Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH)

[p2prada]

(a) The Apaches flew less in Iraq, due to maintenance issues in the desert. There is more wear-n-tare of the rotor blades dues to the sand. Thsi has got nothing to do with the gunship being a failure as a weapon of war.

(b) In the battle of Karbala, the Apaches faced a problem as the Medina Division had saturated the area with small arms fire. There were not just ADA weapons firing but civilians and troops raking the air with rifle fire. The choppers were flying low and got damaged, one had to force land. It was a bad day for the Apache unit that day. Period.

The gunship can hit its target from 6-8 km even before the target can see or hear the choppers.

I am not disputing this. I was just adding to the discussion.

Anyway, yes the Karbala incident was different, perhaps Somalia example comes here. Not a good situation for any helicopter.

Anyway wouldn't the same problem with rotor blades affect performance in our deserts or would the blades be customized for use in particular areas? I already know the blades used in plains have to be different from the ones used in high altitudes. I guess it depends on how and where we want to use it.

 

[Bhadra]

IA, IAF and IN - why does their requirements change so many times and so frequently? Can't they be a lil more professional about it? I heard same for LCA, Arjun etc etc.

Change is the name of game. Development is nothing but a change. Forces are forced to ask for change due to changing environment, threat perception, changes in geographical conditions and changes in doctrines and tactics.

Till yesterday Pakistan was every thing but today China has taken centerstage. Yesterday,Thar was a bad desert but today it is slowly become a Green Revolution and a bread basket / oil belt. Till yesterday, Indians were content with a defensive strategy but they want to be offensive today. How can equipment QRs remain the same??

DRDO does not produce any thing for tens of years and after 20 year wish to stick to QRs given twenty years ago! That is being stupid.

Indian Armed forces are not like that lady sitting under a banana tree waiting for a raw banana to fall !

 

[Sam2012]

The End Product may look closely to MRH-90..

If this project frutifies on time , then this will be game changer for fading HAL fame :thumb:

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

Japs have locally developed Dhruv class birds flying, but Medium Helos are still produced under license.

First, the Seaking was License built by Mitsubishi.

Then SH-60J was License built by Mitsubishi.

Much speculation that looking to license build either AW-101 or NH-90, in future. It appears no local programme exists as of now.

Naval helos (Medium Helos primary application) are not easy to design and build.

Birds like AW-101 and NH-90 have received orders of more than 500 helos between them, with NH-90 leading. Many of the ordering countries make helos themselves.

Some important aspects which are desirable for Naval Helos are (got from reading on internet)

> 4 hours + of mission endurance

> approx. 4 tons payload wt. (Bird wt. about 10 kg)

> Corrosion resistant

> Gearbox type qualified to "Dry run " for 30 minutes before destruction.

( Gearbox Test rigs are as big as the ones to test Gas Turbines)

> Rugged , heavy duty floor and rear ramp to take abuse of many duty cycles.

> Higher power for tropical conditions.

> 20-30 troops / 12 + stretchers capacity..


> Noise and Vibration to be minimized or totally eliminated.

> Plus usual Naval requirements
- hover performance in gusty and gale force winds
- good visibility in storms
- foldable rotors so can fit inside ship's hangers
- provision for equipment like torpedo, ASh Missile, Dunking Sonar, MAD gear, etc.

To achieve above, not so easy.

(Personally, I hate to give excuses for why not happened in India. Not good at all.

I suggest, let 'em boys start the programme with stretched Dhruv platform, this time all metal please, junk the composites, couple of Makila turbines or GE T-700s, local gearbox with design consultancy from Fiat (yes, FIAT. It seems when it comes to heli gearboxes, those dudes from Turin know a thing or two) or some retired American professional engineer, and attempt landing on Naval Ship, with embedded project team from Navy for issues with Sonar and Torpedoes)

See, above is what I've read. Anyone welcome to point out my mistakes and correct me, atleast I will learn about the requirement better. You guys also pls add valuable research and contribution.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

Japs have locally developed Dhruv class birds flying, but Medium Helos are still produced under license.

First, the Seaking was License built by Mitsubishi.

Then SH-60J was License built by Mitsubishi.

Much speculation that looking to license build either AW-101 or NH-90, in future. It appears no local programme exists as of now.

Naval helos (Medium Helos primary application) are not easy to design and build.

Birds like AW-101 and NH-90 have received orders of more than 500 helos between them, with NH-90 leading. Many of the ordering countries make helos themselves.

Some important aspects which are desirable for Naval Helos are (got from reading on internet)

> 4 hours + of mission endurance

> approx. 4 tons payload wt. (Bird wt. about 10 kg)

> Corrosion resistant

> Gearbox type qualified to "Dry run " for 30 minutes before destruction.

( Gearbox Test rigs are as big as the ones to test Gas Turbines)

> Rugged , heavy duty floor and rear ramp to take abuse of many duty cycles.

> Higher power for tropical conditions.

> 20-30 troops / 12 + stretchers capacity..


> Noise and Vibration to be minimized or totally eliminated.

> Plus usual Naval requirements
- hover performance in gusty and gale force winds
- good visibility in storms
- foldable rotors so can fit inside ship's hangers
- provision for equipment like torpedo, ASh Missile, Dunking Sonar, MAD gear, etc.

To achieve above, not so easy.

(Personally, I hate to give excuses for why not happened in India. Not good at all.

I suggest, let 'em boys start the programme with stretched Dhruv platform, this time all metal please, junk the composites, couple of Makila turbines or GE T-700s, local gearbox with design consultancy from Fiat (yes, FIAT. It seems when it comes to heli gearboxes, those dudes from Turin know a thing or two) or some retired American professional engineer, and attempt landing on Naval Ship, with embedded project team from Navy for issues with Sonar and Torpedoes)

See, above is what I've read. Anyone welcome to point out my mistakes and correct me, atleast I will learn about the requirement better. You guys also pls add valuable research and contribution.

Just one question: why do you think that fixation with composites is bad ? Ruggedness? Time, effort & cost over-runs ? anything else ?

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

Just one question: why do you think that fixation with composites is bad ? Ruggedness? Time, effort & cost over-runs ? anything else ?

See, i'm armchair kind of guy, and no practical experience whatsoever.

Just half knowledge gained on internet , and talking about it. So please excuse any mistakes/errors.

Reg Composites:

1. Usually time and cost overruns seen in programmes having lot of composites, from Airbus and Boeing.

2. Composite regions under stress need reinforcement in form of extra material. This not adds more complexity in production, but also negates weight advantage , which is one of the original reasons composite material was chosen in the first place.Maybe metal structure used initially, with gradual composite replacement to reduce weight of parts whose performance is well understood.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

See, i'm armchair kind of guy, and no practical experience whatsoever.

Just half knowledge gained on internet , and talking about it. So please excuse any mistakes/errors.

Reg Composites:

1. Usually time and cost overruns seen in programmes having lot of composites, from Airbus and Boeing.

2. Composite regions under stress need reinforcement in form of extra material. This not adds more complexity in production, but also negates weight advantage , which is one of the original reasons composite material was chosen in the first place.Maybe metal structure used initially, with gradual composite replacement to reduce weight of parts whose performance is well understood.

Yeah, I suspected these very reasons. Your view matches that of @Decklander (you know his credentials, right ?)

He posted somewhere that he could not fathom the recent trend over the past few decades (in aviation) of making an inherently unstable airframe, only to stabilize it later by adding more components.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

About Decklander - He is very knowledgeable gentleman, and I read his posts with great interest.

Composites can have advantage in many cases no doubt. Eg. our ALH Dhruv specs have empty wt. of about 2500kg. Similar class from Bell and Sikorsky are about 3000kg.

Yeah, I suspected these very reasons. Your view matches that of @Decklander (you know his credentials, right ?)

He posted somewhere that he could not fathom the recent trend over the past few decades (in aviation) of making an inherently unstable airframe, only to stabilize it later by adding more components.

 

[Decklander]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

See, i'm armchair kind of guy, and no practical experience whatsoever.

Just half knowledge gained on internet , and talking about it. So please excuse any mistakes/errors.

Reg Composites:

1. Usually time and cost overruns seen in programmes having lot of composites, from Airbus and Boeing.

2. Composite regions under stress need reinforcement in form of extra material. This not adds more complexity in production, but also negates weight advantage , which is one of the original reasons composite material was chosen in the first place.Maybe metal structure used initially, with gradual composite replacement to reduce weight of parts whose performance is well understood.

One of the biggest advantages of composites were the lower weight. This has now been completely offset by Al-Li composites which weigh same as composites but are cheap and easily maleable. The 3d printing tech has also added to reduced weight of components and most composites can't be used today in 3D printing. Metal for metal, a 3D printed component is 5%-7% lighter and in case welding is reqd, the 3D printed componant is not only stronger but also lighter by nearly 10%. Alcoa has perfected the tech for Al-Li alloys and today we can't weld them easily but soon we will have the tech to do so.

The other advantage was lower RF reflection compared to metals. But the problem is that metals can withstand higher tempratures than composites allowing much higher speeds for an aircraft and are thinner while providing excellent electrical conductivity. This aspect is of biggest use when we talk of all weather flying abilities. We all know the problems being faced by F-22/F-35 while flying thru rains and thunderstorms. The electrical lining which needs to be added to composites which do not conduct electricity, adds more weight to the aircraft than what they save.

Americans are known to sell their shit calling it cancer defeating drug and ultimate drug to youthfulness and sexual power. But the truth is far from it. I have done tons of research on these techs for my own stealth design and I can tell you that within five years you will see that composites content in an aircraft will become much lower as Al-Li alloys take over.

Just to tell you guys, the thickness of an Al skin for an aircraft fuselage can be as low as 1.5mm but it rises to 3-6mm to provide same kind of strength when composites are used. I do not wish to share much of my research work here but it shud suffice to say that people in HAL & NAL are completely foxed with what I sent them and their frustration can be gauged from the letters they have written to me.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

Send a proposal to Modi at his email.

One of the biggest advantages of composites were the lower weight. This has now been completely offset by Al-Li composites which weigh same as composites but are cheap and easily maleable. The 3d printing tech has also added to reduced weight of components and most composites can't be used today in 3D printing. Metal for metal, a 3D printed component is 5%-7% lighter and in case welding is reqd, the 3D printed componant is not only stronger but also lighter by nearly 10%. Alcoa has perfected the tech for Al-Li alloys and today we can't weld them easily but soon we will have the tech to do so.

The other advantage was lower RF reflection compared to metals. But the problem is that metals can withstand higher tempratures than composites allowing much higher speeds for an aircraft and are thinner while providing excellent electrical conductivity. This aspect is of biggest use when we talk of all weather flying abilities. We all know the problems being faced by F-22/F-35 while flying thru rains and thunderstorms. The electrical lining which needs to be added to composites which do not conduct electricity, adds more weight to the aircraft than what they save.

Americans are known to sell their shit calling it cancer defeating drug and ultimate drug to youthfulness and sexual power. But the truth is far from it. I have done tons of research on these techs for my own stealth design and I can tell you that within five years you will see that composites content in an aircraft will become much lower as Al-Li alloys take over.

Just to tell you guys, the thickness of an Al skin for an aircraft fuselage can be as low as 1.5mm but it rises to 3-6mm to provide same kind of strength when composites are used. I do not wish to share much of my research work here but it shud suffice to say that people in HAL & NAL are completely foxed with what I sent them and their frustration can be gauged from the letters they have written to me.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

@Decklander

What are good books on Helicopter Design?

One of the biggest advantages of composites were the lower weight. This has now been completely offset by Al-Li composites which weigh same as composites but are cheap and easily maleable. The 3d printing tech has also added to reduced weight of components and most composites can't be used today in 3D printing. Metal for metal, a 3D printed component is 5%-7% lighter and in case welding is reqd, the 3D printed componant is not only stronger but also lighter by nearly 10%. Alcoa has perfected the tech for Al-Li alloys and today we can't weld them easily but soon we will have the tech to do so.

The other advantage was lower RF reflection compared to metals. But the problem is that metals can withstand higher tempratures than composites allowing much higher speeds for an aircraft and are thinner while providing excellent electrical conductivity. This aspect is of biggest use when we talk of all weather flying abilities. We all know the problems being faced by F-22/F-35 while flying thru rains and thunderstorms. The electrical lining which needs to be added to composites which do not conduct electricity, adds more weight to the aircraft than what they save.

Americans are known to sell their shit calling it cancer defeating drug and ultimate drug to youthfulness and sexual power. But the truth is far from it. I have done tons of research on these techs for my own stealth design and I can tell you that within five years you will see that composites content in an aircraft will become much lower as Al-Li alloys take over.

Just to tell you guys, the thickness of an Al skin for an aircraft fuselage can be as low as 1.5mm but it rises to 3-6mm to provide same kind of strength when composites are used. I do not wish to share much of my research work here but it shud suffice to say that people in HAL & NAL are completely foxed with what I sent them and their frustration can be gauged from the letters they have written to me.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Re: Indian Medium Lift Helicoper

One of the biggest advantages of composites were the lower weight. This has now been completely offset by Al-Li composites which weigh same as composites but are cheap and easily maleable. The 3d printing tech has also added to reduced weight of components and most composites can't be used today in 3D printing. Metal for metal, a 3D printed component is 5%-7% lighter and in case welding is reqd, the 3D printed componant is not only stronger but also lighter by nearly 10%. Alcoa has perfected the tech for Al-Li alloys and today we can't weld them easily but soon we will have the tech to do so.

The other advantage was lower RF reflection compared to metals. But the problem is that metals can withstand higher tempratures than composites allowing much higher speeds for an aircraft and are thinner while providing excellent electrical conductivity. This aspect is of biggest use when we talk of all weather flying abilities. We all know the problems being faced by F-22/F-35 while flying thru rains and thunderstorms. The electrical lining which needs to be added to composites which do not conduct electricity, adds more weight to the aircraft than what they save.

Americans are known to sell their shit calling it cancer defeating drug and ultimate drug to youthfulness and sexual power. But the truth is far from it. I have done tons of research on these techs for my own stealth design and I can tell you that within five years you will see that composites content in an aircraft will become much lower as Al-Li alloys take over.

Just to tell you guys, the thickness of an Al skin for an aircraft fuselage can be as low as 1.5mm but it rises to 3-6mm to provide same kind of strength when composites are used. I do not wish to share much of my research work here but it shud suffice to say that people in HAL & NAL are completely foxed with what I sent them and their frustration can be gauged from the letters they have written to me.

Oh, that's really great to hear about your ongoing research :thumb:

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

> The Shakti engine as much power as Seaking Gnome Engines..............also frenchies have Makila with 1700 hp, very similar construction to Dhruv engines.....

> Sea King Gearbox could be reverse engineered - change sumthing to get around IPR
> Fuel tanks and tail rotor possible in-house

> make prototype, atleast get mechanical part moving,,,,,,,,others we can see later...

jus' sayin'

 

[bhramos]

Off Topic
news going around on fb

Please read once ........
Abhmanyu Samal (40 yrs) from Odisha, who made this helicopter. Professionally Abhimanyu is a garage mechanic. Abhimanyu made this helicopter after 2 years of hard work by using the engine of scooter, general pipe, tin. He invests only 40,000 rupees in it and according to him this helicopter has a tank of 5litres and it will fly 120kms per hour.

Please friend share this, so that Abhimanyu will get more scope for making more helicopters by gaining more knowledge from experts .........

source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...91567804.23860.119245311568722&type=1&theater

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Came across this link recently - about Dhruv rejection by Navy and CG.

ALH Dhruv: Navy’s Arjun tank? | Thoughtso's Weblog

> Navy spent 138 crore on Navy Dhruv, before the rejection.........so really can't blame them for non-support of Navy Helo.

> CG has 4 Dhruvs , of which 1 gifted to Maldives, not considering anymore, but need helos.

> Chief Arun Prakash (at time of report) asked for higher power and more endurance (1 h at present, 2-3 h required), Mk-II version (not Mach-II as reported!)

 

[mahesh]

Came across this link recently - about Dhruv rejection by Navy and CG.

ALH Dhruv: Navy's Arjun tank? | Thoughtso's Weblog

> Navy spent 138 crore on Navy Dhruv, before the rejection.........so really can't blame them for non-support of Navy Helo.

> CG has 4 Dhruvs , of which 1 gifted to Maldives, not considering anymore, but need helos.

> Chief Arun Prakash (at time of report) asked for higher power and more endurance (1 h at present, 2-3 h required), Mk-II version (not Mach-II as reported!)

the link is of 2010, but i guess navy have Dhruvs for search and rescue

 

[mahesh]

Duplicate post

 

[debasree]

very sad i think ..its a setback...why hal first survey what the defence force need

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Sir, u r right.....

i think working style in PSU was different, maybe on lines of "First you create indent, then we will release helicopter" type of hoary bureaucracy , where customer requirements and surveys went for a toss..........

Actually, now that u mention it, if customer requirement was captured well before tests, that 138 crore could have been saved.....HAL reputation not the best.......

very sad i think ..its a setback...why hal first survey what the defence force need

 

[W.G.Ewald]

the link is of 2010, but i guess navy have Dhruvs for search and rescue

Aircrafts & Helicopters : Naval Fleet : Indian Navy