan rather than present? Why do you think that the future will have low defence budgets? The defence budgets may increase as Indian defence technology and manufacturing matures. Also, developing a MIC as the mainstay of the Indian economy is also a good idea. After the roads, toilets and houses are completed, what work will the govt have left to do? In that time, the budget for road construction, toilets etc will go towards defence manufacturing once the infrastructure is developed to the mark. Govt has kept the target of 2022 for the infrastructure completion/ Even with 2 years delay, by 2025, the defence budget can be expected to be increased drastically.

Again, submarine has its own strength and weakness. Indian carriers are not built at the expense of submarines. There is a plan for 6 SSBN and 6SSN already. The scorpene submarine is also expected to be 9 till 2022 and then later on it will be Indian design for some more submarine

 

[binayak95]

I am not speaking negatively, i am speaking realistically.You people live in the clouds.
Be logical,total budget is spent between army,airforce and navy.Now army gets maybe half or more-the bulk of budget.Rest of budget is is divided between airforce and navy.Now we find defence minister saying airforce can't afford more than 36 rafales.How will then navy afford 200 shipbuilding program if it also has to buy 2 more carriers.Even more costly than the carriers will be their carrier wings.Maybe mig29k or naval tejas are cheap aircraft that can be afforded but they wouldn't stand a chance against any future naval j-31 5th gen fielded by china so getting 3 carrier wings of them is not of much use.Its absurd to think if a whole independent service like IAF can't afford more than 36 rafales,navy with all its other commitments and lesser or equal total budget can afford 57 rafales or 5th gen aircraft?Do you get that logic,or just blind faith?

Submarines can't replace carriers but they are more dangerous than them.They don't require huge battle groups to protect them,cant be easly detected ,are immune to anti ship missiles and much much cheaper.A full CBG with with air wing costs 10-15 billion dollars and massive maintainence costs.Even more if its a supercarrier.A latest USN virginia class submarine with 40 tomahawks plus 25 mines,torpedoes and anti ship missiles costs between 1-2 billion.In exercise after exercise involving USN submarines have sneaked up on carriers and sunk them with impunity.Go search on net how gotland class swedish sub sunk whole US CBG on exercise,how old canadian sub sunk british CV,how chinese sub suddenly surfaced within torpedo range of kitty hawk,there is a photo of us supercarrier in periscope vision of soviet submarine that had been tracking it within torpedo range.Carriers are extremely costly and risky.Subs are more cost efficient.We should not have 3 carrier battlegroups at the expense of subs or other ships,only after we have all other commitments fulfilled should we go for it,and only if we can afford it or until our economy grows to that level.

Now I am convinced.
a. You know NOTHING but propaganda BS.
b. You are a frigging Paki.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Now I am convinced.
a. You know NOTHING but propaganda BS.
b. You are a frigging Paki.

I've been around on defence forums for 14 years now,lol.Now you make me a pakistani for pointing out real flaws.Your attitude is' everything is perfect and great,and if you dare to say otherwise you are a paki'.Grow up .

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Do you understand that the carrier is a future plan rather than present? Why do you think that the future will have low defence budgets? The defence budgets may increase as Indian defence technology and manufacturing matures. Also, developing a MIC as the mainstay of the Indian economy is also a good idea. After the roads, toilets and houses are completed, what work will the govt have left to do? In that time, the budget for road construction, toilets etc will go towards defence manufacturing once the infrastructure is developed to the mark. Govt has kept the target of 2022 for the infrastructure completion/ Even with 2 years delay, by 2025, the defence budget can be expected to be increased drastically.

Again, submarine has its own strength and weakness. Indian carriers are not built at the expense of submarines. There is a plan for 6 SSBN and 6SSN already. The scorpene submarine is also expected to be 9 till 2022 and then later on it will be Indian design for some more submarine

If there is a third carrier it will be only after 2030.Hopefully by then our economy can make it affordable.But if given a choice between a third carrier and 6 more SSNs,i will always choose SSNs.People talking about a 3rd carrier now is just daydream,its neither affordable nor needed before we finish our other shipbuilding programmes.Andaman is our unsinkable carrier and the most important asset of the IN.

 

[binayak95]

I've been around on defence forums for 14 years now,lol.Now you make me a pakistani for pointing out real flaws.Your attitude is' everything is perfect and great,and if you dare to say otherwise you are a paki'.Grow up .

Any guy who believes the "J31" is a serious threat clearly has sanity issues. If you are an Indian, tell me, what's your native place?

IAF can't afford more than 36 Rafales. RIIIGHT. Ever heard of distributed acquisition? Do you even know how Indian acquisition system works?

Coming to the whole subs vs ACs. Only an amateur can even think of making this argument. Its not a fucking either or, its BOTH. Subs are masters at sea denial but can't do jackshit about sea control. Carriers and their battle groups can do both. But of course, your masters send N subs for anti piracy ops. So yeah, in jihadiland its quite possible.

 

[Samsung J7]

I've been around on defence forums for 14 years now,lol.Now you make me a pakistani for pointing out real flaws.Your attitude is' everything is perfect and great,and if you dare to say otherwise you are a paki'.Grow up .

Leave these guys , they r in their own shown far from reality. Hope you contribute more to this forum .I like your balanced assessments. This forum needs some balance. Now its filled with particular party supportoers who live in delusions

 

[Samsung J7]

IAF can't afford more than 36 Rafales. RIIIGHT. Ever heard of distributed acquisition? Do you even know how Indian acquisition system works?

Why do you think they ordered only 36 rafales after more than decade of searching? Money . Stop dreaming for 300 rafales .

 

[Kshithij]

Economy is built around defence, not other way around. If India can make 50lakh automobiles a year, these 3carrier is nothiing. Cost will reduce as industry consolidates

If there is a third carrier it will be only after 2030.Hopefully by then our economy can make it affordable.But if given a choice between a third carrier and 6 more SSNs,i will always choose SSNs.People talking about a 3rd carrier now is just daydream,its neither affordable nor needed before we finish our other shipbuilding programmes.Andaman is our unsinkable carrier and the most important asset of the IN.

 

[binayak95]

Why do you think they ordered only 36 rafales after more than decade of searching? Money . Stop dreaming for 300 rafales .

Yeah don't let the surprise hit you hard when we end up with 72 at the minimum and 120 at the other end.

Why dont you and your buddy and Selvam (I sense a pattern) go and form a circle wank

 

[Kshithij]

Why do you think they ordered only 36 rafales after more than decade of searching? Money . Stop dreaming for 300 rafales .

India is not moron to buy300 rafalesinstead of developing own planes

 

[Samsung J7]

Yeah don't let the surprise hit you hard when we end up with 72 at the minimum and 120 at the other end.

Why dont you and your buddy and Selvam (I sense a pattern) go and form a circle wank

72 is still far from original planned 126. We cant afford western standard airforce for time being in great numbers.

 

[lcafanboy]

Why do you think they ordered only 36 rafales after more than decade of searching? Money . Stop dreaming for 300 rafales .

Rafales will keep coming in tranches right up to 2030 and we will approx 300 Rafales flying in India. Just wait and see.... Money is no problem. Let DRAL start its operations. We need to replace 6 sqdns of mig 21s, 3sqdns of jaguars, plus we are short of 10 sqdns for iaf sanctioned 42 sqdns plus there's a talk of increasing it to 45. Now add 57 for Navy and more...all required by 2025-30.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Any guy who believes the "J31" is a serious threat clearly has sanity issues. If you are an Indian, tell me, what's your native place?

IAF can't afford more than 36 Rafales. RIIIGHT. Ever heard of distributed acquisition? Do you even know how Indian acquisition system works?

Coming to the whole subs vs ACs. Only an amateur can even think of making this argument. Its not a fucking either or, its BOTH. Subs are masters at sea denial but can't do jackshit about sea control. Carriers and their battle groups can do both. But of course, your masters send N subs for anti piracy ops. So yeah, in jihadiland its quite possible.

J31 is in development,if j20 is operational albeit tentatively do you really think j31and a naval derivative won't be operational within 10 years?Why do you think china is building 3-6 carriers?Just to put j16s on them?My native place is Kolkata.

The defence minister himself said order was cut short due to lack of money,it may be difficult to acknowledge for some fanboys,but our MOD and defence forces are not really good at efficient management of finances.36 rafales and weaponry with maintainence cost us over 9 billion dollars.
You might want BOTH,but we don't have money for BOTH atm.And given the choice between one carrier with how i don't know they are going to afford 57 rafales or 6 top class SSN,i choose latter.2 carriers may not be perfect,but they are still highly capable for powerprojection in our backyard.

 

[darshan978]

72 is still far from original planned 126. We cant afford western standard air force for time being in great numbers.

if there are party supporters here then ,who you are khangressi pidi!!
first see yourself before pointing fingers towards others....
we have full right to support corruption less party rather than party run by family and just to know giving lecture on democracy and secularism in''hidden mullah supporters avatar'' ...

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Economy is built around defence, not other way around. If India can make 50lakh automobiles a year, these 3carrier is nothiing. Cost will reduce as industry consolidates

Of course ,we wish that happens.But that is still in the future,if we can afford it,we will use it.But submarine force should be priority over extra carrier.We need SSBNs that can hit beijing in a second strike and we need SSNs that can lead/cover our 2 existing(vikrant after entreing service) CBGs as well as our SSBNs.SSNs will also allow us to attack chinese shipping in far away sectors like sunda straits(if they try to avoid malacca chokepoint) without need to surface.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Why is this forum so politicized?Politics should be kept out of armed forces which is national security issue.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Rafales will keep coming in tranches right up to 2030 and we will approx 300 Rafales flying in India. Just wait and see.... Money is no problem. Let DRAL start its operations. We need to replace 6 sqdns of mig 21s, 3sqdns of jaguars, plus we are short of 10 sqdns for iaf sanctioned 42 sqdns plus there's a talk of increasing it to 45. Now add 57 for Navy and more...all required by 2025-30.

This is a daydream.And also a foolish one.300 rafales will break our bank.
Secondly,rafales will not be able to counter j20s.We need pakfa or f-35s for that.Or if by some miracle DRDO actually delivers a functional AMCA before 2040.

 

[Samsung J7]

Rafales will keep coming in tranches right up to 2030 and we will approx 300 Rafales flying in India. Just wait and see.... Money is no problem. Let DRAL start its operations. We need to replace 6 sqdns of mig 21s, 3sqdns of jaguars, plus we are short of 10 sqdns for iaf sanctioned 42 sqdns plus there's a talk of increasing it to 45. Now add 57 for Navy and more...all required by 2025-30.

If we induct 300 rafales , then forget about fgfa for next 3 decades