Indian T-90S a sub-standard tank ?

[methos]

Regarding the T-90MS:

I think we should try to look at the size of the weak spot and the advantages of the T-90MS. The weakened roof surface is how large? It looks pretty small. And does Pakistan (or China) have ammunition which does pierce through highly sloped armour? If so, how probable is it?

The T-90MS has better side and front armour than the T-90S (it has a new weak spot, but fixed the weak mantlet protection) and the Arjun. The Arjun also lacks roof protection. It also stores less ammunition in the crew compartment.
The gun and fire control system are superior to that of the current T-90S and Arjun.
Also the mobility was improved amongst others by installing a new engine.

So the T-90MS has a lot of advantages and fixed old problems, but got a (probably not significant) new weak spot.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

First things first. T-90MS is still a demonstrator, it only shows what can be done with T-90A and T-90S.

As for turret roof, there was just a good reason to do it that way, space inside, but it does not mean it can't be later corrected, it can.

It depends what is more cost effective solution. IMHO for India the best way would be to build new tanks as T-90MS but with turret roof design corrected, and

this can be noted to UVZ so they slightly redesign turret. And older T-90S should be later upgraded with T-90MS components like ERA, APU, sights etc.

@Damian,

Your Idea is good, But as long as there are no concrete proof about such turret i only see Original T-90S is better in deign aspects and upgrading them with few components needed and required and cheaper..

India is still importing K5 era, better option i see is to get RELIKT ERA and with Russian expertise it can be mounted on 700 T-90S in India, Indian Army already planed to have APU same on MS..

 

[Damian]

@Kunal

As I said, current T-90MS is still only a technology demonstrator, with big enough pile of money You can have what You want, everything depends on customer needs and how deep pocket it have. That's all.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding the T-90MS:

I think we should try to look at the size of the weak spot and the advantages of the T-90MS. The weakened roof surface is how large? It looks pretty small. And does Pakistan (or China) have ammunition which does pierce through highly sloped armour? If so, how probable is it?

The T-90MS has better side and front armour than the T-90S (it has a new weak spot, but fixed the weak mantlet protection) and the Arjun. The Arjun also lacks roof protection. It also stores less ammunition in the crew compartment.
The gun and fire control system are superior to that of the current T-90S and Arjun.
Also the mobility was improved amongst others by installing a new engine.

So the T-90MS has a lot of advantages and fixed old problems, but got a (probably not significant) new weak spot.

Its not small, You can make a 6 year old boy sit in those unprotected places in turret ( From Personal XP ), It is roof and have thin RHA plate, RPG-7 is good enough..

T-90MS employ ERA bricks there which can be done over T-90S, T-90S in India have better protected frontal Armour as it have no Shotra ECM suit there, Instead a K5 era tile, Mantal is more or less same, Arjun and Leo2A4 dont have such deign problems like on T-90MS and Chinese tanks..

Mobility is same, Bigger weight need bigger engines to keep up, Arjun have a 1400hp and will be updated with a 1500hp, Ground pressure is also low..



T-90MS is over all a makeover of T-90S but with additional flaws..

 

[Damian]

Its not small, You can make a 6 year old boy sit in those unprotected places in turret ( From Personal XP ), It is roof and have thin RHA plate, RPG-7 is good enough..

It depends on range, from very close range it can be big, but from mid to long range it can be insignificant.

Mobility is same, Bigger weight need bigger engines to keep up, Arjun have a 1400hp and will be updated with a 1500hp, Ground pressure is also low..

Standard T-90A and T-90S weight 45-47 tons, T-90MS weight 48 tons as official statements says. So if we belive them, increase in weight is minimal, and thus vehicle with stronger engine have also better mobility.

 

[p2prada]

Pics i took at Expo, Shows there are places which dont even have ERA at roof..

Learn from Damian ..

I am aware and as I mentioned it was first posted by Andrei.

What is the probability of these parts being hit? That is the question you need to ask. Or else there are many other portions in the front which has no armour.

I remember asking the same question when Damian mentioned there are more weak spots under the turret of the T-90.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It depends on range, from very close range it can be big, but from mid to long range it can be insignificant.
.

True, But the partial cover of thin roof by ERA at frontal Armour is not a solution..

One have to work on to make it rectified which is by many a mutual view on the subject & same goes for Arjun with sights..

This is Arjun from mid - long range shots while moving..

 

[p2prada]

T-90MS is over all a makeover of T-90S but with additional flaws..

It is not "flaws" but flaw. That flaw is worthless.

There is ERA all over the place. It is much better protected than the T-90 and even more so than the Arjun.

 

[p2prada]

This is Arjun from mid - long range shots while moving..

You don't know whether the tank was moving or not. It is only a picture of the target and the 2 penetrations are more than 3m off the ground, no tank is that high.

One thing is for sure, the board is not moving at all, let alone moving cross country on uneven ground and firing back at the same time. Gunners won't take their own sweet time to aim and fire in such a situation. Think realistically.

 

[sayareakd]

You don't know whether the tank was moving or not. It is only a picture of the target and the 2 penetrations are more than 3m off the ground, no tank is that high.

One thing is for sure, the board is not moving at all, let alone moving cross country on uneven ground and firing back at the same time. Gunners won't take their own sweet time to aim and fire in such a situation. Think realistically.

that was the tank short taken by the Sardarji on the left side for the first time on arjun tank and he aimed it perfectly that is why he is posing for the picture and that is standard Army practice target for tank.

 

[p2prada]

Then please provide such information when making an unverifiable comment.

@sayare

That's the point. It is a practice target, not a real, moving and aggressive target.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

E-Mail Ajai Shukla
on [email protected]

 

[p2prada]

E-Mail Ajai Shukla
on [email protected]

Haha! broadswordbs@gmail.com

BlogSpot or Business Standard but it is funny.

Even Broadsword can be reduced to bs. So, [email protected]

Damn. Today is a good day for trolling.

 

[san]

At present condition, buying T90MS is out of equation till Antony wants to sacrifice his political carrier and make himself available to target for corruption practice. Army wants ammo & artillery rather than tanks. Also domestic alternative is available. New revelation of corruption on ARV is coming in VK Singh's interview.
Future purchases also depend on Pakishtan's new acquisition of modern tanks from Chinese and name it AK 2/3"¦ etc. With Chinese starts copying American's uniforms to humvess, the future AK will be more or less western heavy tank concept rather than Russian T series.
But still there will be every effort to buy whatever available and increase swiss bank account.

 

[san]

You don't know whether the tank was moving or not. It is only a picture of the target and the 2 penetrations are more than 3m off the ground, no tank is that high.

One thing is for sure, the board is not moving at all, let alone moving cross country on uneven ground and firing back at the same time. Gunners won't take their own sweet time to aim and fire in such a situation. Think realistically.

Army has standard rule and criteria while taking practice shot. It is irrespective of the type of tank.

 

[kaustav2001]

I think, there's a prototype of t-90 MS that has ERA on the roof as well, not sure why they always choose to display the prototype they displayed @ DEFEXPO....(the one with gaps in the ERA tiles on top) -

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think, there's a prototype of t-90 MS that has ERA on the roof as well, not sure why they always choose to display the prototype they displayed @ DEFEXPO....(the one with gaps in the ERA tiles on top) -

Its the same model, from lower angle it looks covered

Have a look from lower angle:>>

It looks its covered, But if you give close inspection from above its not what it seems..


From Top>>

The roof inclined forward is thin RHA plate and its partially covered with ERA..



T-90MS turret degin and T-90S Turret degin:

 

[p2prada]

Army has standard rule and criteria while taking practice shot. It is irrespective of the type of tank.

You are digressing. Kunal was of the opinion that the weak spots on T-90 can be specifically aimed and shot at and tried proving that by providing pictures of hits 3m off the ground on a static target. I pointed out the T-90 would be moving real fast and shooting back at the same time. The Arjun's gunner won't have all the time in the world to shoot at such a small target and guarantee a hit. At the same time there is a fear of being hit, which does not exist in practice runs. Thus the so called "flaw" on T-90 may not be something we need to worry about.

On the other hand, the Arjun has a massive mantlet and an equally massive thermal sight.

At present condition, buying T90MS is out of equation till Antony wants to sacrifice his political carrier and make himself available to target for corruption practice. Army wants ammo & artillery rather than tanks. Also domestic alternative is available. New revelation of corruption on ARV is coming in VK Singh's interview.
Future purchases also depend on Pakishtan's new acquisition of modern tanks from Chinese and name it AK 2/3"¦ etc. With Chinese starts copying American's uniforms to humvess, the future AK will be more or less western heavy tank concept rather than Russian T series.
But still there will be every effort to buy whatever available and increase swiss bank account.

Buying the Arjun is tantamount of corruption as it could not clear Army trials. Quite the same as how VK Singh pointed out that he was offered a bribe of 14Crores to certify faulty trucks,

There is no doubt in the Parliament that the T-90 is the better tank. Or else do you really believe the opposition would have kept quiet? If DRDO is developing a product the Army wants, then the Army cannot place orders for a foreign system of the same type. For eg: The Air force cannot order Erieye's when we are developing an AEW&C of our own. Similarly, the air force cannot order more S-300s or PAC-3s without getting clearance from DRDO because DRDO is developing an equivalent ABM system of our own. The only time the Armed forces can buy something from outside is when DRDO fails at delivering and allows import of the specific system. This happened in 2003-2004, after Kaveri failed and DRDO allowed the import of MRCA. This happened after Arjun tests too, when Arjun failed and DRDO allowed the Army to buy T-90s from Russia instead. That's how the world works.

In an armed forces, there is room only for one type of tank. It is not like air force which can buy multiple aircraft and still sustain a logistics chain.

Keep all that Swiss bank comments to yourself.

 

[Damian]

First of did anyone of You ever saw a tank that is even ~1,000m far from You, and seen it through main sights of tank?

Typical main sights have 3x wide zoom and 10-12x narrow zoom for precise aiming.

Belive me, at such distance You are not capable to precisely aim at tanks weak zones.

Here is a screenshot from SB Pro simulator (used by many armies, among them Polish Army), as You can see, crosshair is not pointed at some specific weak zones, but is aimed at target center mass.






First two screens show M1A1HA main sight, range is visible below sights crosshair, last screen shows image from Leopard 2A4 sight, range is 940m.

As far as I know, only Americans replaced the old FCS and sights with new ones, where max zoom is 3x, 6x, 13x, 25x and 50x allowing for precise aiming and target finding and identification over long ranges.

And there is also such factor as ammunition dispertion.

So as it is immposible on typical combat ranges to precisely aim at weak zones, it is more an issue of probability that these weak zones will be hit. So in the end yes, minimalization or even complete elimination of weak zones to decrease of eliminate probability that this weak zone will be hit and tank damaged or disabled is important factor.

 

[sayareakd]

First of did anyone of You ever saw a tank that is even ~1,000m far from You, and seen it through main sights of tank?

Typical main sights have 3x wide zoom and 10-12x narrow zoom for precise aiming.

Belive me, at such distance You are not capable to precisely aim at tanks weak zones.

Here is a screenshot from SB Pro simulator (used by many armies, among them Polish Army), as You can see, crosshair is not pointed at some specific weak zones, but is aimed at target center mass.






First two screens show M1A1HA main sight, range is visible below sights crosshair, last screen shows image from Leopard 2A4 sight, range is 940m.

As far as I know, only Americans replaced the old FCS and sights with new ones, where max zoom is 3x, 6x, 13x, 25x and 50x allowing for precise aiming and target finding and identification over long ranges.

And there is also such factor as ammunition dispertion.

So as it is immposible on typical combat ranges to precisely aim at weak zones, it is more an issue of probability that these weak zones will be hit. So in the end yes, minimalization or even complete elimination of weak zones to decrease of eliminate probability that this weak zone will be hit and tank damaged or disabled is important factor.

try using this.