Indian Special Forces (archived)

[Tuco]

RR interview by Major Gaurav Arya. This is the new one, has some training clips.

 

[Vishal reddy]

This is IAF Garud Commandos!!
STAR 21 with Nimrod 6*40 sight with glock 19 sidearm!!

This is GTAR 21 with Arsenal 40mm under barrel grenade launcher and MOR red dot sight and Glock 17 sidearm!!

 

[operatorgrumby]

Is this 5.56 or the 7.62 NG7 variant

This is the 5.56 NATO Variant.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

This is IAF Garud Commandos!!
STAR 21 with Nimrod 6*40 sight with glock 19 sidearm!!
View attachment 49586View attachment 49587
This is GTAR 21 with Arsenal 40mm under barrel grenade launcher and MOR red dot sight and Glock 17 sidearm!! View attachment 49588

Bro all posted before. Please avoid reposts. Read the whole thread from starting you will learn a lot.

 

[operatorgrumby]

So as we all know our SF modernization is going kind of meh (slow)...i have just out of curiosity made this about making our SF guys more modern and better equiped overall.

So here the list goes,

1.COMBAT OVERALL

So now there are a few comapny who started taking inputs from SF Operators about making these Tactical Combat Shirts and Pants more user friendly and usable as we know from a previous thread here.

I don't know but these Ranger Green Combat Apparel looks damn cool, however this have a little to no usability in our condition.

Or everyone's Favourite Multicam:-

Mind you these are Crye G3 All Weather Combat overall ( the Gucciest Gucci stuff out there ), so don't think the GOI gonna buy them anyway...But there are many cheaper options built like these.

2.PLATE-CARRIER

There are many local comapnies which make good quality plate-carriers (MKU, SMPP etc).


This one is a Crye Precission JPC (Jumpable Plate Carrier)

3.TACTICAL BOOTS

The newer one needs to be rugged yet lightweight, that will make the operator's life easier while climbing a steep mountain.

These are the MERRELL Tactical boots prefered by the US SOF Soldier.

4.HELMET

These are MKU HCBHs in Black.

5.PRIMARY WEAPON

As we all wishes to see our Operators with a modern AR-15 based rifle with all the necessary attachments , we also know that there's still some time for this becoming a reallity.

Something like this;

H&K isn't a possibilty though,

Still in couple of years we maybe getting those SCARs, which also can be a very good option though,

This is the SCAR-L

This is the SCAR-H DMR/BR Variant

Or if any local manufacturer ( SSS ) starts developing an AR-15 based Rifle of their own,if i dare to say that...
Something like this Mk18 poissibly,

6.SIDEARM

We already have combat proven Glock-17,19s and a plethora of various good sidearm in our arsenal so no need to bother here,

7.NODs

Everybody wants these Quad Tubes (BNVD-P) from Tonbo;

If they aren't possible, or let's say they are too expensive for the MOD then atleast those Dual tube NODs from Tonbo or any other manufacturer

8.POUCHES & ACCESSORIES

A good three mag pouch with retention system so mag don't fall off.

A duty belt with Sidearm Holster, Pistol & Primary Weapon mag holder with retention system and IFAK.

And various other Carrier set-up items like Hand Grenade Pouch, Radio Pouch, Other accessories Pouch, Rucksack as well.

9.EAR PROTECTION

Either the not so expensive $700 Peltor Comtac III Tactical Communicatin Headset

Or the $1500 king of Tactical Headsets "THE OPS CORE AMP"

These Headsets require a Push-To-talk (PTT) device in order to connect with the radio,

Somethinng like this,

10.RADIO

As the DRDO recently made those SDRs successfully,in a few months they will start to come into the individual operators hand. They will/must have the support to attach Ear Pro to them with a Push-To-Talk system as well (let's hope so)

In picture the Harris L3Harris Falcon III® AN/PRC-152A Wideband Networking Handheld Radio

11.TACTICAL GLOVES

Tactical Gloves with knuckle protection & safety from fire as well.

Jeez...That was fun.

 

[Commando 01]

So as we all know our SF modernization is going kind of meh (slow)...i have just out of curiosity made this about making our SF guys more modern and better equiped overall.

So here the list goes,

1.COMBAT OVERALL

So now there are a few comapny who started taking inputs from SF Operators about making these Tactical Combat Shirts and Pants more user friendly and usable as we know from a previous thread here.

I don't know but these Ranger Green Combat Apparel looks damn cool, however this have a little to no usability in our condition.

Or everyone's Favourite Multicam:-

Mind you these are Crye G3 All Weather Combat overall ( the Gucciest Gucci stuff out there ), so don't think the GOI gonna buy them anyway...But there are many cheaper options built like these.

2.PLATE-CARRIER

There are many local comapnies which make good quality plate-carriers (MKU, SMPP etc).


This one is a Crye Precission JPC (Jumpable Plate Carrier)

3.TACTICAL BOOTS

The newer one needs to be rugged yet lightweight, that will make the operator's life easier while climbing a steep mountain.

These are the MERRELL Tactical boots prefered by the US SOF Soldier.

4.HELMET

These are MKU HCBHs in Black.

5.PRIMARY WEAPON

As we all wishes to see our Operators with a modern AR-15 based rifle with all the necessary attachments , we also know that there's still some time for this becoming a reallity.

Something like this;

H&K isn't a possibilty though,

Still in couple of years we maybe getting those SCARs, which also can be a very good option though,

This is the SCAR-L

This is the SCAR-H DMR/BR Variant

Or if any local manufacturer ( SSS ) starts developing an AR-15 based Rifle of their own,if i dare to say that...
Something like this Mk18 poissibly,

6.SIDEARM

We already have combat proven Glock-17,19s and a plethora of various good sidearm in our arsenal so no need to bother here,

7.NODs

Everybody wants these Quad Tubes (BNVD-P) from Tonbo;

View attachment 49593


If they aren't possible, or let's say they are too expensive for the MOD then atleast those Dual tube NODs from Tonbo or any other manufacturer

View attachment 49594


8.POUCHES & ACCESSORIES

A good three mag pouch with retention system so mag don't fall off.

A duty belt with Sidearm Holster, Pistol & Primary Weapon mag holder with retention system and IFAK.


View attachment 49595


And various other Carrier set-up items like Hand Grenade Pouch, Radio Pouch, Other accessories Pouch, Rucksack as well.

9.EAR PROTECTION

Either the not so expensive $700 Peltor Comtac III Tactical Communicatin Headset

Or the $1500 king of Tactical Headsets "THE OPS CORE AMP"

These Headsets require a Push-To-talk (PTT) device in order to connect with the radio,

Somethinng like this,

10.RADIO

As the DRDO recently made those SDRs successfully,in a few months they will start to come into the individual operators hand. They will/must have the support to attach Ear Pro to them with a Push-To-Talk system as well (let's hope so)

In picture the Harris L3Harris Falcon III® AN/PRC-152A Wideband Networking Handheld Radio



View attachment 49596



11.TACTICAL GLOVES

Tactical Gloves with knuckle protection & safety from fire as well.

Jeez...That was fun.

That all will surely increase the effectiveness but I think Tavor is doing a fine job as primary weapon for our special forces, no need to switch unnecessarily towards AR-15s it's having no extra joy over Tavor in quality, reliability and performance.

 

[rkhanna]

That all will surely increase the effectiveness but I think Tavor is doing a fine job as primary weapon for our special forces, no need to switch unnecessarily towards AR-15s it's having no extra joy over Tavor in quality, reliability and performance.

Fair but as an oberservation all the armies jn thr wrold who use bullpups - Brits, Israelis, french, Austrian all use Conventional designs for their SOF

Also the TARs we use have themselves evolved in Israel. Despite the great strides and plus points of the rifle, They are unbalanced and butt heavy, Slower bag change, and harder to shoot around corners / harder to manipulate the gun around corners + issues wjth ambidextrous operations .

The M4 is getting more and more prevalent within Indian SF for a reason - but I must admit opinion is plot

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

wtf is that plate carrier? Seems like what infantry are issued. Sometimes these guys have the new MOLLE “high speed” kind and then others they have this kind of junk.

Yeah this BPJ.

 

[Yodha]

Fair but as an oberservation all the armies jn thr wrold who use bullpups - Brits, Israelis, french, Austrian all use Conventional designs for their SOF

Also the TARs we use have themselves evolved in Israel. Despite the great strides and plus points of the rifle, They are unbalanced and butt heavy, Slower bag change, and harder to shoot around corners / harder to manipulate the gun around corners + issues wjth ambidextrous operations .

The M4 is getting more and more prevalent within Indian SF for a reason - but I must admit opinion is plot.

One.

Tavor is not butt heavy, may be when you hold it with one hand. But it is balanced when you take a shooting stance.

Two.

Slower mag change. No. An operator will always adapt to his rifle. I have seen operators changing mags on Tavor without a flinch or taking eyes off the target.

Three.

Not difficult to use around corners. I have practiced it and believe me, with a canted sight(if available) it eliminates the need for an operator to come out and expose himself from a covering position more than an AK or AR. Been there, done that. It's surprising to point out ambidextrous usage because, you guys vote for AK in CI/CT ops which is nothing but metal and the charging handle fixed to the breach block. FML.

Four.

I'm adding some more to it. It has got excellent compatibility with sights and once zeroed, you can hit a fig. 11 target on the white "chindi" at night with a night scope. Double tap is easily manageable.


Of course, using the Holding/Opening device lever is cumbersome. You have to cock it and use the other hand to operate it.

Outburst of gas when OEM manufactured ammunition is not used. I mean to say, Israeli made ammunition is always recommended.

M4 quite contrarily lacks in all of the above except accuracy and adaptability to mounts and sights.

 

[Mangal]

One.

Tavor is not butt heavy, may be when you hold it with one hand. But it is balanced when you take a shooting stance.

Two.

Slower mag change. No. An operator will always adapt to his rifle. I have seen operators changing mags on Tavor without a flinch or taking eyes off the target.

Three.

Not difficult to use around corners. I have practiced it and believe me, with a canted sight(if available) it eliminates the need for an operator to come out and expose himself from a covering position more than an AK or AR. Been there, done that. It's surprising to point out ambidextrous usage because, you guys vote for AK in CI/CT ops which is nothing but metal and the charging handle fixed to the breach block. FML.

Four.

I'm adding some more to it. It has got excellent compatibility with sights and once zeroed, you can hit a fig. 11 target on the white "chindi" at night with a night scope. Double tap is easily manageable.


Of course, using the Holding/Opening device lever is cumbersome. You have to cock it and use the other hand to operate it.

Outburst of gas when OEM manufactured ammunition is not used. I mean to say, Israeli made ammunition is always recommended.

M4 quite contrarily lacks in all of the above except accuracy and adaptability to mounts and sights.

But recently SOF units seem to prefer M4. Why is that?

 

[Yodha]

All that gear and excitement.... I would like you to ask questions and I'd get them answered by an SF guy. May be all of those questions in a single page or post would help it.

Apart from that, I'm surprised that everyone is talking about gear and training but the main challenge is mitigating the excessive PROLIFERATION of SF by raising special units to counter terrorists. It should be Infantry. Period.

When you have something in excessive quantity, it loses its importance. That's what is happening with the SF units. The Airborne units we regard as special are with airforce in PLA. Just think about it. Using an Airborne unit for Cordons in Valley. It's just outright "stupé".

I believe (only thing I can do), limit the units, give them funds (of course at the cost of other units), make them assemble under a single command. Place them all over India with more focus on vital/important areas. Dedicated air assets and pilots(to be trained with the SF personnel, to make the aviators understand, in what way they should support them in Ops). And limit the media coverage. Baaki training, running and ragda toh kaafi hai.

 

[Yodha]

W

But recently SOF units seem to prefer M4. Why is that?

See their history, generations of operators using the same rifle and evolving it with their experience. Even those units won't take long barrel AR to clear a house. Why do SAS still uses MP5 for a CQB? Even the French use MP5 and its variants.

What we had? AK
What we bought? Tavor
What we fancy? AR

As I said, it's outright stupidity.

 

[Commando 01]

But recently SOF units seem to prefer M4. Why is that?

I think using M4 SOPMODs dosent mean that Tavors are having some issue. They are using it cos it's also an excellent primary weapon and are available in adequate quantity. So both can be used for the job. Still you will find Tavors in majority.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

All that gear and excitement.... I would like you to ask questions and I'd get them answered by an SF guy. May be all of those questions in a single page or post would help it.

Apart from that, I'm surprised that everyone is talking about gear and training but the main challenge is mitigating the excessive PROLIFERATION of SF by raising special units to counter terrorists. It should be Infantry. Period.

When you have something in excessive quantity, it loses its importance. That's what is happening with the SF units. The Airborne units we regard as special are with airforce in PLA. Just think about it. Using an Airborne unit for Cordons in Valley. It's just outright "stupé".

I believe (only thing I can do), limit the units, give them funds (of course at the cost of other units), make them assemble under a single command. Place them all over India with more focus on vital/important areas. Dedicated air assets and pilots(to be trained with the SF personnel, to make the aviators understand, in what way they should support them in Ops). And limit the media coverage. Baaki training, running and ragda toh kaafi hai.

So who do you think should raise this issue?

Do watch Lt General Hooda's interview about surgical strike and he says that the CO of both 9 and 4 protested when he asked them to send over their teams for surgical strike type of ops training?

 

[Yodha]

So who do you think should raise this issue?

Do watch Lt General Hooda's interview about surgical strike and he says that the CO of both 9 and 4 protested when he asked them to send over their teams for surgical strike type of ops training?

Then the COs are either stupid or geniuses in their own minds. I believe they had reasons, but it doesn't mean that they won't do it.

Added this part later:

May be the time to plan and train was less. Remember, the demand was a quick action in limited time. I believe they were right to PROTEST(not deny). You can't plot the mission on a map and cut the fence and cross the border. Training saves lives and hands you a memorable victory.

 

[Tuco]

So who do you think should raise this issue?

Do watch Lt General Hooda's interview about surgical strike and he says that the CO of both 9 and 4 protested when he asked them to send over their teams for surgical strike type of ops training?

AFSOD will handle any future such operations right?

 

[Yodha]

AFSOD will handle any future such operations right?

Those kind of Ops are to be at the bottom in the list. Strategical Ops are priority. Do you know how many times infantry crossed the border and killed and captured enemy posts. SF in other places of world had many tasks way above killing terrorists. Can we employ them in Baluchistan and embedd them with loyal forces fighting there?

Having a special force comes in two parts. Trained personnel and leadership to take brave and important decisions. It's not so special if you don't use it for something really special.

 

[rkhanna]

One.

Tavor is not butt heavy, may be when you hold it with one hand. But it is balanced when you take a shooting stance.

Two.

Slower mag change. No. An operator will always adapt to his rifle. I have seen operators changing mags on Tavor without a flinch or taking eyes off the target.

Three.

Not difficult to use around corners. I have practiced it and believe me, with a canted sight(if available) it eliminates the need for an operator to come out and expose himself from a covering position more than an AK or AR. Been there, done that. It's surprising to point out ambidextrous usage because, you guys vote for AK in CI/CT ops which is nothing but metal and the charging handle fixed to the breach block. FML.

Four.

I'm adding some more to it. It has got excellent compatibility with sights and once zeroed, you can hit a fig. 11 target on the white "chindi" at night with a night scope. Double tap is easily manageable.


Of course, using the Holding/Opening device lever is cumbersome. You have to cock it and use the other hand to operate it.

Outburst of gas when OEM manufactured ammunition is not used. I mean to say, Israeli made ammunition is always recommended.

M4 quite contrarily lacks in all of the above except accuracy and adaptability to mounts and sights.

First off. Welcome, first time i am interacting with you.

On the Tavor - My filters are based on conversation with current Indian Army users, reading feedback from Israeli Military users and from Civilian Shooters (some ex mil) in Canada and the United States

1. the Tavor does get unbalanced a bit. You will notice that the barrel in single hand will tend to point up. Yes ofcourse when in shooting stance there is no problem
2. Assume operator skill and adapting to rifle being same. a conventional rifle will always enact a faster mag change vs a Bullpup

[Both issues were specifically addressed by the Israelis in the Tar2]

3. Shooting corners in a dynamic kill house may not allow for Canted Sights. but a conventional weapon is far easier to manouver / manipulate in cramped space/tight corners - You can put the butt of the gun under the armpit and extend and contract. While tiling and shooting the Mag in the Tavor ends up biting into your side. - real world shooters feedback

4. i donot like the AK in most senarios other than supression fire. but thats just me.

The TAVOR is a Grade A rifle - easily Top 5 Assault rifle in the world. Between a 10-13"in HK416 and TAVOR which would you pick. As rifles they are equal to the task. For operator efficiency the HK has a slight edge.

(my 2 paisa only)

Apart from that, I'm surprised that everyone is talking about gear and training but the main challenge is mitigating the excessive PROLIFERATION of SF by raising special units to counter terrorists. It should be Infantry. Period.

Been saying this for a while. If Ghatak is trained, equipped an empowered fitting their task - SF can be freed for their Critical Mission Stature and you dont need a 10k+ soldiers.

But that being said SOF evolution is a bit outside the grain of Infantry - their tasking, organization, strategy and C&C+Orbat need to be thought of as a Separate Capability

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Then the COs are either stupid or geniuses in their own minds. I believe they had reasons, but it doesn't mean that they won't do it.

Added this part later:

May be the time to plan and train was less. Remember, the demand was a quick action in limited time. I believe they were right to PROTEST(not deny). You can't plot the mission on a map and cut the fence and cross the border. Training saves lives and hands you a memorable victory.

The demand was made a year ago after SS in the East.The requirement was for training initially and not op.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

AFSOD will handle any future such operations right?

Hope so.

............,.....