India's own AESA Radars....dream to reality

[Enquirer]

Point is gripen has small radar and only single engine power.
Meteor is still more deadly than aim 120c5/c7 even at 130 km range as it's NEZ is much higher so lca mk1a can effectively use it and achieve superiority over Pakistani f16 even with 130 km range.


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Think of INSAS. No foreign military would buy. You can go around touting that a million rifles exist in IA, but that doesn’t impress anyone!
Gripen happened to be an easy testbed.... that’s all!! At best if cues are offered by another radar/awacs it maybe useful....but I’d effectively doesn’t make cost-effective sense for a foreign military to BUY that jugaad!

Also just because UTTAM is now integrated with a business jet for testing, will UTTAM be offered to all business jets for fitment?

 

[IndianHawk]

Think of INSAS. No foreign military would buy. You can go around touting that a million rifles exist in IA, but that doesn’t impress anyone!
Gripen happened to be an easy testbed.... that’s all!! At best if cues are offered by another radar/awacs it maybe useful....but I’d effectively doesn’t make cost-effective sense for a foreign military to BUY that jugaad!

Also just because UTTAM is now integrated with a business jet for testing, will UTTAM be offered to all business jets for fitment?

What does insas has to do with uttam and meteor?
MBDA said it is ready to mate Meteor with Indian radar aka Uttam . Now ball is in our court.
Is it cost effective to use meteor with a radar of 150 km range ? Probably yes if there is no other better alternative available. I derby ER will outrange aim 120c5 but paki will get there hands on 120c5 and even 120d in future.

Meteor + lca mk1a with Uttam can still outgun aim 120c/d even with limited radar range as meteor NEZ is bigger than aim 120c/d.

So it will work . Cost is a matter iaf and govt Should decide.

Anyway Uttam alone isn't enough for mk1a an Uttam aesa based ew suite need to evolve too only then can Uttam go into and mk1a.

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[HariPrasad-1]

Point is gripen has small radar and only single engine power.
Meteor is still more deadly than aim 120c5/c7 even at 130 km range as it's NEZ is much higher so lca mk1a can effectively use it and achieve superiority over Pakistani f16 even with 130 km range.


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There are two types of scenarios. First you can detect anemy plane from much longer distance but you don't have sufficient range bvr to engage it. In second scenario , you have a very long Bridge BVR but you cannot trake the anemy planne from the distance. LCA being small in size and stelthier in nature will be very difficult for JF 17 radar to detect it from the engagement range of any variant of AIMS. On other hand, LCA can track bundar from a distance of over 150 km and engage it with Meteor or Astra MK2 or with I durby at more than 120 km. JF 17 can not do that with Tejas at a distance above 70 km though it may have a bvr with a range of above 130 km.

 

[Enquirer]

What does insas has to do with uttam and meteor?
MBDA said it is ready to mate Meteor with Indian radar aka Uttam . Now ball is in our court.
Is it cost effective to use meteor with a radar of 150 km range ? Probably yes if there is no other better alternative available. I derby ER will outrange aim 120c5 but paki will get there hands on 120c5 and even 120d in future.

Meteor + lca mk1a with Uttam can still outgun aim 120c/d even with limited radar range as meteor NEZ is bigger than aim 120c/d.

So it will work . Cost is a matter iaf and govt Should decide.

Anyway Uttam alone isn't enough for mk1a an Uttam aesa based ew suite need to evolve too only then can Uttam go into and mk1a.

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It is to illustrate that local jugaad (to profit one company or one country) doesn't always sell in international markets!

Well it is upto IAF if they have that kind of budgets to blow...equipping Meteors on ~100 Tejas (assuming 10 purchased per aircraft) would cost $3 Billion in all....when Astras could do the job for less than $1 Billion!

Tejas in that case would only be acting as mules carrying long range missiles...firing them on cue from AWACS or other aircraft!

Not to mention the absurdity with IAF logistics that would arise......long range aircraft with long range radars (Su-30MKI) will be carrying short range missiles, while short range aircraft with short range radars (Tejas) will be carrying long range missiles!!!!

 

[IndianHawk]

It is to illustrate that local jugaad (to profit one company or one country) doesn't always sell in international markets!

Well it is upto IAF if they have that kind of budgets to blow...equipping Meteors on ~100 Tejas (assuming 10 purchased per aircraft) would cost $3 Billion in all....when Astras could do the job for less than $1 Billion!

Tejas in that case would only be acting as mules carrying long range missiles...firing them on cue from AWACS or other aircraft!

Not to mention the absurdity with IAF logistics that would arise......long range aircraft with long range radars (Su-30MKI) will be carrying short range missiles, while short range aircraft with short range radars (Tejas) will be carrying long range missiles!!!!

10 per aircraft are not necessary. Even all aircrafts need not have it. 3-4 per squadron can have meteor . When 4-6 Lca will fly in formation with aircraft even if only one carries meteor paki won't know which one and hence paki will have to work with assumption that any of the lca can have meteor and paki will stay well behind 130-150 km and aim120 c/d will become useless for them !

And not to forget rafale will be in mix too making things dangerous for paki.

That way out of 6 sq of lca mk1 we need to provide meteor to only 30-40 fighters . Even 10 for each still under 500 missile bulk ordered cost around a billion.

Even if we spend 2Billion on meteor it is justified as these 2 billion can now make mince meat out of entire paki fleet including Thier block 52 f16 . And these 2billion will also keep safe entire lca fighters in air battle ( by keeping them out of enemy range) . This is better use of money. What is the point of having an expensive bigger aircraft only to be outranged by enemies !


So it has dual benefit of protecting our own and shooting the enemy down from safe distance.

About su30 bvr if MBDA won't mate Meteor to it the only alternative is to speed up sfdr. In meantime get rvv- sd or derby ER to match aim120.

Lca may be small but it is leaping ahead in technology it is getting aesa before su30mki too. We can't stop other fighters leaping ahead just because Russian have no ready answer to meteor !



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[IndianHawk]

There are two types of scenarios. First you can detect anemy plane from much longer distance but you don't have sufficient range bvr to engage it. In second scenario , you have a very long Bridge BVR but you cannot trake the anemy planne from the distance. LCA being small in size and stelthier in nature will be very difficult for JF 17 radar to detect it from the engagement range of any variant of AIMS. On other hand, LCA can track bundar from a distance of over 150 km and engage it with Meteor or Astra MK2 or with I durby at more than 120 km. JF 17 can not do that with Tejas at a distance above 70 km though it may have a bvr with a range of above 130 km.

Jf17 is dead meat . It can only use Chinese missile which are useless just as useless Chinese aesa is.

We are talking about lca mk1a vs f16 . Paki f16 don't have aesa as of now so lca mk1a with smaller aesa and long range bvr can put it on defensive .

Not to mention soon rafale with meteor will push them even more back and S400 will hunt them till Afghanistan !

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[HariPrasad-1]

Jf17 is dead meat . It can only use Chinese missile which are useless just as useless Chinese aesa is.

We are talking about lca mk1a vs f16 . Paki f16 don't have aesa as of now so lca mk1a with smaller aesa and long range bvr can put it on defensive .

Not to mention soon rafale with meteor will push them even more back and S400 will hunt them till Afghanistan !

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Correct. Even F16 with AESA radar can not engage Tejas before Tejas shoot BVR at F 16.

 

[Enquirer]

10 per aircraft are not necessary. Even all aircrafts need not have it. 3-4 per squadron can have meteor . When 4-6 Lca will fly in formation with aircraft even if only one carries meteor paki won't know which one and hence paki will have to work with assumption that any of the lca can have meteor and paki will stay well behind 130-150 km and aim120 c/d will become useless for them !

And not to forget rafale will be in mix too making things dangerous for paki.

That way out of 6 sq of lca mk1 we need to provide meteor to only 30-40 fighters . Even 10 for each still under 500 missile bulk ordered cost around a billion.

Even if we spend 2Billion on meteor it is justified as these 2 billion can now make mince meat out of entire paki fleet including Thier block 52 f16 . And these 2billion will also keep safe entire lca fighters in air battle ( by keeping them out of enemy range) . This is better use of money. What is the point of having an expensive bigger aircraft only to be outranged by enemies !


So it has dual benefit of protecting our own and shooting the enemy down from safe distance.

About su30 bvr if MBDA won't mate Meteor to it the only alternative is to speed up sfdr. In meantime get rvv- sd or derby ER to match aim120.

Lca may be small but it is leaping ahead in technology it is getting aesa before su30mki too. We can't stop other fighters leaping ahead just because Russian have no ready answer to meteor !



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As I said local jugaad's don't go international!!

Swedish Air force has ALL Gripens!! And for SAAB it only makes sense that its aircraft and its missile are mated together!!

IAF has limited budget! First logical step would be that IAF's long-range aircraft/radar have long range missiles....before embarking on 'athrangi' jugaad on fitting long range missiles on mule aircraft!!!

And don't forget that request for mating Meteor with Uttam etc won't be cheap. MBDA will try to extract the price as if 1000-2000 missiles were sold (even if you order a minuscule). Remember that Honeywell offered F-125 turbofans for Jaguar at $8 million per engine & $8 million to fit it. When MoD decided to give the contract of fitmet to HAL, Honeywell upped the price per engine to $16 million!!

So leave all your khayali pulao. IAF has limited budget and it needs to spend it in a way that will provide the best operational capability......not merely to demonstrate a tech prototype of what is possible!

 

[IndianHawk]

As I said local jugaad's don't go international!!

Swedish Air force has ALL Gripens!! And for SAAB it only makes sense that its aircraft and its missile are mated together!!

IAF has limited budget! First logical step would be that IAF's long-range aircraft/radar have long range missiles....before embarking on 'athrangi' jugaad on fitting long range missiles on mule aircraft!!!

And don't forget that request for mating Meteor with Uttam etc won't be cheap. MBDA will try to extract the price as if 1000-2000 missiles were sold (even if you order a minuscule). Remember that Honeywell offered F-125 turbofans for Jaguar at $8 million per engine & $8 million to fit it. When MoD decided to give the contract of fitmet to HAL, Honeywell upped the price per engine to $16 million!!

So leave all your khayali pulao. IAF has limited budget and it needs to spend it in a way that will provide the best operational capability......not merely to demonstrate a tech prototype of what is possible!

Ok what are iaf long range aircrafts ??
Rafale will come with meteor already.
Mirage don't have an aesa.
Su 30mki program is already going on with either rvv-sd or derby ER. No meteor for it because of Russian radar!

So these programs are already going on and are funded accordingly.

Meteor will be costly no doubt but a 2 million dollar missile protects a 40-60 million fighter while targeting a 50-80 million enemy fighter (f16)

The math says investment in long range bvr is more sensible than having more aircraft with inferior missile.

And fyi this whole lca with meteor circus was started by IAF itself after that MBDA declined to mate Meteor with Israeli radar.

If IAF doesn't have budget why did they raise such a demand ? Are they not aware of limitations of lca radar and cost of meteor?
IAF wants as many meteor capable fighter as it can have before sfdr is ready . That is what IAF wants.

Anyway this is no jugad it's proper science we have the source code of Uttam aesa and MBDA has source codes of meteor if both are willing it will be mated .

Another math paki have only 500 or so aim 120 which are dangerous to us. So we don't need 1000-2000 meteor to counter them . We can have 500-600 Meteor and counter them more effectively.

Anyway a capability is judged not just by cost but it's effectiveness in war. That is why we mate bramhos with some su30 MKI despite bramhos costing 3 million each. We just mate them with 40-50 su30 at huge cost( airframe had to be strengthened) . Why is then idea of having meteor for 30 some lca out of 120 is so foreign to you?

Honeywell saga is different as they have no other interests in India at the moment. MBDA has eyes on huge Indian defense market for years to come not to forget more missiles for both rafale and mirage in future .

Why do you think Thales was so eager to downscale rbe radar for lca ? So that lca weaponry becomes European!

 

[Enquirer]

Ok what are iaf long range aircrafts ??
Rafale will come with meteor already.
Mirage don't have an aesa.
Su 30mki program is already going on with either rvv-sd or derby ER. No meteor for it because of Russian radar!

So these programs are already going on and are funded accordingly.

Meteor will be costly no doubt but a 2 million dollar missile protects a 40-60 million fighter while targeting a 50-80 million enemy fighter (f16)

The math says investment in long range bvr is more sensible than having more aircraft with inferior missile.

And fyi this whole lca with meteor circus was started by IAF itself after that MBDA declined to mate Meteor with Israeli radar.

If IAF doesn't have budget why did they raise such a demand ? Are they not aware of limitations of lca radar and cost of meteor?
IAF wants as many meteor capable fighter as it can have before sfdr is ready . That is what IAF wants.

Anyway this is no jugad it's proper science we have the source code of Uttam aesa and MBDA has source codes of meteor if both are willing it will be mated .

Another math paki have only 500 or so aim 120 which are dangerous to us. So we don't need 1000-2000 meteor to counter them . We can have 500-600 Meteor and counter them more effectively.

Anyway a capability is judged not just by cost but it's effectiveness in war. That is why we mate bramhos with some su30 MKI despite bramhos costing 3 million each. We just mate them with 40-50 su30 at huge cost( airframe had to be strengthened) . Why is then idea of having meteor for 30 some lca out of 120 is so foreign to you?

Honeywell saga is different as they have no other interests in India at the moment. MBDA has eyes on huge Indian defense market for years to come not to forget more missiles for both rafale and mirage in future .

Why do you think Thales was so eager to downscale rbe radar for lca ? So that lca weaponry becomes European!

If you're going on a long hike in a mountainous terrain, then the first thing you need to take care of is good shoes.....and then think of the gloves. Your entire logic is analogous to getting bewitched by some fancy expensive gloves and happy with the 'hawaii chappal' for the mountainous hike - with some weird justification that if the feet hurt you'll caress it occasionally with the gloves!!

For better or worse, Su-30MKI is the mainstay of IAF. IAF will need to solve the long range missile issue with Su-30MKI before Tejas (which is not well suited for long range missiles in the first place.....maybe with LCA MWF & and a more powerful radar)!

There's no real confirmation on the type of missiles purchased recently for Su-30MKI....there're only media speculations. In all likelihood, the purchases were just replacement for out-lifed missiles.

Things will shake out in the next few months...just wait and watch.

 

[IndianHawk]

If you're going on a long hike in a mountainous terrain, then the first thing you need to take care of is good shoes.....and then think of the gloves. Your entire logic is analogous to getting bewitched by some fancy expensive gloves and happy with the 'hawaii chappal' for the mountainous hike - with some weird justification that if the feet hurt you'll caress it occasionally with the gloves!!

For better or worse, Su-30MKI is the mainstay of IAF. IAF will need to solve the long range missile issue with Su-30MKI before Tejas (which is not well suited for long range missiles in the first place.....maybe with LCA MWF & and a more powerful radar)!

There's no real confirmation on the type of missiles purchased recently for Su-30MKI....there're only media speculations. In all likelihood, the purchases were just replacement for out-lifed missiles.

Things will shake out in the next few months...just wait and watch.

You didn't answer the question. Yes su30 is mainstay but it's progress is dependent on Russia . Now if Russian don't have an aesa for it or longer range bvr than su30 upgrade will be delayed . Throwing money at it is not going to solve the issue.

We can't stop other programs from progressing in the meantime. The fancy expensive meteor is a demand of IAF not mine. I'm simply pointing out that it is a possibility technically.

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[abingdonboy]

Think of INSAS. No foreign military would buy. You can go around touting that a million rifles exist in IA, but that doesn’t impress anyone!
Gripen happened to be an easy testbed.... that’s all!! At best if cues are offered by another radar/awacs it maybe useful....but I’d effectively doesn’t make cost-effective sense for a foreign military to BUY that jugaad!

Also just because UTTAM is now integrated with a business jet for testing, will UTTAM be offered to all business jets for fitment?

It’s not about Jugaad or anything like that. IAF has publicly stated that they don’t require Meteor on LCA. If that changes in the future then it will be a different conversation.

For now priorities should be Astra and derby ER.

 

[IndianHawk]

The whole point to have our own radar aesa is to be independent in choice of weapons.

That is the purpose of Uttam to provide more options for lca mk1a. We can integrate any missile to it as long as missile manufacturer is willing to sell. No third party involved !

We can integrate Astra mk1 mk2 and derby ER and even meteor and in near future sfdr.

What we now need is to scale up Uttam to be able to replace bars on su30 MKI so that dependence on Russia and Russian aam can be avoided .

Looking at lca mk1a it will have Astra for sure in future. Derby ER looks set to work with 2052 as that is already operational with Columbian air force.

With derby ER lca mk1a will match aim120c5/c7.

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[IndianHawk]

It’s not about Jugaad or anything like that. IAF has publicly stated that they don’t require Meteor on LCA. If that changes in the future then it will be a different conversation.

For now priorities should be Astra and derby ER.

They said they want a meteor class of missile on lca not exactly meteor. They know meteor won't come as lca went for Israeli radar instead of French.

Now with Uttam ready the situation has changed.

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[BON PLAN]

I doubt about Meteor!
Uttam has a very limited range (around 130kms search range and smaller targeting range). If the radar cannot see a far off target then it cannot possibly fire at it!
So, Tejas won't have Meteor.
Also, if Meteor made sense on Tejas then it might have made sense with Israeli radar too (French were mostly opposed to integration with Russian radar.....on Su-30MKI where Meteor made most sense given the long range radar)

Meteor on Su : it's not a French decision I think.
Meteor is a EU missile. Mainly financed by UK.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas radome is as big as rafale or maybe slightly bigger . If radar is limited range it's power supply issue not size.

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No. It's not true .

 

[BON PLAN]

Ok what are iaf long range aircrafts ??
Rafale will come with meteor already.
Mirage don't have an aesa.
Su 30mki program is already going on with either rvv-sd or derby ER. No meteor for it because of Russian radar!

So these programs are already going on and are funded accordingly.

Meteor will be costly no doubt but a 2 million dollar missile protects a 40-60 million fighter while targeting a 50-80 million enemy fighter (f16)

The math says investment in long range bvr is more sensible than having more aircraft with inferior missile.

And fyi this whole lca with meteor circus was started by IAF itself after that MBDA declined to mate Meteor with Israeli radar.

If IAF doesn't have budget why did they raise such a demand ? Are they not aware of limitations of lca radar and cost of meteor?
IAF wants as many meteor capable fighter as it can have before sfdr is ready . That is what IAF wants.

Anyway this is no jugad it's proper science we have the source code of Uttam aesa and MBDA has source codes of meteor if both are willing it will be mated .

Another math paki have only 500 or so aim 120 which are dangerous to us. So we don't need 1000-2000 meteor to counter them . We can have 500-600 Meteor and counter them more effectively.

Anyway a capability is judged not just by cost but it's effectiveness in war. That is why we mate bramhos with some su30 MKI despite bramhos costing 3 million each. We just mate them with 40-50 su30 at huge cost( airframe had to be strengthened) . Why is then idea of having meteor for 30 some lca out of 120 is so foreign to you?

Honeywell saga is different as they have no other interests in India at the moment. MBDA has eyes on huge Indian defense market for years to come not to forget more missiles for both rafale and mirage in future .

Why do you think Thales was so eager to downscale rbe radar for lca ? So that lca weaponry becomes European!

AESA radar is a must, but it's not suddenly the end of classical antenna radars!
EF used as for now a classical radar and is able to fire Meteor.

 

[BON PLAN]

They said they want a meteor class of missile on lca not exactly meteor. They know meteor won't come as lca went for Israeli radar instead of French.

Now with Uttam ready the situation has changed.

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What means "UTTAM is ready"?
To built a prototype is one thing (with lab components). To have all the industrial tools to produce it in serial is another.
How mature are the softwares to dive the antenna? It's a long and difficult task to fine tuned the soft for air to air, ait to ground, air to sea, counter measures...

 

[IndianHawk]

What means "UTTAM is ready"?
To built a prototype is one thing (with lab components). To have all the industrial tools to produce it in serial is another.
How mature are the softwares to dive the antenna? It's a long and difficult task to fine tuned the soft for air to air, ait to ground, air to sea, counter measures...

DRDO chief says it's ready.

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[IndianHawk]

No. It's not true .

Put the dimensions of radome of both here.

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