Indian nuclear submarines

[sayareakd]

I am ok with it, French has already allowed classified info on Scorpenei sub to fall into others hand, they need to pay for damages, in the form of allowing all the subs to add nuclear reactors to it.

They being bringing in model for the same over the years in Defexpo.

Now they want to throw in additional nuclear reactor for Barracuda for next sub tender. I am all for it.

 

[DjoFanMk1]

So our SSBNs use HUE reactors while it is increasingly looking that our SSNs will be using LEU reactors. What other country does this? And can any of you learned members here tell me which is the better of the two reactors when you consider everything (ease or difficultly of enrichment, amount of waste generated, operational duration both kinds of fuel provide before refuelling is needed, ease or difficulty of disposal, security needed as in fuel falling into wrong hands etc)?

 

[Chinmoy]

So our SSBNs use HUE reactors while it is increasingly looking that our SSNs will be using LEU reactors. What other country does this? And can any of you learned members here tell me which is the better of the two reactors when you consider everything (ease or difficultly of enrichment, amount of waste generated, operational duration both kinds of fuel provide before refuelling is needed, ease or difficulty of disposal, security needed as in fuel falling into wrong hands etc)?

When we talk about usage of HEU, it is basically used in high performance job like weapon and reactors along with space based application.
LEU or SEU are mostly used in reactors.

Now in case of a submarine, HEU is more suitable for reactor on basis of waste generation and ratio of yield. But HEU takes time for enrichment and because of that it is hard to come by for refueling.

 

[Prashant12]

Nuclear sub INS Aridhaman ready for hush-hush launch anytime soon

VISAKHAPATNAM: INS Aridhaman, the second Arihant-class nuclear powered submarine that is being built by the Navy at the Ship Building Centre at Visakhapatnam, is reportedly set for a soft launch next week according to well-placed sources in the defence ministry.

The nuclear submarine was initially scheduled for a grand launch at the hands of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, but sources said a change of decision has happened with authorities at the highest level now deciding to launch the vessel in a quiet manner at the hands of defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman.

The vessel is being built under the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project at the SBC in the port city. While the launch of the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, the Navy's first indigenous nuclear submarine, was a high-profile affair with former prime minister Manmohan Singh inaugurating it, the launch of INS Aridhaman is expected to be a closed-door affair, sources said. INS Arihant was launched by then PM Manmohan Singh in September, 2009. Singh's wife Gursharan Kaur had formally launched the vessel according to the tradition of the Indian Navy which dictates that a woman should inaugurate a vessel. Exactly eight years after that, a woman defence minister is now expected to launch INS Aridhaman at the Ship Building Centre in Eastern Naval command (ENC), probably on November 19 or 20, sources said.

Sources said INS Aridhaman would be bigger than Arihant and would be more lethal in all aspects. "It would have double the number of missile hatches than its predecessor. It can carry more missiles and also will have a more powerful reactor," Navy sources said.

The submarine will have eight launch tubes in its hump and will have the capability to carry long-range missiles of more than 3,000 km. After launch, the vessel would undergo extensive fitting before being readied for harbour trials and sea trials in the next two years. Once it is confirmed ready for operations, it will be commissioned by 2020, Navy sources said. INS Arihant was commissioned in October last year in a hush-hush manner though it was launched in 2009.

The launch of the Aridhaman will bolster the Navy's nuclear capabilities along with the existing INS Arihant, and will take the country's military a big step closer to its professed goal of a credible nuclear triad. A sea-based deterrent will provide the military a secure underwater platform to launch nuclear missiles, and will complete the toughest of the three legs of the nuclear triad.


The Navy right now has only about 13 conventional submarines, with only half of them operational at any given time because at least 10 submarines are over 25 years old.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-launch-anytime-soon/articleshow/61685157.cms

 

[Willy2]

Why Admiral Sunil Lanba’s visit to a French nuclear shipyard is significant

India has closely followed the development of France’s new attack submarine for over a decade owing to its potential to transform the navy’s submarine arm.


On November 9, Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba visited Cherbourg and was given a detailed presentation on France’s new nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN), the Barracuda class. The first of these six French SSNs is to join the French navy next year.

Admiral Lanba’s visit to the French nuclear submarine builders at Cherbourg will be closely watched for several reasons.

The government-owned Naval Group (earlier called DCNS) is France’s largest warship manufacturer. It is also building six Scorpenes for the Indian navy at the Mazagon Docks Ltd Mumbai under a 2005 contract and is also in the reckoning for the Project 75I submarine building project.

The navy chief’s visit comes at a time when India is on the cusp of an unprecedented expansion of its undersea fleet. It is looking to build three types of submarines, one conventional and two nuclear, in three separate projects. These projects, roughly worth more than $28 billion dollars, are spread over the next decade.
A yet-to-be decided tie up of a foreign shipyard and Indian private sector company is to build six Project 75I conventional diesel-electric submarines for the navy at a $8 billion pricetag. The classified Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project steered by the DRDO, navy and the BARC, is also designing six 6000-ton SSNs like the Barracuda class under a $18 billion project cleared in 2015. A new generation SSBN replacement for the Arihant class costing more than $1.5 billion, is also on the drawing board.

A Scorpene-class submarine. Photo: Wikimedia Commons

The Barracuda, naval analysts say, holds out hope for the navy to integrate all three diverse projects for the SSK, SSN and SSBN. The reactor, in particular, could be a game-changer because the navy is believed to be looking for a new one to power both its SSNs and new generation SSBNs.

India’s interest in the Barracuda dates back to 2007 when a delegation of senior Indian Navy personnel were briefed on the capabilities of the boat, then on the drawing board. The Barracuda-class SSNs were meant to be a quantum jump in France’s nuclear submarine capabilities. They were designed for maximum operational availability — nearly 265 days of the year — and to undertake two distant patrols a year into the Indian Ocean, sailing around the Cape of Good Hope. It was the closest then that the Indian navy had come to western nuclear naval reactor technology, particularly the use of Low Enriched Uranium (LEU) in French naval propulsion reactors. Of the six nuclear submarine operating countries, only France and China use LEU in their naval propulsion reactors. India, like the US, UK and Russia, uses Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU), enriched to a very high in their nuclear submarine reactors.

Naval reactors are at the very heart of a nuclear submarine’s phenomenal capabilities. The unlimited power from a nuclear reactor to run a submarine’s steam turbines which, in turn, runs the vesssel’s propellers, allows a submarine to carry out its operational tasks — that is attacking surface ships and land targets in the case of SSNs and SSGNs or lurking silently under the sea with a load of nuclear-tipped missiles like ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs).

Miniaturising a nuclear powered reactor to fit within the confined space of a submarine is what makes nuclear submarine construction so challenging. And this is where France’s achievements in this field are commendable — its 2,400-ton Rubis class were the world’s smallest nuclear powered attack submarines when they were fielded in the early 1980s, compacting a reactor into a hull slightly larger than the Indian navy’s kilo class diesel-electric conventional submarines.

India’s fleet of Arihant class SSBNs uses reactor technology of an earlier generation constrained by enrichment, fuelling and consequently, mission readiness of the platform.

The Indian naval delegation were impressed by the Barracuda because they asked DCNS if France would be willing to help India with reactor technology. The French response was not surprising — the issue would have to be considered at the political level. Back in India, the naval delegation prepared a classified report on the need for the navy to consider French LEU naval propulsion reactors. The report also emphasised the need to establish commonality between its nuclear and conventional submarine lines. This would not only reduce build-times but also standardise spare parts and maintenance for a diverse fleet. It is not known whether the government acted on these proposals.

If it acted on establishing commonality among the various submarines, it would be in line with curent thinking both in the US and Russia. Russia’s "Project Husky" nuclear powered nuclear submarines are believed to be only around 6,000 tonnes, half the displacement of its Akula and Severodvinsk class SSNs, and reportedly form the basis for a new class of SSN, SSGN and SSBNs. The US Navy’s Virginia class SSNs can be converted into SSGNs and are also the basis for the new Columbia class SSBNs.

There is currently no explicit ban on the sale of naval propulsion reactors between the P5 nations and non-nuclear weapon states, but this has not been done so far.

France is currently helping Brazil manufacture four Scorpene class conventional submarines under a 2009 contract. Interestingly, France’s Naval Group will also manufacture ‘non-nuclear portions’ (the reactor section), of Brazil’s first nuclear submarine.

India, meanwhile, is faced with increasing undersea threats in the neighborhood: the routine deployments of Chinese submarines — both nuclear and conventional — in its backyard, the sale of eight Chinese Yuan-class submarines to Pakistan and the increasing frailty of India’s ageing submarine fleet.

French assisstance in building both nuclear and conventional submarines would boost India’s strategic submarine programmes and, possibly, even become a talking point when PM Modi welcomes president Macron to New Delhi early next year.
https://www.dailyo.in/politics/admi...ubmarine-scorpene-shipyard/story/1/20543.html

@IndianHawk @Willy2 @roma @Krusty @Defcon 1 @Ghanteshwar @raheel besharam @raja696 @Amr @AnkitPurohit @Akshay_Fenix @aditya10r @airtel @aditya10r @ancientIndian @Bahamut @Berkut @Bornubus @Bengal_Tiger @ersakthivel @FRYCRY @Gessler @HariSud @hit&run @hardip @indiandefencefan @IndianHawk @JayPatel @Kshatriya87 @LETHALFORCE @Mikesingh @NavneetKundu @OneGrimPilgrim @pmaitra @PaliwalWarrior @Pulkit @smestarz @SakalGhareluUstad @Srinivas_K @ShashankSharma @Superdefender @Screambowl @TacticalFrog @Abhijat @A chauhan @Alien @alphacentury @Ancient Indian @Ankit Purohit @anupamsurey @armyofhind @Bharat Ek Khoj @Bhumihar @blueblood @brational @Bangalorean @Blackwater @Bornubus @bose @Bullet @cobra commando @DingDong @DFI_COAS @dhananjay1 @ersakthivel @F-14B @fooLIam @gpawar @guru-dutt @here2where @hit&run @HariPrasad-1 @Indx TechStyle @Kshatriya87 @jackprince @Kharavela @Illusive @I_PLAY_BAD @LETHALFORCE @Lions Of Punjab @maomao @Mad Indian @OneGrimPilgrim @Peter @piKacHHu @Pinky Chaudhary @porky_kicker @Razor @raja696 @Rowdy @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @SanjeevM @saty @sydsnyper @Srinivas_K @Screambowl @sorcerer @Simple_Guy @Sylex21 @wickedone @tarunraju @TrueSpirit2 @thethinker @Tshering22 @vayuu1 @VIP @Vishwarupa @VIP @Varahamihira @Navnit Kundu @WARREN SS @Willy2 @3deffect

+ planting story of US official in INS chakra , French are now desperate

 

[Kalki_2018]

Aridaman must already be in service. No way they will announce the precise date or time.

 

[Tactical Frog]

+ planting story of US official in INS chakra , French are now desperate

No way ! The Russians planted the story that the French planted a story

Desperate for what actually ?

Maybe Admiral Lanba had a secret agenda while visiting Cherbourg. Time will tell

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

Maybe he is looking at a nuclear Scorpene for SSN?

 

[Kalki_2018]

Nope. SSN will be with Russian help and capable of firing Brahmos-NG.

 

[Screambowl]

So our SSBNs use HUE reactors while it is increasingly looking that our SSNs will be using LEU reactors. What other country does this? And can any of you learned members here tell me which is the better of the two reactors when you consider everything (ease or difficultly of enrichment, amount of waste generated, operational duration both kinds of fuel provide before refuelling is needed, ease or difficulty of disposal, security needed as in fuel falling into wrong hands etc)?

The operational cost matters.. right from enrichment to reactor getting live.
LEU are cheap and more easy to control in the core with less risk. In any case min 6-7 years no change in fuel

 

[Willy2]

No way ! The Russians planted the story that the French planted a story

Desperate for what actually ?

Maybe Admiral Lanba had a secret agenda while visiting Cherbourg. Time will tell

Selling Barracuda....Like Australian Navy deal.

 

[Prashant12]

Process has started on the Indian SSN nuclear submarine program - Navy Chief.


Big news. Adm Lanba on 6 indigenous SSNs. "It has kicked off...it's 1 of classified projects...process has started."

 

[lcafanboy]

French Barracuda project’s utility to India
India can look to France for design and technologies to make low-enriched uranium cores for its nuclear submarines

India might look to make its nuclear submarines future-proof by adopting LEU reactors. Photo: Reuters
Yusuf Unjhawala
On his recent visit to France, India’s chief of naval staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, was given a detailed presentation by his French hosts on the Barracuda-class, its latest nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN), the first of which is expected to be commissioned next year into the French navy. This assumes importance for a number of reasons. India plans to make six SSNs apart from nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), the first of which—INS Arihant—is operational and the next in class, INS Aridhaman, has been launched recently. India is also looking to make conventional diesel-electric submarines (SSKs) under project P75I after the current programme to make six French Scorpène submarines, being constructed at Mazagon Docks.

This is where the potential of exploring the Barracuda lies. The French are developing two versions of the Barracuda—nuclear-powered for its navy and diesel electric for Australia, after winning a $50 billion contract for 12 boats named Shortfin Barracuda. As India is looking to make both conventional and nuclear attack submarines, the design commonality offered by the Barracuda will help keep construction, operational, maintenance and training costs low.

The Barracuda is designed with pump-jet propulsion instead of the conventional propeller, which will make the submarine quieter than propeller-driven ones. The pump-jet-propelled submarines are also faster and easily manoeuvrable. The conventional version of the Barracuda will have a vertical launch system to launch cruise missiles, a requirement for India’s P75I.

What is, however, more interesting is that India has asked France if it will be willing to help with the nuclear reactor technology. The French appear to be inclined. There is no law prohibiting cooperation on naval nuclear reactors (NNRs) which allowed India to lease the Russian Akula class nuclear attack submarine which is currently in operation with the Indian Navy.

If India is indeed seriously looking at the French NNR, it will mark a move from the highly enriched uranium (HEU) core that powers the Arihant-class SSBN to the low-enriched uranium (LEU) core that powers the French nuclear submarines. India uses 40% HEU while France uses 5-7% LEU for its Rubis-class SSN, Triomphant-class SSBN and aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.




The reactor on INS Arihant produces about 83MW of power to propel the over 6,000-tonne submarine. However, a more powerful reactor will be required for future SSBNs, which will be substantially larger than the Arihant. The French K-15 reactor produces 150MW that propels the 12,000-tonne Triomphant-class submarine with 16 vertical launch tubes to launch the M51 submarine-launched ballistic missiles, similar to what India plans in boats succeeding the Arihant. The reactor on the Barracuda will be based on K-15, with suitable power adjustments.

Incidentally, India is also considering the use of nuclear propulsion for its future aircraft carriers. However, it is unlikely that the next one to be constructed will have nuclear propulsion considering the lack of an adequately powered nuclear reactor that is sufficiently miniaturized. France uses two K-15 reactors on its aircraft carrier.

India’s consideration of a shift to LEU reactors may be influenced by disarmament negotiations. The Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT) particularly aims to ban production of HEU, which is uranium with over 20% enrichment, to stop nuclear weapons proliferation. India is committed to negotiate the treaty which has been stalled for the moment by Pakistan’s veto. If the FMCT comes into effect, it will prohibit the production of HEU that is used in India’s NNR, affecting its strategic requirements.

While the treaty doesn’t appear to be coming into force anytime soon, India might be looking to make its nuclear submarines future-proof by adopting LEU reactors. The adoption of LEU will save India the cost of expanding its HEU production facilities and leave the current stockpile and production capacity for making nuclear weapons to ensure minimum credible deterrence till the FMCT comes into force. The US, which uses a HEU core, has been mulling a shift to LEU to further its non-proliferation goals although it has sufficient stockpile of HEU for its navy.

The use of LEU has its challenges, especially the larger size of the core. France has been successful in sufficiently miniaturizing the LEU core. While the 93% HEU cores of US and UK submarines don’t require refuelling, LEU cores need to be refuelled at least twice in their lifetime. France has developed a fuel mix that gives a reasonably long core life of 7-10 years before refuelling. In fact, INS Arihant will also need refuelling in a process that will require cutting open the submarine hull and welding it back after refuelling. The process will take two to three years, affecting the availability of a critical strategic asset. France, on the other hand, uses secure hatches above the reactor which allows refuelling to take place in a matter of weeks, leading to greater availability.

France is India’s strategic partner and is regarded as a reliable supplier of weapons. India can look to France to provide consultancy on both conventional and nuclear attack submarines derived from the Barracuda project and acquire design and technologies to make LEU cores for its nuclear submarines. A sufficiently well-powered LEU core can also propel India’s future aircraft carriers.

Yusuf Unjhawala is the editor of Defence Forum India and a commentator on defence and strategic affairs.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.li...mp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=googleamp

Barracuda SSN coming to India definitely. Rafales, Rafale NG, Barracuda SSN, & nuclear power aircraft carriers all are coming through strategic partnership with France. People having doubts about Rafale deal will eat their words. Apart from these Snecma Kaveri engines too will materialize and so would potent LCA Mk1A with French upgrade.

Dassault has already told its vendors to establish plants in Nagpur for Rafale & Falcon jet manufacturing. There's also a Buzz of Airbus moving to India. All these will set up world class aviation industry.

 

[Willy2]

If India is indeed seriously looking at the French NNR, it will mark a move from the highly enriched uranium (HEU) core that powers the Arihant-class SSBN to the low-enriched uranium (LEU) core that powers the French nuclear submarines. India uses 40% HEU while France uses 5-7% LEU for its Rubis-class SSN, Triomphant-class SSBN and aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

India’s consideration of a shift to LEU reactors may be influenced by disarmament negotiations. The Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT) particularly aims to ban production of HEU, which is uranium with over 20% enrichment, to stop nuclear weapons proliferation. India is committed to negotiate the treaty which has been stalled for the moment by Pakistan’s veto. If the FMCT comes into effect, it will prohibit the production of HEU that is used in India’s NNR, affecting its strategic requirements.

SO is it end of Plutonium bombs ? or we can too enrich plutonium from LEU reactors ? Considering Pakis veto the decision might mean that it really a benchmark treaty towards nuclear proliferation

 

[Willy2]

Repeat post................................................

 

[Prashant12]

India launches project to make six nuclear submarines: Navy chief

Faced with a belligerent China, India has launched its project to build six more nuclear-powered submarines. The nuclear power will allow them greater endurance under sea as the submarines need not surface to ‘breathe’.

Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, while replying to a question, said on Friday, “We have launched the project to make six SSNs (nuclear-powered submarines) and I will not say any further as it’s a classified project.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...six-nuclear-submarines-navy-chief/506490.html

 

[darshan978]

India launches project to make six nuclear submarines: Navy chief

Faced with a belligerent China, India has launched its project to build six more nuclear-powered submarines. The nuclear power will allow them greater endurance under sea as the submarines need not surface to ‘breathe’.

Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, while replying to a question, said on Friday, “We have launched the project to make six SSNs (nuclear-powered submarines) and I will not say any further as it’s a classified project.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...six-nuclear-submarines-navy-chief/506490.html

So no foreign help? Baracuda gone?

 

[aditya10r]

What the bloody fuck.

Only 24 subs over next 30 years.

http://idrw.org/navy-chief-admits-damage-to-ins-chakra/

Navy chief admits damage to INS Chakra Published December 2, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: Ajai Shukla | Business-standard.com For the first time, the navy has confirmed that INS Vishal, its second indigenous aircraft carrier that will be built in the 2020s, will be a conventionally-powered vessel, not a nuclear powered warship, as earlier envisaged. Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba told a press conference on Friday the navy is going in for a “65,000-tonne, two-deck, CATOBAR (catapult take off but arrested landing), conventionally powered” carrier. It would incorporate the latest “EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) and AAG (advanced arrester gear)” developed by US firm General Atomics for launching and recovering aircraft. The chief of naval staff (CNS) also confirmed the navy’s ongoing acquisition of 57 multi-role carrier-borne fighters (MRCBF) was meant for both indigenous aircraft carriers — INS Vikrant, which would be commissioned in end-2020, and INS Vishal which would take another decade. With the Naval Tejas fighter unsuitable for deployment, the MRCBF procurement is regarded as essential by the navy, said Lanba. Providing an update on the MRCBF procurement, Lanba said the navy’s Request for Information (RFI) that had been floated earlier this year had received four responses. Sources say these are from Boeing for its F/A-18E/F, Dassault for the Rafale Marine, Saab for its Gripen Maritime and from Russia for an updated MiG-29K, which the navy is already flying. “We will take the [MRCBF acquisition] process forward. But the middle of next year, we should be able to float the RFP (request for proposals, as the tender is called)”. Submarines The CNS confirmed worrying rumours about underwater damage to INS Chakra (pictured), the nuclear attack submarines that the navy had taken on a 10-year lease from Russia in 2012. “The Chakra has suffered damage to her sonar dome. Two [hull] panels have been dislodged. A Board of Inquiry has been constituted to find out the cause. A joint team of the Indian Navy and the Russian side has assessed the damage. We have ordered the panel at the soonest.” The chief dismissed reports published last month in a Russian newsmagazine that US Navy officials had been permitted to visit the Chakra during their recent visit to India. “No American person has seen the submarine from nearby,” said Lanba tersely. In good news for the navy’s depleted submarine fleet, Lanba revealed that Project 75I — which involves building six conventional attack submarines with “air independent propulsion” (AIP) — has made progress. “We have a 30-year plan for a total force level of 24 submarines. Project 75I is the first project being progressed under the Strategic Partner (SP) model. We have floated an RFI for identifying OEMs (original equipment manufacturers). Responses have been received from four OEMs and they are under examination. A committee has been constituted for identifying the Indian strategic partner. Pressed to identify the four OEMs who have expressed interest in Project 75I, Lanba named German submarine maker, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, French shipmaker Naval Group (formerly DCNS), Kockums of Sweden and Russian armament supplier, Rosoboronexport. Indigenous SSN The navy chief also acknowledged an indigenous project to build six nuclear attack submarines, termed SSNs (the acronym for “sub-surface nuclear”). “It has kicked off and I will leave it at that. It is a classified project. The process has started,” said Lanba. The navy chief also revealed that India and US had “operationalised” an agreement for “reciprocal logistic support”, termed the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA), signed in August 2016. “Our ships are taking fuel from US tankers during anti-piracy patrols [near the Horn of Africa]. This began about three months ago,” he said.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/navy-chief-admits-damage-to-ins-chakra/ .

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Do we have the expertise to achieve the level of silence and stealth that is present in Virginia class or barracuda class? Making a nuclear submarine is not only about miniaturizing the reactor and building a submarine around it. It is about achieving the maximum level of silence possible.

Secondly, there is also the question of different sensors aboard the submarine. Can we make them up to the standard of other modern SSN's?

We shouldn't make the same mistake as the Chinese with their nuclear subs being the loudest in the world, which over other navy sharing the same ocean can track in real time.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Do we have the expertise to achieve the level of silence and stealth that is present in Virginia class or barracuda class? Making a nuclear submarine is not only about miniaturizing the reactor and building a submarine around it. It is about achieving the maximum level of silence possible.

Secondly, there is also the question of different sensors aboard the submarine. Can we make them up to the standard of other modern SSN's?

We shouldn't make the same mistake as the Chinese with their nuclear subs being the loudest in the world, which over other navy sharing the same ocean can track in real time.

*every other

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