Indian Special Forces (archived)

[ppgj]

Same old bastard,incompetent & corrupt police .. ha ha

we deserve what we get.think we should have respect with our police.if they are under equipped or under trained,it is not their fault.

 

[bengalraider]

Midget subs for the IN

Does the In needs midget subs ?why don't we mordenize existing subs to give them a special ops role?Will the subs be Indian or foreign? if foreign which one could it be this is a thread for the discussion of the pros and cons of midget subs and the type the IN could eventually buy.

Indian Navy to procure five midget submarines
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Share Print E-mail Comment[ - ] Text [ + ]STAFF WRITER 9:55 HRS IST
New Delhi, Nov 1 (PTI) To strengthen its capabilities of carrying out special underwater operations in high seas and enemy harbours, the Indian Navy is planning to procure five midget submarines for the Marine Commandos (MARCOS).

Submarines weighing less than 150 tonnes are classified as midgets and are used by the Navies to carry out underwater covert operations and surveillance missions.

The Navy has already initiated the process of procuring these vessels and recently issued a Request for Proposal to Indian shipyards including Hindustan Shipyards Limited, ABG and Pipavav shipyards, Defence Ministry sources told PTI here.

Initially, Navy is planning to get only five of these vessels but the inductions can be doubled later on.

The induction of these midgets is part of the Navy's efforts to strengthen its operational capabilities after the 26/11 terror strikes in Mumbai last year, sources said.

 

[p2prada]

It is quite useful for penetrating enemy defenses. Can be used to smuggle weapons and money. Get spies in and out of a country. Get special ops into enemy harbours.

The Japanese used it in Pearl harbour and sank a ship during the attack.

These subs carry 1 or 2 people, some carry upto 7.

 

[bengalraider]

The united states uses the Los Angeles class for insertion of special forces , why do we not modify the next batch of arihants to do that job instead of buying midget subs?

The Los Angeles class submarine is an attack submarine equipped for anti-submarine warfare, intelligence gathering, show-of-force missions, insertion of special forces, strike missions, mining and search and rescue.

Source:SSN Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine - Naval Technology

 

[ppgj]

The united states uses the Los Angeles class for insertion of special forces , why do we not modify the next batch of arihants to do that job instead of buying midget subs?

my guess is-

1. that the midget subs being small can be launched from our ships(delhi class) at sea.

2. that the bigger submarines will have a bigger RCS.

3. since they engage in sabotage missions, smaller midget subs(with a handful of marcos) are better in evading the enemy and in being successful in their missions.

 

[sandeepdg]

No other country other than Iranians use them. Iran has around 7 home made Ghadir class midget submarines of similar weight, i.e. 120-150 tons. They claim to have capability to fire torpedoes and missiles although its not sure about the exact nature of these weapons but it's good for special ops, ELINT and mine-laying and is said to have stealth features to evade sonar. They even made a baby sub, more like a submersible. Check out the video..

LiveLeak.com - Onboard an IRGC Ghadir coastal special operations submarine

 

[bengalraider]

No other country other than Iranians use them. Iran has around 7 home made Ghadir class midget submarines of similar weight, i.e. 120-150 tons. They claim to have capability to fire torpedoes and missiles although its not sure about the exact nature of these weapons but it's good for special ops, ELINT and mine-laying and is said to have stealth features to evade sonar. They even made a baby sub, more like a submersible. Check out the video..

Exactly what i was talking about if no other country but the Iranians use them why are we jumping on the boat ?Why not use the money to develop an Indian SSN with the capabilities of the Los Angeles?

 

[jackprince]

Exactly what i was talking about if no other country but the Iranians use them why are we jumping on the boat ?Why not use the money to develop an Indian SSN with the capabilities of the Los Angeles?

Yes, no other country uses the midget subs. But may be we should look into it from different angle. It's combat value is not in how many weapons it carries, but what it carries. I think we might agree that the probable combat scenario has shifted largely from battle on the sea to battle inside enemy territory like Pakistan in form of probable covert operations to destabilize the terrorist organisations Pakistan has been nurturing. We already know that C-130J has been ordered keeping the covert ops support in mind, even though they were expensive but suits the need just fine. The midget subs, if as stealthy as advertised can carry our MARCOS team in for a quicky job inside Karachi and out with far little chance of interception than if they would have to cross border via land routes. The MARCOS are already trained for such ops. They operate and train with Cosmos CE-2F/X100 two-man submarines.

Some may argue why not use other SSN to insert ops team like US. But then the subs will have to go far too close to enemy territory to insert the team and retrieve them, and have to wait for quite a good time in the danger zone when they could be detected and fired upon by enemy surveillance, since a full size sub will have quite big RCS. How many country do you think would dare sink an US sub even if they detect it, and how would Pakistan Navy would react if it detects Indian sub? The midget sub will also risk detection, but then it's stealthier and in a cold sort of logic it would carry only two or few people in exchange of a full submarine crew. Also, do you think India can spare or risk a SSN for a deep commando-style attack? I think THAT would be a waste.

 

[StealthSniper]

These midget subs can also be used for recovery and rescue missions right? It would come in handy just in case a submarine is damaged you can get the crew out if they are underwater.

 

[K Factor]

India should go in for this kind of dual purpose stuff.

Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This can act as a vehicle for Spec Ops insertions in hostile waters, as well as deep sea rescue in case of submarine accidents like the Kursk tragedy.

 

[StealthSniper]

That makes sense Kommu, so their are two different kind of small submarines for different operations. One is a Midget sub for covert missions, and the other is a DSRV for rescue missions.


By the way do we have any DSRV in our inventory right now? Because I remember Russia had to use an American one to try to rescue the crew for the Kursk submarine. I thought that was a little embarassing.

 

[sandeepdg]

That makes sense Kommu, so their are two different kind of small submarines for different operations. One is a Midget sub for covert missions, and the other is a DSRV for rescue missions.
By the way do we have any DSRV in our inventory right now? Because I remember Russia had to use an American one to try to rescue the crew for the Kursk submarine. I thought that was a little embarassing.

We don't have any submersibles in the naval inventory. The National Institute of Oceanography has developed the Autonomous Underwater vehicle (AUV) for oceanic research. The DRDO is said to be developing something in this regard, though credible is known as of now.

 

[Atul]

The Spiggen II Class (midget submarine)

Displacements
Spiggen II: 12 tonnes surfaced, 14 tonnes submerged

:dfi-1:

 

[bengalraider]

I see no torpedo tubes or other weapon mountings, is the spiggen class only intended to be used as a SF insertion boat? that said it looks good !

 

[Rahul Singh]

Timing is very important. IN is about to get SSBN, and there is no time left to waste to get DSRV. So in my opinion, IN is exploring an option to by a midget-SUB which can double up as a DSRV.

 

[bengalraider]

Timing is very important. IN is about to get SSBN, and there is no time left to waste to get DSRV. So in my opinion, IN is exploring an option to by a midget-SUB which can double up as a DSRV.

au contraire mi compadre! it is much more necessary for the IN to get DSRV's now that we operate SSBN's. i think the best option would be to get the design blueprints for the India class submarine modernize it(maybe fit it with a reactor) and use it both as a DSRV mother ship and a SF insertion vessel.

An artist's concept of a Soviet India class rescue submarine deploying a deep submergence rescue vehicle (DSRV), foreground, and a Soviet November class fleet submarine being assisted by a DSRV while stranded on an underwater shelf.

Project 940 "Lenok"
India class
Equipped with two deep submergence rescue vehicles (DSRV), the India class submarine was designed to locate submarines in distress and to rescue the distressed submarines crew. The India was fitted with medical facilities and decompression chambers that allow the submarine to treat several dozen individuals at a time. The DSRVs can dive to 500-1,000 meters and rescue crews by docking with the escape hatch of a submarine. India class submarines could also be used in salvage operations.

Lazurit designed the Poseidon class DSRVs used by the Russian Navy. Four operational and one experimental models were built. The DSRVs operate in pairs, generally carried onboard an India class submarine. They are capable of launch and recovery while the submarine is submerged. The normal navy procedure is for the crew of a downed submarine to escape by locking out at depths down to 120 m. Beyond this depth, to a maximum of 500 m, the DSRVs are used. The vehicles can carry twenty-four passengers and a crew of three.

Both units are no longer be operational, having been placed in reserve around 1990 and scrapped in 1995.

 

[StealthSniper]

Something Interesting I found:


MIDGET Submarines

 

[RAM]

Force One Commando Unit of Mumbai

Force One commandos set to guard Mumbai

MUMBAI: Nearly a year after 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, the city gets its first batch of Force One commandos, an elite force formed on the lines of National Security Guards (NSG) for the state security. "The city would have its own elite force, as the first batch of the Force One has been trained and soon they will become operational," Additional Chief Secretary (Home) Chandra Iyengar said.

Over 1,600 young policemen from the state had expressed their willingness to join the Force and were given rigorous training by Israeli and German trainers, Iyengar said. The State Government has alloted land at Goregaon in western suburbs to the Force for training and easy access in emergency situation, she said.

The Home Department has also focused on upgradation of police force, coastal security, strengthening Intelligence and participation of local people in security. Police Department has been provided with new weapons, vehicles and technologies, which would make them alert in case of any emergency situation, Iyengar said."Police personnel have been trained in such a way that they respond to any situation," she said. The information would first go to the local police station and then a Quick Response Team (QRT) would deal with the situation and later, Force One would take charge.

The QRT is trained in such a way that it would reach a place within 20 minutes. It has also been provided bullet proof jackets and armed vehicles, Iyengar said. For the coastal security, the Government has provided high speed boats for patrolling and 'Sagar Suraksha Dal', a group of local fishermen, has been formed to collect information.

"The fishermen have been provided mobile phones and SIM cards to keep coastal security and police updated if they notice something suspicious," she said, adding, about 40,000 fishermen have received identity cards from the Government.

The Intelligence structure has been streamlined and strengthened with recruitment of new people and giving them training, she said.

The department will soon submit a report on the work done to beef up security, a year after the terror attacks, to Chief Minister Ashok Chavan.

"Lot of work has been done in the year and we are compiling the report to submit it to the chief minister. We would also make it public, as people should know what the department has done," she said

Force One commandos set to guard Mumbai - Mumbai - City - The Times of India

 

[sandeepdg]

Something Interesting I found:


MIDGET Submarines

Great, now even the Pakis are building midget subs !! They are hell bent on acquiring anything that can counter a similar Indian acquisition it seems.

 

[K Factor]

That makes sense Kommu, so their are two different kind of small submarines for different operations. One is a Midget sub for covert missions, and the other is a DSRV for rescue missions.

By the way do we have any DSRV in our inventory right now? Because I remember Russia had to use an American one to try to rescue the crew for the Kursk submarine. I thought that was a little embarassing.

DSRV can do both covert spec-ops insertions as well as deep sea rescue, but they are usually unarmed. We can try to built one, which could be armed in case of requirement.

Greater diving depth (requisite of DSRV) means it can evade enemy subs/ASW airplanes simply by diving deep in case of conflict.