India's own AESA Radars....dream to reality

[BON PLAN]

Put the dimensions of radome of both here.

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The nose cone of Tejas is smaller than M2000 one.
And RBE2 was tested on a M2000.

 

[IndianHawk]

The nose cone of Tejas is smaller than M2000 one.
And RBE2 was tested on a M2000.

Dimensions please.

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[power_monger]

Afaik,

1) It was assumed that 2052 AESA radar would be flying in LCA mk1A and uttam radar only in LCA mk2 which is MWF now. But delay in mk1a has now given that extra time for uttam to compete with 2052.Indian air force is now open to check both radars and will opt uttam if uttam is within 10% performance shortage also.
2) Uttam radar was always designed keeping LCA in mind. Be it the TRM , power or cooling everything was planned optimally for LCA. DRDO believes this is going to huge advantage compared to 2052.
3) Uttam testing is really going well with one of the reports saying that it's A2A mode performance is now within 10% of the expected performance.
4) With these results DRDO is expecting it can put beat 2052 which has to be downsized and adapted to match the parameters of LCA.
5) I got news that uttam could be ready by next year september in current pace with no major pickups. Even satish reddy has confirmed the same except for month.
6) Meteor was never planned in Astra nor sukhoi. LCA major weapons would astra and sfdr. However Upgrading of uttam aesa radar on to sukhoi is planned once it is proven on LCA.
7) meteor will only be planned on rafale only and there are no plans of iaf to integrate it with either sukhoi nor lca. Iaf is looking at sfdr as a long term solution.

 

[apoorv465]

Interesting thread found on reddit that Su 30mki radar is hybrid AESA-PESA radar.

was reading a bit about radar systems, and this is what I saw about the Bars radar on the MKIs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

N011M is used on Su-30MKI, and the contract for the N011M radar has three stages. The initial MK1 software was tested in 2002 and supplied with the first Su-30MKI deliveries. India was supposed to build both programmable signal processors and data processors under project "Vetrivale" to replace the original Russian components, but failed to do so within the required time frame, so MK2 still used the Russian equipment. In 2004, India delivered Vetrivale radar computer based in the i960 architecture. It's worth noting that N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km.

This was upgraded to Irbis-E which I think Russia offered to China.

Interesting bit about thehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

It can detect a target with radar cross-section(RCS) 3m2 at up to 400 km, (towards each other, in an area of 100 square degrees)[3][4] while a target with RCS 0.01m2 at up to 90 km

This would mean an F-22 will remain virtually invisible to these radars.


Sometime back Vishnu Som mentioned it that India was looking at Irbis-E for MKI upgrade.

1. The radar India will be looking to upgrade the jet with would be the Irbis-E ... which can can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 350~400 kilometers, and attack up to 8.

 

[Janardan Shukla]

Interesting thread found on reddit that Su 30mki radar is hybrid AESA-PESA radar.

was reading a bit about radar systems, and this is what I saw about the Bars radar on the MKIs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

N011M is used on Su-30MKI, and the contract for the N011M radar has three stages. The initial MK1 software was tested in 2002 and supplied with the first Su-30MKI deliveries. India was supposed to build both programmable signal processors and data processors under project "Vetrivale" to replace the original Russian components, but failed to do so within the required time frame, so MK2 still used the Russian equipment. In 2004, India delivered Vetrivale radar computer based in the i960 architecture. It's worth noting that N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km.

This was upgraded to Irbis-E which I think Russia offered to China.

Interesting bit about thehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

It can detect a target with radar cross-section(RCS) 3m2 at up to 400 km, (towards each other, in an area of 100 square degrees)[3][4] while a target with RCS 0.01m2 at up to 90 km

This would mean an F-22 will remain virtually invisible to these radars.


Sometime back Vishnu Som mentioned it that India was looking at Irbis-E for MKI upgrade.

1. The radar India will be looking to upgrade the jet with would be the Irbis-E ... which can can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 350~400 kilometers, and attack up to 8.

I think we should go for Byelka system for su 30 mki

 

[IndianHawk]

Interesting thread found on reddit that Su 30mki radar is hybrid AESA-PESA radar.

was reading a bit about radar systems, and this is what I saw about the Bars radar on the MKIs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

N011M is used on Su-30MKI, and the contract for the N011M radar has three stages. The initial MK1 software was tested in 2002 and supplied with the first Su-30MKI deliveries. India was supposed to build both programmable signal processors and data processors under project "Vetrivale" to replace the original Russian components, but failed to do so within the required time frame, so MK2 still used the Russian equipment. In 2004, India delivered Vetrivale radar computer based in the i960 architecture. It's worth noting that N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays. However, for transmitting, N011M uses PESA technology in that a single Chelnok traveling-wave tube is used for EGSP-6A transmitter. There are three receiving channels for N011M.

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km.

This was upgraded to Irbis-E which I think Russia offered to China.

Interesting bit about thehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

It can detect a target with radar cross-section(RCS) 3m2 at up to 400 km, (towards each other, in an area of 100 square degrees)[3][4] while a target with RCS 0.01m2 at up to 90 km

This would mean an F-22 will remain virtually invisible to these radars.


Sometime back Vishnu Som mentioned it that India was looking at Irbis-E for MKI upgrade.

1. The radar India will be looking to upgrade the jet with would be the Irbis-E ... which can can detect and track up to 30 airborne targets at one time at ranges near 350~400 kilometers, and attack up to 8.

Yup it's half aesa half pesa. That means it may still be more capable and powerful than full aesa radar of smaller planes like f16 of USA.

Su30mki is a beast.

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[Steven Rogers]

The nose cone of Tejas is smaller than M2000 one.
And RBE2 was tested on a M2000.

Dimension and source and as per my knowledge, a radar with 0.6mt diameters aperture can be fitted easily on tejas...the uttam itself is 0.6*0.4

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yup it's half aesa half pesa. That means it may still be more capable and powerful than full aesa radar of smaller planes like f16 of USA.

Su30mki is a beast.

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Its majority pesa and uses TWT to generate and amplify the waves.
It is powerful against traditional MSA and pesa radars but not against aesa radars which offer lpi, high gain,low side lobes and ability to operate at wide band at full array.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Afaik,

1) It was assumed that 2052 AESA radar would be flying in LCA mk1A and uttam radar only in LCA mk2 which is MWF now. But delay in mk1a has now given that extra time for uttam to compete with 2052.Indian air force is now open to check both radars and will opt uttam if uttam is within 10% performance shortage also.
2) Uttam radar was always designed keeping LCA in mind. Be it the TRM , power or cooling everything was planned optimally for LCA. DRDO believes this is going to huge advantage compared to 2052.
3) Uttam testing is really going well with one of the reports saying that it's A2A mode performance is now within 10% of the expected performance.
4) With these results DRDO is expecting it can put beat 2052 which has to be downsized and adapted to match the parameters of LCA.
5) I got news that uttam could be ready by next year september in current pace with no major pickups. Even satish reddy has confirmed the same except for month.
6) Meteor was never planned in Astra nor sukhoi. LCA major weapons would astra and sfdr. However Upgrading of uttam aesa radar on to sukhoi is planned once it is proven on LCA.
7) meteor will only be planned on rafale only and there are no plans of iaf to integrate it with either sukhoi nor lca. Iaf is looking at sfdr as a long term solution.

2. Uttam is designed keeping lca in mind however TRMM technology is developed independent of uttam radar, and the same trmm is also used for the fcr on qrsam and possibly XRSAM.
3. ELM2052 will be a challenge to fit on lca as the back end and front end was never designed to fit in the lca unless they are redesigned to fit in the lca, last i know the array unit of ELM2052 is curvy Square which not only has disadvantage for more packing of trm on the array for small size but also wastes a lot of space which is avialable on the round shaped area of the lca.
6. Aesa advantage gives iaf a freedom of space of integration of any long range missile on LCA.

 

[Steven Rogers]

What means "UTTAM is ready"?
To built a prototype is one thing (with lab components). To have all the industrial tools to produce it in serial is another.
How mature are the softwares to dive the antenna? It's a long and difficult task to fine tuned the soft for air to air, ait to ground, air to sea, counter measures...

The TRMM Technology is currently produced en-masse for various firecontrol radars, one such is used for qrsam.

 

[IndianHawk]

Its majority pesa and uses TWT to generate and amplify the waves.
It is powerful against traditional MSA and pesa radars but not against aesa radars which offer lpi, high gain,low side lobes and ability to operate at wide band at full array.

Not all aesa are same. An aesa on rafale will have much more power on disposal Vs aesa on f16 or gripen. In that sense how does aesa on f16 ( which porky might get in future) compare to hybrid radar of su30?

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[Steven Rogers]

110w for 7 trm stands like roughly 15w per trm or 1.5 kw for 1000 trm.

I thought GaN consume more power....ccooling req is higher than GaAs trms. Any other radars for power comparison.

I am a layman in terms of radar stuff. Guys what did I miss

Absolutely no,that stands for 110Watt being transmitted from every s band transmitter packaged in a single multi trmm. So it actually is 7*110,its not A surprise, s band operate at longer wavelength and low frequency which desired to transmit higher it order to gain without significantly increasing the noise.

 

[IndianHawk]

2. Uttam is designed keeping lca in mind however TRMM technology is developed independent of uttam radar, and the same trmm is also used for the fcr on qrsam and possibly XRSAM.
3. ELM2052 will be a challenge to fit on lca as the back end and front end was never designed to fit in the lca unless they are redesigned to fit in the lca, last i know the array unit of ELM2052 is curvy Square which not only has disadvantage for more packing of trm on the array for small size but also wastes a lot of space which is avialable on the round shaped area of the lca.
6. Aesa advantage gives iaf a freedom of space of integration of any long range missile on LCA.

They fit it into jaguar. And they knew back then that they will get orders for lca! ( If was the condition of selling aesa for jaguar ). So I guess they would've figured it out.

Anyway fully indian aesa is far more preferable.

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[Steven Rogers]

Not all aesa are same. An aesa on rafale will have much more power on disposal Vs aesa on f16 or gripen. In that sense how does aesa on f16 ( which porky might get in future) compare to hybrid radar of su30?

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Depends upon the power avialable,f 16 and gripen are now mid category fighters and with bigger thrust engine,tge power required is negligble of what an engine produces in the measure of thrust,the avialable power is sufficient for the radars (since they are now production grade) which now have 1000snds of trms on each(little higher than what on rafale due to bigger antenna size). Gripen with GaN technology offers significant improvement in radar gain than any mentioned radars.

 

[Steven Rogers]

They fit it into jaguar. And they knew back then that they will get orders for lca! ( If was the condition of selling aesa for jaguar ). So I guess they would've figured it out.

Anyway fully indian aesa is far more preferable.

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They fit a radar on jaguar which has merely 300 trm, the other one has 500trm and the biggest has 1500trms,it is wise to fit uttam if avialable than fitting elm2052,however as per my study,it will be a miracle in qualifying uttam with 2 years of flight testings when experts take half a decade or more.

 

[Steven Rogers]

All radars on consideration for Tejas have been in the 130km range (including the RBE-2 radar that Thales offered to downsize for Tejas). Beyond the mere TR-count the power available to the aircraft also determines the size and range of radar fitted on.
Rest assured, Tejas won't have 250-300 kms radar range!!

The power avialable on tejas is approx 7.5kw ,rest is true but tejas can boost 200km range for modes like tws.

 

[IndianHawk]

The power avialable on tejas is approx 7.5kw ,rest is true but tejas can boost 200km range for modes like tws.

With 200km range lca mk1a itself can outmatch f16 if it has the sfdr or meteor as bvr!

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[Steven Rogers]

With 200km range lca mk1a itself can outmatch f16 if it has the sfdr or meteor as bvr!

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Derby ER will be the best utilized along with the astra as these missiles will do 80 percent of the missions than any expensive golden arrow,meteor may be integrated bUt astra and Derby will be the mainstay.

 

[IndianHawk]

Derby ER will be the best utilized along with the astra as these missiles will do 80 percent of the missions than any expensive golden arrow,meteor may be integrated by astra and Derby will be the mainstay.

Exactly meteor or sfdr or only needed as tip of the spear. The challenge in the future is paki getting hands on aim 120D and Chinese making pl15 effective. We need to outmatch those with tip of the spear kind scramjet missile.

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[Steven Rogers]

Exactly meteor or sfdr or only needed as tip of the spear. The challenge in the future is paki getting hands on aim 120D and Chinese making pl15 effective. We need to outmatch those with tip of the spear kind scramjet missile.

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Im not sure about the capability of pl15,but pakis will never get AIM120D,they might get AIM120C7 and for which our Astra is a match.