Indian Tank Ammunition Scenario

[Akim]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

Eh-h, there were old times, when there were not computers in tanks, and in a car from electronics - only radio. :car:

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

As for the cost increase, well every time we have gone for a single vendor situation we have been ripped off. Israelis are the biggest rip offs followed by the French. The very reason why the govt has openly said they don't want to get into single vendor ToTs.

how can price shoot up 300%

 

[Dixit13]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

what is not said in this tender is that fire control computer for T90 will reject any foreign ammo, so first computer programme should be hacked so that ammo from other makers could be fired from the gun.

This was the main problem when Indian and Isreali ammo was used, its computer never recognised the ammo. Sadly we paid top $$$$ for TOT and Russians has withheld this source code for fire control from us, noq they are charging 300 % for same export grade ammo (which ia inferior to ammo used by Russian army).
Break the source code and Russains will offer same ammo for 75%.

ask chinese to make copy of it at 30% of original cost

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

ask chinese to make copy of it at 30% of original cost

we want tank ammo not toys.

 

[Dixit13]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

we want tank ammo not toys.

N from those """"Toys""" you are so afraid off??? That's why so much of army deployed on Indo-china border :taunt1:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

what is not said in this tender is that fire control computer for T90 will reject any foreign ammo, so first computer programme should be hacked so that ammo from other makers could be fired from the gun.

Sir,
Regarding Poland`s Bumar and Ukrainian Rounds, I think there should be no problem..

Both Rounds are influenced by IMI original 125mm round, So there velocity and behavior is similar..

Indian Round though is bit more heavy and little faster and longer, Its unfortunate we are not using it..

Polish Round :

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OFB round:

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This is a pic from 2011 dec, It was in use..

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T-90S use 3BM-42 round from Russian so if we use Ukrainian made 3BM-42 will be no problem...

 

[p2prada]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

how can price shoot up 300%

Duh! Obvious.

C-17s for $400million, USAF buys for $200Million. 200%. FMS sales cannot even be negotiated. They will offer and you can only say yes or no.

Israeli officials have openly said they are selling at very high costs to India. At the same time Indian officials say they have no choice but to pay for it.

The Russian deal did not consider inflation from 2001 deal for T-90s. But it was still higher than expected price. MoD pegged cost of T-90 ammo at Rs 980 Crores and Russians asked for 4000 Crores.

Think about it, 1000 Crores for thousands of Tank APFSDS!!! Why not buy the whole country by paying another 1000 Crores?

Same with MRCA deal. They thought 4.5th generation aircraft will come at $80Million apiece when actual cost is twice that. Heck obsolete 4th gen F-16 Block 52s costed $80Million apiece to PAF back in 2005. And GoI wants to pay the same price for Rafales during the same time when even the French paid a lot more.

MoD needs to be realistic when they are expecting to buy something and try to avoid single vendor situations.

Don't believe everything the media puts in print, you are a lawyer for God's sake. You should know how the media is.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

i think i will go to Defence business very soon......................... surely 300% jump is good business.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Tender for T-90S Tank Ammunition

Some thing regarding MANGO purchase..

 

[LETHALFORCE]

CCS to discuss BrahMos, tank ammunition proposals tomorrow

CCS to discuss BrahMos, tank ammunition proposals tomorrow - Hindustan Times

As the army faces ammunition shortage for its tank regiments, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is expected to consider a proposal of defence ministry to procure over 20,000 of Invar missiles from Russia for T-90 tanks at an estimated cost of around Rs. 2,000 crore. The meeting tomorrow is also expected to discuss the procurement of air-launched version of the 290-km-range BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles for the IAF, they said.

Under the Army proposal, 10,000 Invar missiles would be brought from Russian manufacturers whereas the remaining would be license-produced by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) under Transfer of Technology (ToT), they said.

In a letter to the Prime Minister in March, former Army Chief Gen V K Singh had pointed out that only 3-4 days of tank ammunition was left with some of the units while highlighting the shortages faced by his force.

Invar is weapon fired from the gun barrel of T-90, over 1,600 of which would be inducted into the Indian armed forces in the next few years.

The proposal to buy BrahMos missiles for the IAF involves sanctioning of funds for the integration and testing of the BrahMos missile on Russian-origin Su-30MKI of the IAF, sources said.

As per the plans, the first test of the air-launched version of the supersonic cruise missile, developed jointly by India and Russia, is to be conducted by December-end.

Two Su-30MKI of the IAF would be modified indigenously by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at its Nasik facility where they will also be integrated with the aerial launcher developed by the BrahMos, they said.

The BrahMos missiles integrated on the Su-30s will help the IAF achieve the capability to deliver a deadly blow to enemy formations from stand-off ranges of around 300km without getting close to them.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thread Updated..

 

[Saber]

any one who can tell me about AMK 339, AMK 340 A, AMK 340 mk II about there characteristics and comparison and regarding the challenges India is facing in manufacture of APFSDS ....pls I am working on a project....

 

[militarysta]

any one who can tell me about AMK 339, AMK 340 A, AMK 340 mk II about there characteristics and comparison and regarding the challenges India is facing in manufacture of APFSDS ....pls I am working on a project....

MORE OR LESS ALL YOU HAVE IN THIS TOPIC:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition.html
read it cearfully and you will have most needed answers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AMK 339 = 3BM42
AMK 340 = CL3254M
AMK 340 mk II = CL3579

==========================

AMK 339 = 3BM42

AMK 340 = CL3254M

AMK 340 mk II = CL3579

==========================
==========================

Must read this >>

India was originally reliant on Russian FSAPDS for the T-72 which we procured along with the tank.

The lack of local ammunition for the tank fleet was regarded as a critical limitation so the DRDO was the initiator of FSAPDS capability at OFB, by setting up the HAPP (Heavy Alloys Penetrator Project) at OFB Trichy, which made even the crucial KE tungsten dart. The first FSAPDS were made for the 105mm Armed Vickers MBT (license made in India as the Vijayanta), followed by the 125mm for the T-72 and 120 mm projects for the Arjun.

Hence, the DRDO developed the 125mm Softcore ammunition (MK1) which was manufactured by OFB. While the overall design was DRDOs, the OFB was responsible for the sourcing of stuff like the propellant, and the production.

The OFB contracted for propellant from a Russian manufacturer in bulk & it was this which leaked. This because a) the rounds in question did not have adequate packaging to prevent leakage - heavy packaging in turns means the rounds get bulky and would not fit into the T-72 breech b) The propellant was not designed for the temperatures we face in India c) The Army, lacking any temperature conditioned facilities for its rounds, has many of its rounds are stored outside in either open lots (with tents) or in facilities, where as is typical in North India, the mercury really shoots up.

Coming back to the event, the leakage of propellant meant that a portion of the rounds were deemed unserviceable, segregated - with one portion to be re manufactured, the rest destroyed.

Meanwhile, the Army had also ordered several thousand rounds of Israeli 125mm FSAPDS rounds as a Kargil top up for the T-72.
On evaluating these against the earlier local MK1 rounds, the Israeli rounds had better performance as they had been developed later. The Israelis promised TOT as well. So the Army suggested that these be license manufactured with TOT. The Army though this was an easy solution to the quality issue with the OFB rounds and now all would be well. They suggested this to the MOD, and that was that.

So the MOD stopped the production of the DRDO penetrators at HAPP, had OFB production of the entire MK1 round shifted to the ostensible production of the Israeli 125mm rounds & these were to be be the future mainstay of the Army. In reality, this has not been ideal. There have been production issues with even these rounds, and the rate has not been slow and not upto meeting IA requirements for topping up its reserves.

The penetrator blanks are supplied by IMI, machined by OFB, and then assembled into rounds. The Israeli designation for this round is the CL3254M. Indian Army publicly refers to it as AMK-340A.

So the Army had stocks slowly built up of these rounds but which were also used up in live fire exercises and the like. We are now informed that the MOD considers this IMI deal and several others negotiated during the period, to have been tainted with corruption.

Meanwhile, citing the acquisition of the T-80 UD by Pakistan, the Army then purchased the T-90S. This induction too was conducted in a hamfisted manner, with several crucial steps including QA of systems such as the Thermal sight etc missing. We are paying for those today.

The T-90 tanks came with the BM-42 round (projectile assembly BM-17). The Army calls this round the AMK-339. The Russians arm twisted the Army and refused to provide the source codes for the ballistic computer on the T-90S, for India to use the AMK-340A/IMI rounds. As a result of which these tanks continue to use the BM-42.

Future T-90S built in India may be able to use Indian or Israeli rounds because the MOD asked DRDO/TATA to develop a 1:1 replacement for the original Russian Ballistic Computer, using the experience gained with developing the Arjun Ballistic Computer - both hardware and software. You'd have seen the pictures of it displayed at the recent Defexpo.

Basically, till this makes its appearance on local tanks and is retrofitted to Russian supplied kit/ tanks, we are limited to the BM-42. This round itself is just about sufficient for todays needs and is not cutting edge. Its functional, thats about it. This round can however be used for both T-72 and T-90s, and we are to order 66,000 of them after ordering some 10,000 earlier.

The blacklisting of IMI means that our supply of AMK-340A has now stopped and we are now clearly dependent on Russia for these older AMK-339s.

The Army solution to the possible issues with AMK-339 keeping pace with more heavily armoured Pakistani/Chinese tanks which may appear in the future, is to purchase huge stocks of INVAR UBK-20 missiles. Equipped with a tandem warhead, the hope is these will still allow us to defeat enemy armor.

Meanwhile, the one good news is that DRDO, despite having no firm GSQR to develop a MK2 version of their round, were stubborn and went ahead and sanctioned an own project to develop one anyhow. The Army demurred and was initially not interested.

Finally, sense seems to have prevailed, and they started taking an interest in the project after the first tranche of rounds were developed and the MOD approached them to have trials.

The first 30 odd rounds were put through AUCRT, improvements suggested, improved rounds developed, and 500 rounds were then cleared for further tests sometime last year. This MK2 round development, once finalized, now offers us the capability to restart our own 125mm FSAPDS line and move away from limited value license manufacture.

The performance of these rounds will be at the very least equal or better to the AMK-340As, which in turn were a bit better than those of the AMK-339 based on public, published information

The situation is pretty similar to how DRDO's BMCS has come as a possible solution for the Nalanda project. Bi Modular Charge Systems (think charges which can be loaded sequentially into a gun to get the range required) which were to be used with our upgraded 130 mm guns and the existing Bofors. The project went nowhere, facilities remained empty, and ultimately IMI got blacklisted. Now the local BMCS is in trials, if it passes, the entire complex will be fitted out on our own for series/volume production.

Anyhow, that is where the situation is today. FSAPDS manufacture for instance remains pretty tricky, even apart from design & development, and making our own penetrators end to end is important. Not just assembling rounds like several countries do, with the core penetrator being provided by others. The ARDE MK2 could be a possible solution, provided OFB/HAPP can handle the complexity.

any one who can tell me about AMK 339, AMK 340 A, AMK 340 mk II about there characteristics and comparison and regarding the challenges India is facing in manufacture of APFSDS ....pls I am working on a project....

 

[sasi]

Are we still buying guided artillery rounds from russia?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No artillery rounds but Guided missile for tanks ..

Are we still buying guided artillery rounds from russia?

 

[sasi]

No artillery rounds but Guided missile for tanks ..

kunal sir, i am asking abt trajectory correcting rounds.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No. We are not importing such rounds ..

kunal sir, i am asking abt trajectory correcting rounds.

 

[JBH22]

kunal sir, i am asking abt trajectory correcting rounds.

We bought some krasnapol laser guided artillery rounds but it failed miserably afterwords.

Though Kargil war enabled the acquisition of the BM-30 Smerch, death on its enemies

 

[Saber]

thanks for the info this would help..........