India's Nuclear Doctrine

[CCP]

From an Engineering perspective its not a big deal.... and yes 2 and 3 are redundant.... Any logical person will conclude the capability.. Dependability will increase over time...

You should ask your planners if they are worried or not!

logical people in this forum concluded the capability even without the test NO.1.

By your " logic", there is no weapon(or anything) used to be tested.

 

[laughingbuddha]

How convinient that the 5 permanent security have all carried out thermo/nuclear tests etc to perfect their weapons and delivery systems and then the 3 who are part of NATO sponsor prohibition of further nuclear tests by any other nation. The US nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear strike if "it, its allies or partners" are threatened; meaning their NATO allies and political partners need not carry out their own tests as the US will "shield, arm" them. The US already has nuclear strike capability based all over the world in their allies' domains. They have even armed the british nuclear subs with US nuclear warheads while prohibiting transfer of tech or nuclear arms between other nations.
The new govt is therefore expected to rejig the indian nuclear doctrine which hopefully may also include a strategic nuclear shield and attack treaty with russia.

 

[archie]

logical people in this forum concluded the capability even without the test NO.1.

By your " logic", there is no weapon(or anything) used to be tested.

The logic employed is constraints vs need.. The constraints of the testing site we're villages barley 5-6Km from the actual explosion... hence the power was limited..

Further Engineers look for boundaries of a system.. or how the said system behaves.. so essentially for a bomb say the Trigger and structure of arrangement is what is needed.. that can be achieved even with a less than powerful explosion.. once you have validated the system you can easily increase the power which in essence can be done by adding more material or using higher enriched material..

Do reply IF you have something credible to add

 

[archie]

FYI Czar Bomb was a 50 Megaton with a capability of 100 megaton .. Essentially design matters .. not the explosive weight (for testing)

Tsar Bomba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CCP]

FYI Czar Bomb was a 50 Megaton with a capability of 100 megaton .. Essentially design matters .. not the explosive weight (for testing)

Tsar Bomba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was a successful test. Have you done any thing like that?

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

How convinient that the 5 permanent security have all carried out thermo/nuclear tests etc to perfect their weapons and delivery systems and then the 3 who are part of NATO sponsor prohibition of further nuclear tests by any other nation. The US nuclear doctrine states that it will use nuclear strike if "it, its allies or partners" are threatened; meaning their NATO allies and political partners need not carry out their own tests as the US will "shield, arm" them. The US already has nuclear strike capability based all over the world in their allies' domains. They have even armed the british nuclear subs with US nuclear warheads while prohibiting transfer of tech or nuclear arms between other nations.
The new govt is therefore expected to rejig the indian nuclear doctrine which hopefully may also include a strategic nuclear shield and attack treaty with russia.

NTBT and other controlling treaties have given India and Indians to show our expertise in the field and this is a great opportunity for us to develop indigenous missiles, if not we would have to depend entirely on Russia for everything and they would have en-cashed upon us heavily and would have drained more money from our economy and along with this the Russian Mafia would haven been controlling the whole of India.

 

[archie]

It was a successful test. Have you done any thing like that?

You are still missing the point.. Russia can claim it has 100 Megaton bomb and can back it up if needed... (Meaning design is verified even if a lower power test was carried out )

Hence it is not necessary to carry out a multi mega ton test .. only the design is tested.. If you dont understand ..
... Any countries think tank will know

 

[CCP]

You are still missing the point.. Russia can claim it has 100 Megaton bomb and can back it up if needed... (Meaning design is verified even if a lower power test was carried out )

Hence it is not necessary to carry out a multi mega ton test .. only the design is tested.. If you dont understand ..
... Any countries think tank will know

List of nuclear weapons tests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India announced it had conducted a test of a single device in 1974 near Pakistan's eastern border under the codename Operation Smiling Buddha. After 24 years, India publicly announced five further nuclear tests on May 11 and May 13, 1998. The official number of Indian nuclear tests is 6, conducted under two different code-names and at different times.

May 18, 1974: Operation Smiling Buddha (type: implosion, plutonium and underground). One underground test in a horizontal shaft around 107 m long under the long-constructed Indian Army Pokhran Test Range (IA-PTR) in the Thar Desert, eastern border of Pakistan. The Indian Meteorological Department and the Atomic Energy Commission announced the yield of the weapon at 12 kt. Other Western sources claimed the yield to be around 2–12 kt. However, the claim was dismissed by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and it was later reported to be 8 kt.[13]

May 11, 1998: Operation Shakti (type: implosion, 3 uranium and 2 plutonium devices, all underground). The Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) of India and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) simultaneously conducted a test of three nuclear devices at the Indian Army Pokhran Test Range (IAPTR) on May 11, 1998. Two days later, on May 13, the AEC and DRDO carried out a test of two further nuclear devices, detonated simultaneously. During this operation, AEC India claimed to have tested a three-stage thermonuclear device (Teller-Ulam design), but the yield of the tests was significantly lower than that expected from thermonuclear devices. The yields remain questionable, at best, by Western and Indian scholars, estimated at 20kt-45kt.

 

[archie]

List of nuclear weapons tests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India announced it had conducted a test of a single device in 1974 near Pakistan's eastern border under the codename Operation Smiling Buddha. After 24 years, India publicly announced five further nuclear tests on May 11 and May 13, 1998. The official number of Indian nuclear tests is 6, conducted under two different code-names and at different times.

May 18, 1974: Operation Smiling Buddha (type: implosion, plutonium and underground). One underground test in a horizontal shaft around 107 m long under the long-constructed Indian Army Pokhran Test Range (IA-PTR) in the Thar Desert, eastern border of Pakistan. The Indian Meteorological Department and the Atomic Energy Commission announced the yield of the weapon at 12 kt. Other Western sources claimed the yield to be around 2–12 kt. However, the claim was dismissed by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and it was later reported to be 8 kt.[13]

May 11, 1998: Operation Shakti (type: implosion, 3 uranium and 2 plutonium devices, all underground). The Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) of India and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) simultaneously conducted a test of three nuclear devices at the Indian Army Pokhran Test Range (IAPTR) on May 11, 1998. Two days later, on May 13, the AEC and DRDO carried out a test of two further nuclear devices, detonated simultaneously. During this operation, AEC India claimed to have tested a three-stage thermonuclear device (Teller-Ulam design), but the yield of the tests was significantly lower than that expected from thermonuclear devices. The yields remain questionable, at best, by Western and Indian scholars, estimated at 20kt-45kt.

Significantly lower is different from no expected detonation.. Further none of the sources claimed are reputable and at best estimates. The real results and designed objectives of the test have till now not been revealed.

The explosion and aftermath have successfully confirmed capability of boosted , fission and fusion devices... The question of yield and efficiency can be estimated .. further accuracy of such an estimate requires more data. or release of information from the concerned departments

 

[CCP]

Significantly lower is different from no expected detonation..

Check yield data of rest of the world.

Further none of the sources claimed are reputable and at best estimates. The real results and designed objectives of the test have till now not been revealed.

You mean the result from your official was not true?

The explosion and aftermath have successfully confirmed capability of boosted , fission and fusion devices...

How do you know that? if "The real results and designed objectives of the test have till now not been revealed. "

 

[archie]

Pokhran-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nuclear bombs and detonations[edit]
Five nuclear devices were detonated during Operation Shakti.[13] They were:[12]

Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt, but designed for up to 200 kt.
Shakti II – A plutonium implosion design yielding 15 kt and intended as a warhead that could be delivered by bomber or missile. It was an improvement of the device detonated in the 1974 Smiling Buddha (Pokhran-I) test of 1974, developed using simulations on the PARAM supercomputer.
Shakti III – An experimental boosted fission design that used "non-weapon grade"[14] plutonium, but which likely omitted the material required for fusion, yielding 0.3 kt.
Shakti IV- A 0.5 kt experimental device.
Shakti V – A 0.2 kt experimental device that used uranium-233.
An additional, sixth device (Shakti VI) is suspected to have been present but not detonated.[12]

At 3:43 pm IST; three nuclear bombs (specifically, the Shakti I, II and III) were detonated simultaneously, as measured by international seismic monitors.[8] On 13 May, at 12.21 p.m.IST 6:51 UTC, two sub-kiloton devices (Shakti IV and V) were detonated. Due to their very low yield, these explosions were not detected by any seismic station.[8] On 13 May 1998, India declared the series of tests to be over after this


In this press meet the Indian scientists claimed that the two fission device produced a yield of 15kt and 0.3kt was obtained from the low yield device.[8] They also claimed that the thermonuclear device gave a total yield of 45kt; the 15kt force was generated from the fission trigger and 30kt from the fusion process and that the theoretical yield of the device (200 kt) was reduced to 45 kt to minimise seismic damage to villages near the test range.[8] The village closest to the test range, Khetolai, was a mere 5 kilometres away

 

[CCP]

Pokhran-II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nuclear bombs and detonations[edit]
Five nuclear devices were detonated during Operation Shakti.[13] They were:[12]

Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt, but designed for up to 200 kt.
Shakti II – A plutonium implosion design yielding 15 kt and intended as a warhead that could be delivered by bomber or missile. It was an improvement of the device detonated in the 1974 Smiling Buddha (Pokhran-I) test of 1974, developed using simulations on the PARAM supercomputer.
Shakti III – An experimental boosted fission design that used "non-weapon grade"[14] plutonium, but which likely omitted the material required for fusion, yielding 0.3 kt.
Shakti IV- A 0.5 kt experimental device.
Shakti V – A 0.2 kt experimental device that used uranium-233.
An additional, sixth device (Shakti VI) is suspected to have been present but not detonated.[12]

At 3:43 pm IST; three nuclear bombs (specifically, the Shakti I, II and III) were detonated simultaneously, as measured by international seismic monitors.[8] On 13 May, at 12.21 p.m.IST 6:51 UTC, two sub-kiloton devices (Shakti IV and V) were detonated. Due to their very low yield, these explosions were not detected by any seismic station.[8] On 13 May 1998, India declared the series of tests to be over after this

from your source

"Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt, but designed for up to 200 kt."

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Large warheads are not needed when the ultimate goal is mirv's.

 

[CCP]

Large warheads are not needed when the ultimate goal is mirv's.

pre-requirement: Your Independent warheads have enough power.

 

[archie]

from your source

"Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt, but designed for up to 200 kt."

You still are not getting it in your head.. the design that was tested can easily be extended to 200KN with just adding the more gas adding another stage will take it to megaton levels

Read the post again.. it is impossible to test a megaton weapon with testing range being 6km away from population

Anyway the prime reason why a megaton weapon was designed is to be able to take out entire cities even with very high CEP weapons.. The need for such a weapon is diminished with single digit CEP delivery systems ... though the capability exists

 

[CCP]

You still are not getting it in your head.. the design that was tested can easily be extended to 200KN with just adding the more gas adding another stage will take it to megaton levels

you are such a genius.

 

[laughingbuddha]

We'll know who's right when we nuke each other.
Any guesses on what targets are to be hit first?

 

[Compersion]

you are such a genius.

Was thinking:

Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt (a hydrogen bomb with a specific design phase). If India collates and systematizes 7 of these together what is the yield. (315 KT). In fact if India collates and systematizes 3 of these what is the definition.

** There is debate on the actual yield. Some have said it is upto 56KT and the above ratios would change obviously. The most obvious one is two 56 KT = [x]. Does India have the missile capability to do that.

Another way to look at it is if India uses 7 Shakti I independently on a target that damage would be more compared to a single 315 KT weapon since the area would be spread out more compared to a single use of 315KT weapon.

What is the physical size of the PRC Megaton Nuclear Weapon (perhaps one can compare the dimensions and proportions). What is the physical size of the Shakti I test.

Only one way to look at that. Obviously one gets synergies and dynamics in play and India has not tested does not mean it does not have ability. It was the design(s) that were tested. In fact more tests were planned and with the scientists confidence they did not go ahead with them to save the nuclear material. One also does not talk about the other designs that were tested. Also one does not talk about the economics and testing material used for both to reach the same point. What is the level of Nuclear technology and skills between PRC and India. Is one far ahead of the other.

What you are saying is India has not made such a test. But you are not denying the capabilities.

 

[CCP]

Was thinking:

Shakti I – A thermonuclear device yielding 45 kt (a hydrogen bomb with a specific design phase). If India collates and systematizes 7 of these together what is the yield. (315 KT). In fact if India collates and systematizes 3 of these what is the definition.

** There is debate on the actual yield. Some have said it is upto 56KT and the above ratios would change obviously. The most obvious one is two 56 KT = [x]. Does India have the missile capability to do that.

Another way to look at it is if India uses 7 Shakti I independently on a target that damage would be more compared to a single 315 KT weapon since the area would be spread out more compared to a single use of 315KT weapon.

What is the physical size of the PRC Megaton Nuclear Weapon (perhaps one can compare the dimensions and proportions). What is the physical size of the Shakti I test.

Only one way to look at that. Obviously one gets synergies and dynamics in play and India has not tested does not mean it does not have ability. It was the design(s) that were tested. In fact more tests were planned and with the scientists confidence they did not go ahead with them to save the nuclear material. One also does not talk about the other designs that were tested.

China

1.First hydrogen bomb test: "Test No. 6" - June 17, 1967
The yield was 3.3 megatons.dropped by H-6 bomber.
Test No. 6 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(PLA) China Chinese Nuclear bomb testing 1967 - YouTube

 

[Compersion]

China

1.First hydrogen bomb test: "Test No. 6" - June 17, 1967
The yield was 3.3 megatons.dropped by H-6 bomber.
Test No. 6 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(PLA) China Chinese Nuclear bomb testing 1967 - YouTube

Shakti III – An experimental boosted fission design that used "non-weapon grade" plutonium, but which likely omitted the material required for fusion, yielding 0.3 kt.
Shakti IV- A 0.5 kt experimental device.
Shakti V – A 0.2 kt experimental device that used uranium-233.

Has PRC tested such items.

Also what is the physical size - dimensions and proportions of the Test No.6 by PRC and the video you showed (i apologize i did not watch it - does it mention the physical size of the weapon inside the video). That would be helpful in using the ratios of scale on Shakti I.

Perhaps one can look at the lift-off weight and size for a typical H-6 bomber and why that was used.