India's Neutron bomb capability

[tharikiran]

You cannot knock something off course when it has no course.

Switch that to your BRAHMOS. A straight line of flight with its engine and not gravity as its main delivery means. Hit the back of the missile and you lost your engine, not to mention being knocked off your line approach.

Doesn't make any sense to me.If the scud was like throwing a stone then it's trajectory is definitely lot more predictable.Other than that patriots have a homing in radar. As it gets closer to its target, the image in its sensors gets larger and larger.

Now consider patriot missile against a cruise missle. Aren't cruise missiles terrain hugging ? They evade the radar and fly low. Mid course guidance can also be given. This makes the trajectory difficult to detect .It's definitely not flying with a parabola trajectory, the way the scuds were.

So, it's going to be the other way round and not as the officer says.
No disrespect.

For your information, unlike sidewinders patriots work on Radar and not heat signature.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Hypersonic means that you can't steer.

 

[Daredevil]

Hypersonic means that you can't steer.

It also means that enemy has very less reaction time assuming that they have a missile defense system in the first place. I don't think China or Pakistan has any Missile defense system

 

[Yusuf]

Also if Brahmos II has a similar range Then at hypersonic speed it will reach it's target in about three mins. There will be no time for course correction. Steering it within 300 km radius at hypersonic speed is not possible. It would rip spart the missile more than anything else.

 

[tharikiran]

A Patriot missile, instead, depends on radar. The Patriot missile system uses its ground-based radar to find, identify and track the targets. An incoming missile could be 50 miles (80.5 kilometers) away when the Patriot's radar locks onto it. At that distance, the incoming missile would not even be visible to a human being, much less identifiable. It is even possible for the Patriot missile system to operate in a completely automatic mode with no human intervention at all. An incoming missile flying at Mach 5 is traveling approximately one mile every second. There just isn't a lot of time to react and respond once the missile is detected, making automatic detection and launching an important feature.

While the Stinger is a shoulder-launched weapon and the Sidewinder launches from aircraft, Patriot missiles are launched from Patriot missile batteries based on the ground. A typical battery has five components:

The missiles themselves (MIM-104)
The missile launcher, which holds, transports, aims and launches the missiles (M-901). This part is necessary because each missile weighs almost 1 ton.
A radar antenna (MPQ-53 or MPQ-65) to detect incoming missiles.
An equipment van known as the Engagement Control Station (ECS) houses computers and consoles to control the battery. (MSQ-104)
A power plant truck equipped with two 150-kilowatt generators that provide power for the radar antenna and the ECS.

So, how is the patriot going to detect a hypersonic terrain hugging cruise missile if it finds difficult to take down a missile taking a parabolic path travelling at hypersonic speeds ?? Even if the hypersonic cruise missile is travelling in a straight line. If its flying low, then the patriot doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Again, the PATRIOT theory was to hit the back off the incoming vehicle to steer it off course, not the incoming warhead.

As for detecting BARHMOS, the Russians came up with the solution decades ago. Look Down-Shoot Down.

However, I should apologize for not being clear. I am saying the technology exists to hit a hypersonic vehicle.

BRAHMOS is not a hypersonic terrain hugging cruise missile. It can't. Terrain hugging means you have to be able to steer.

 

[roma]

new hypersonic brahmos

referring to OFFICer of Engineers above
" hypersonic means you cant steer "

have we considered the possibility that the newly to be produced hypersonic BRAHMOS may have the capacity to steer when necessary, commanded or demanded and then blast off at hypersonic speeds when the route ahead is straight ??

 

[tharikiran]

Again, the PATRIOT theory was to hit the back off the incoming vehicle to steer it off course, not the incoming warhead.

Sir, let me tell you this--- there was no theory for patriot to hit any tail.

It's guided by radar and when it closes in, it has a proximity fuse and then it explodes.
That's all there is to it.

The idea for the PAC-2 was to fly straight toward the incoming missile and then explode at the point of nearest approach.The explosion will either destroy the incoming missile with the fragments from the fragmentation bomb, or knock the incoming missile off course so it misses the target.

The idea behind a PAC-3 is for the missile to actually hit the incoming target and explode so that the incoming missile is completely destroyed. This feature makes it more effective against chemical and biological warheads because they are destroyed well away from the target.

The biggest difference between the PAC-2 and the PAC-3, and the thing that allows the PAC-3 to actually hit its target, is the fact that the PAC-3 has its own built-in radar transmitter and guidance computer.

 

[Daredevil]

As for detecting BARHMOS, the Russians came up with the solution decades ago. Look Down-Shoot Down.

May be it is possible to detect and take out brahmos missile traveling at super/hyper-sonic speeds with difficulty. But does this capability exist with China or Pakistan will be the question, of which I think they don't have/demonstrated this kind of capability.

Also, for look down shoot down detection and interception, you need a airborne platform all the time to achieve this.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Even if the hypersonic cruise missile is travelling in a straight line. If its flying low, then the patriot doesn't stand a chance.

I am looking for an open sourced description for the solution for you but I can tell you that Soviet MiG-25s had look down-shoot down against American cruise missiles decades ago.

However, I need to find an open source document to give you the details.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

May be it is possible to detect and take out brahmos missile traveling at super/hyper-sonic speeds with difficulty. But does this capability exist with China or Pakistan will be the question, of which I think they don't have/demonstrated this kind of capability.

I don't think the Chinese are thinking that. Active air defence is not their fortay. Passive air defence is more their expertise, camoflauge, multiple decoys, multiple locations, hardened obstacles, etc.

Also, for look down shoot down detection and interception, you need a airborne platform all the time to achieve this.

In a time of war? Would you not expect that as a given until you can reduce their CAP?

 

[tharikiran]

have we considered the possibility that the newly to be produced BRAHMOS may have the capacity to steer when necessary, commanded or demanded and then blast off at hypersonic speeds when the route ahead is straight ??

That's what I think is exactly will be demanded by the army.

Hypersonic, yet maneuverable.
It will be naive or our part to assume it can't be done.
The people working on it know all that we are discussing.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, let me tell you this--- there was no theory for patriot to hit any tail.

It's guided by radar and when it closes in, it has a proximity fuse and then it explodes.
That's all there is to it.

The idea for the PAC-2 was to fly straight toward the incoming missile and then explode at the point of nearest approach.The explosion will either destroy the incoming missile with the fragments from the fragmentation bomb, or knock the incoming missile off course so it misses the target.

Ok, what part of the incoming SCUD was the proximity fuse programmed aimed for?

 

[tharikiran]

The patriot ground radar antenna has a 63 mile (100 kilometer) range.
How on earth is it going to detect a hypersonic cruise missile launched 600 kilometers away. It's flying low . By the time patriot detects the hypersonic cruise missile in its radar range or envelop, it will be too late. A terrain hugging cruise missile travelling at 5 km per second will give a patriot system exactly 20 seconds to react(radar range of 100 km). period

 

[ppgj]

referring to OFFICer of Engineers above
" hypersonic means you cant steer "

have we considered the possibility that the newly to be produced hypersonic BRAHMOS may have the capacity to steer when necessary, commanded or demanded and then blast off at hypersonic speeds when the route ahead is straight ??

it is based on fire and forget principle which means it can't be guided.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Again, it cannot be terrain hugging at hypersonic speeds. Terrain hugging means you need to steer.

As for the radar question, I need to find an open source for you.

 

[tharikiran]

Ok, what part of the incoming SCUD was the proximity fuse programmed aimed for?
Jesus, sir....

Sir, the proximity fuse isn't programmed to blow when it comes close to tail.

When, the patriot missile comes closer to its target or when the radar image tells it that its very close to the target . Say 50 meters away from it's target, that is when the proximity fuse gets activated and the shrapnels from the patriot are launched or whatever bomb the patriot is carrying blows away.
Sometimes, the blow will take down the entire missile and some times the explosion will cause partial damage to the scud and make it to veer off course or target.

Nobody, programs a proximity fuse to blow at the tail.

If the scud is flying horizontal and the patriot missile approaches it perpendicular, then according to you the patriot will never explode till it reaches or sees the tail.

Try to understand the word proximity.target is at a certain distance and explosion takes place. That's all.

 

[Daredevil]

tharikiran,

Few facts for you on Brahmos before you discuss further on Brahmos.

1) Brahmos current range is 300km
2) Brahmos is only supersonic for now. It will be hypersonic in future, but when no body knows.
3) Brahmos is not a terrain-hugging missile.
4) Brahmos cannot do mid course maneuvers. It's maneuvers are only in the initial phase soon after its launch and at the final stage before hitting the target.

Thanks.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Ok, what part of the incoming SCUD was the proximity fuse programmed aimed for?
Jesus, sir....

Sir, the proximity fuse isn't programmed to blow when it comes close to tail.

When, the patriot missile comes closer to its target or when the radar image tells it that its very close to the target . Say 50 meters away from it's target, that is when the proximity fuse gets activated and the shrapnels from the patriot are launched or whatever bomb the patriot is carrying blows away.
Sometimes, the blow will take down the entire missile and some times the explosion will cause partial damage to the scud and make it to veer off course or target.

Nobody, programs a proximity fuse to blow at the tail.

If the scud is flying horizontal and the patriot missile approaches it perpendicular, then according to you the patriot will never explode till it reaches or sees the tail.

Try to understand the word proximity.target is at a certain distance and explosion takes place. That's all.

Ok, I will leave it at this. I cannot find an open source to describe what was told to me by AD regts. Therefore, I will yield to your point here until such time as I can find an open source.

 

[tharikiran]

tharikiran,

Few facts for you on Brahmos before you discuss further on Brahmos.

1) Brahmos current range is 300km
2) Brahmos is only hypersonic for now. It will be supersonic in future, but when no body knows.
3) Brahmos is not a terrain-hugging missile.
4) Brahmos cannot do mid course maneuvers. It's maneuvers are only in the initial phase soon after its launch and at the final stage before hitting the target.

Thanks.

I am very well aware of current Brahmos capabilities, including the S maneuver it did at mach 2.8.
However, we were discussing about patriot capability against hypersonic cruise missiles. To assume hypersonic missiles wont be there is being naive on our part with Brahmos 2 already being lab tested for mach 5.26.

It's just a matter of time.