Indian Army wants futuristic vehicle for its Armoured corps

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pmaitra

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If it is true, then "Bharat" is heading towards what kind of "Swabhimaan" though...?
Don't know whether this is true. It is just a video uploaded by someone we do not yet know.

If this is "swabhimaan" in any way, it is swabhimaan for copy-pasta.

I like the T-14 Armata. From a technical point of view, I have nothing against it. I just see a smoking gun given the timing of the unveiling of the T-14 Armata, and the timing of the RFI, and the contents (or lack thereof) of the RFI.
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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@Bhadra (maruti) actually its army who is culprit..... They haven't told their requirement for fmbt then how can drdo design a tank without customer requirement for the product.....?
 

tharikiran

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I have a simple question. The user is the Indian army. Then it should know what it needs for Indian terrain and based on its tank fighting doctrine. How can it expect some X,Y ,Z firm to design and develop what is best for Indian army and Indian terrain.Indian soldiers nuances.
 

Bhadra

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@Bhadra (maruti) actually its army who is culprit..... They haven't told their requirement for fmbt then how can drdo design a tank without customer requirement for the product.....?
What is Maruti ? Not understood !!:scared2:

Yes, you have understood it correctly.

That is what any one would be asking CVRDE as to how they have developed the so called FMBT without user requirement ??:crazy:

Now, the DODOs will decide where, how and with which tank their slaves - the Indian Army will fight the battle?:bs:

Will / Should Indian Army allow itself to be brought to that position where a research and development organisation decides the doctrines and tactics for them ? This is putting things upside down.

What are DRDO people afraid of ? Why this "shyapa" about RFI not being good and it lacks details ?:mad2:

Firstly, It is because they are unable to evaluate their own Jugad called FMBT as against the requirement in terms of absence of specifics. It the RFI was to be specific then they would blamed DGMF for letting them down and when there are no specifics, they are again crying that DGMF have let them down !

Secondly, who asked them to develop a tank without user requirement ... If they have developed let them do whatever they want to do with it - sell it to Pakistan !!.

Indian Army has a cut out job and it can not and should not be black mailed time and again in the name of keeping jobs of DODOs, Keeping CVRDE alive, indigenous, make in India - what not and what not. Those are not battle winning factors. These are good slogans but not at the cost of national defence preparedness and national security.:shoot:

To my mind this is all a Machiavellian scheming of DRDO and other labs working on tank technology. How did DRDO allow them to work on it without specifications. Where did they get the funds from? Not taxpayer? Is it for DRDO to decide specifications? No.. CAG must look into it ...:hehe:

As per one of the report, DRDO has already entered into negotiation with foreign firms for engine technology and other tank technologies !!:doh: Why and how without knowing specifications ?

If DRDO can approach foreign firms why not DGMF for a design... Why can't the DRDO give a design and let that be evaluated by a MoD committee ? But I know , they are capable of giving only a Arjun design which will not be accepted at all.

Therefore, my lord, you have a very weak case.:doh:
 

pmaitra

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I thought that is what DRDO is not ! It is supposed to be leading "scientific", a visionary organisation which has certain labs with them for experiments and development. The role and mission of DRDO needs to be read and reread by you again and again.
Ok, so you want DRDO to be a visionary. They did build the Tank-EX. Whatever happened to that?
Secondly, who asked them to develop a tank without user requirement ... If they have developed let them do whatever they want to do with it - sell it to Pakistan !!.
Ok, so DRDO should not be a visionary but wait for the incompetent and ignorant generals to prepare an RFI, that ironically has nothing in it?

Make up your mind.

Bottom line is, no matter what DRDO builds, these spoilt kids running this farce of a DGMF's office will not accept it. No matter how superior a tank is, if it is from DRDO, these people will find some excuse or the other to refuse it. Then they would go to the extent of fudging up the reports of comparative trials.

It appears these is a small bunch of extremely corrupt and elitist officials occupying high ranks in the Army, who have a lot of contempt for anything that is made in India, but will lap up anything inferior as long as it is imported.

The best punishment for these people is to get a bunch of T-90s, remove the DRDO installed ACs, and make these so called "army officers" sit in them in the Thar Desert in the summer.
 
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abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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What is Maruti ? Not understood !!:scared2:

Yes, you have understood it correctly.

That is what any one would be asking CVRDE as to how they have developed the so called FMBT without user requirement ??:crazy:

Now, the DODOs will decide where, how and with which tank their slaves - the Indian Army will fight the battle?:bs:

Will / Should Indian Army allow itself to be brought to that position where a research and development organisation decides the doctrines and tactics for them ? This is putting things upside down.

What are DRDO people afraid of ? Why this "shyapa" about RFI not being good and it lacks details ?:mad2:

Firstly, It is because they are unable to evaluate their own Jugad called FMBT as against the requirement in terms of absence of specifics. It the RFI was to be specific then they would blamed DGMF for letting them down and when there are no specifics, they are again crying that DGMF have let them down !

Secondly, who asked them to develop a tank without user requirement ... If they have developed let them do whatever they want to do with it - sell it to Pakistan !!.

Indian Army has a cut out job and it can not and should not be black mailed time and again in the name of keeping jobs of DODOs, Keeping CVRDE alive, indigenous, make in India - what not and what not. Those are not battle winning factors. These are good slogans but not at the cost of national defence preparedness and national security.:shoot:

To my mind this is all a Machiavellian scheming of DRDO and other labs working on tank technology. How did DRDO allow them to work on it without specifications. Where did they get the funds from? Not taxpayer? Is it for DRDO to decide specifications? No.. CAG must look into it ...:hehe:

As per one of the report, DRDO has already entered into negotiation with foreign firms for engine technology and other tank technologies !!:doh: Why and how without knowing specifications ?

If DRDO can approach foreign firms why not DGMF for a design... Why can't the DRDO give a design and let that be evaluated by a MoD committee ? But I know , they are capable of giving only a Arjun design which will not be accepted at all.

Therefore, my lord, you have a very weak case.:doh:
noob.............. maruti means hanumaan ..... there is a bhadra maruti in maharashtra.....
it was army who wanted drdo to develoa an fmbt of 50 tons but they didnt deciding the requirements...... instead of tellinf requirements this craps moved to frcv....
and dont talk about fighting wars cause arjun is much better than t90.... just imagine a t90 in rajasthan with 45degree temp without ac.... imagine t90 in punjab with high ground pressur..... t90 is nothing but a suicide tanker
 

Khagesh

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@pmaitra,

I agree it is just a tukka/hunch/suspicion, but I don't think Armata is the tank DGMF is looking for.

I am presuming and advocating the presumption, that whatever the DGMF and various General Ranis have said during the FMBT ideation exercise is basically propaganda fed to these idiots by foreigners and have directly lead to this silly FRCV-RFI. And further that the need to have this RFI vague is to be able to pull out comparative trial markings and AUCRT markings, from out of their asses.

Most of the FMBT ideas that these imbeciles have put forth reads like an American kid's science magazine. Most likely you will see Captain America's Tank or if the heat gets too much for the Americans then they will have the same supplied in a modified form through the Israelis, with additional intermediary costs and strategic debilitation. Basically Russians cannot play the game of competitive-bribery, today. Only Americans can and through the Americans the Israelis too. Besides we must not forget that large part of our Indigenous research is actually deeply supported by Russians for Geo-strategic reasons of the Survivalist kind. The Russians need India to succeed as a country. Only then can they hope to remain out of the clutches of the Chinese, in the long term. Russians already know by now that Nukes do not help a country survive. Nukes only help threaten another countries survival and that is it. And besides I do have belief in the Russian capacity for valuing their independence.

Besides I know the CVRDE will easily do the Armata equivalent.

On the other hand the Armata is a regular diesel engine but of significantly bigger size than what people are used to but it has no resemblance to the FMBT wishlist and the FRCV-RFI.

That Bharat-Swabhiman video is by a man also telecasting about Bhootnis/Chudail in Delhi-Cantt. So no worries. I will not be surprised if that is also a part of the western propaganda. Most people who love the West hate the Russians also.



Ok for the more relevant part.-

DGMF and other imbeciles faced a wish projected by the Americans. That the tank should move to “full power in 2.8 seconds” and for that they vehemently espouse the “Gas Turbine Engine” and furthermore “The new tank necessarily needs to espouse hybrid electric vehicle technology”. Notice they want to drive around in a hybrid of a M-1 Abrams and an Formula-1 Maclaren West MP4-30 racing car :D.


I don't expect the DGMF and assorted General Ranis to ever question back, why. I don’t expect the imbeciles to even understand that “full power in 2.8 seconds” is not going to be “full speed in 2.8 seconds” because these imbeciles are working under the ICE and GTE presumptions where there are many other considerations to get full speed out of full power.


For the time being, let us presume that our DGMF are doodh ke dhule and that 2.5 seconds to full power is a valid idea. Now these guys have ideated a GTE in addition to the usual ICE. Actually this GTE and Hybrids, is what set me thinking about the American influence on these guys.


Unfortunately for these .... the GTEs take even more time going to full power. Every kid by now has seen on TV how a F-1 car leaves the F-16 behind in first few hundred meters. Unfortunately the DGMF wants all the power in the first few meters (not even first few hundred meters). Pata nahi kahan bhaag jayega.


While the so called Hybrids, because of the Batteries begin to balloon in weight. For the latest Maclaren West car the MP4-30 the car which weighs around 650 kgs has a 25 kg Lithium Ion Battery Pack and then it has the whole waste heat recovery system from the Turbocharger and the generator unit coupled to the crankshaft to balance the energy recovery and energy supply. Not like this is beyond DRDO. But what for all this complexity and extra weight and debilitating on field maintenance methods. The F-1 car has to do it because they have limitations in the kind of fuels and propulsion they can use. Militaries do not have these limitations. And militaries can develop safe-ing mechanisms. Just to get an idea of how much exactly is the power that a battery pack can provide read this:

http://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/p...ure-of-electric-cars-blazing-fast-speeds.html
Due to the tremendous energy consumed to overcome aerodynamic drag at those speeds, current lithium batteries could only last about 10 minutes before a pit stop, Waters pointed out.
This man John E. Waters designs Battery packs for the industry.

Similarly for comparison a Battery Pack of a Diesel Electric Submarine is about 20% to 25% of its displacement (though with the Lead Acid Batteries that are significantly less powerful than Lithium Batteries). But subs use their internal Diesel engines to power up their batteries.

Most likely what these imbeciles ‘think’ is that they will have the GTE charge the batteries during low power hull-down / turret-down positions. What these imbeciles do not realize is that India does not fight like US. Our DGMF who cannot make up their minds for 20 years will never be able to decide when an armour column will move and when it will hide, given the highly matched armour that the future Khetarpals will face on the western front (Pakis + China). The DGMF for example would never know whether the hulldown position is actually powering up the batteries or if the batteries are already fully powered from an earlier such crouching. What the DGMF also does not realize is that once having fully powered these batteries he will again have to wind down the engine. Most likely saddling him with half the squadron of tanks charging at full engine power while other half winding down their engines :scared2:. So this energy recovery and regenerative braking etc. is suitable for predictable stops/movements/turns like in the Formula one racing or Metro trains. It is mostly a useless fad for the unpredictable behavior of the battlefield esp. in our unique circumstances. Notice DGMF sahib we are not an expeditionary force that uses super duper powerdom to target small helpless countries.


If we handle the problem of “2.8 seconds to full power” then we need to understand that a Tank is not a cheetah that needs to pounce upon its target/prey. On top of that even for evasive actioin this 2.8 second feature is a useless idea. If you are thinking about this small times then most likely you are already targeted and a missile/penetrator, is on its way already. This kind of performance difference is useful in aircrafts (like Mig-21 and Su-7, AFB time differences) where things happen at closer to 750 km per hour. The DGMF would be sitting in his tank at ZERO speed when he thinks he needs 2.8 second to full power.


I think the DRDO solution of energy saving (instead of energy recovery), using two separate engines (1000 hp and 500 hp) is a better idea. This is an additive power supply unlike the Energy Recovery Systems of Hybrid power supplies which will be forced to unwind power at unpredictable moments in real life. All of the squadron of Tanks can up and down the power supply simultaneously.

This also does not kills the Energy Recovery System that can be used whenever available for reasonable times/costs. It also gives us separate engines that can actually be used as spin offs. For example most of the long haul heavy lift trucking centers around 500 hp to 600 hp engines (DRDO and Tatas can easily partner this), which is besides the FICV engine which is also around 500 hp. The 1800 hp X 3 or X4 would be reasonable for smaller coastal vessels (GSL and DRDO can easily partner here). KMGT engine is good for corvettes. The 1000 hp unit would be excellent for our smaller TEL/TELAR needs while the 1800 hp should be sufficient for the larger TELAR needs. The 500/1000/1800 hp units is also going to be great for the electrical power needs of the Indian Navy and an assortment of navies around IOR. The 1500 hp engine upgradable to 1800 hp also matches too closely with the Armata engine. So Armata is not going to get in easily.


As a future the direct conversion of chemical energy to motive power is a better option and in that a relevant idea could be to have one of the two IC engines deploying a diesel+nitromethane combination probably even salted with Hydrazine :D. But seriously propellants and fuels and explosives have had choli-daman ka saath since ages. Perhaps we should be exploiting this chemistry instead of inventing another VCR type electrical engineering oddity.


And perhaps dual engines may actually give better safety too for the tank crew. While a Lithium Ion battery pack is itself a major safety hazard.
 
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pmaitra

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@Khagesh,

There are a few important things you have mentioned.

I agree, any indication of a gas turbine engine does point to the US. Gas turbines are fuel guzzlers, and have a tendency to blow up. It is not known how well they will serve in the hot deserts of Rajasthan. Moreover, we have been struggling with turbine technology with our planes. If we build a tank around a turbine, we will end up having to import engines.

I see your point regarding Israel being a conduit for US hardware being sold to India. A significant portion of Israeli military hardware is actually from technology somehow acquired from within the US. Whether they were stolen by Israel or the US gave it away to them is unclear. We need to be wary of that.

A hybrid diesel-electric system, or in case of the WWI St. Chamond, a gasoline-electric system is not new. The St. Chamond was not a very successful design. It was under-powered, and poorly designed. We have mode progress with Li-ion batteries, and are proposed to be used in modern Japanese submarines. They are, as you correctly pointed out, a chemical hazard.

Regenerative braking is used by BMWs. It is a technology that is available with India. Chittaranjan Locomotive Works actually makes locomotives that have regenerative braking. The only concern, as you correctly stated, is that adding mass to a tank will only increase the weight, and sacrifice the power-to-weight ratio and ground pressure.

An electric motor can provide near instant torque, but to sustain that, the battery pack has to be indeed large.

The biggest hurdle that I see with both a turbine and a hybrid traction is that they are technologically complicated and will require extensive servicing. We need to focus on simplicity. My vote is still with an internal combustion engine, and I wouldn't mind the option of having two engines, each around 800 hp, than have one large engine that is 1600 hp. That way, one 800 hp engine can be used in lighter wheeled or tracked tanks, like in the class of a BMP or MTLB, or even a weasel.

I love the idea of an unmanned and remotely controlled turret. As I said, I admire the pioneering work the Russians have done with the T-14 Armata. This unmanned turret concept was discussed for years. That was when the DGMF could have given the inputs to DRDO. Even DRDO, for their part, could have given this input to the DGMF. Neither did, AFAIK. Now, that the Armata has been unveiled, these people are coming up with an RFI that sound like a weather forecast advising people to take an umbrella along in places where it might rain, without actually telling where it is likely to rain.

Coming to this family of vehicles that the RFI indicates, I am not a fan of trying to achieve too much commonality with parts across vehicles with very different purposes. Look at the F-35 JSF. They added a VTOL capability to the Naval Version, which made the fuselage fat, and compromised its stealth. "Jack of all trades and master of none" solutions are not always a good idea. Yes, they offer economies of scale, since many parts have to be manufactured for different vehicles. Said that, when have our military-nobility ever bothered about economy? They seem to have a fetish for anything that is imported. They could care less about the state of the exchange rate of the Indian Rupee.
 

Bhadra

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@Bhadra (maruti) actually its army who is culprit..... They haven't told their requirement for fmbt then how can drdo design a tank without customer requirement for the product.....?

Bhadra means :

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/
भद्र
(H2) भद्र [p=[URL='http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0745-bhaGguranizcaya.jpg']745[/URL],3][L=148263] mf(/आ)n. blessed , auspicious , fortunate , prosperous , happy 746,1][L=148286] f. N. of various plants (= अनन्ता , अपरिजाता , कृष्णा , जीवन्ती , नीली , रास्ना &c ) L.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148287] f. N. of a metre Col.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148288] f. of the 2nd , 7th and 12th days of the lunar fortnight W.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148289] f. of the 7th movable करण (s.v. ; cf. also 2. भद्रा-करण)
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148290] f. of a form of दुर्गा VP.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148291] f. of a goddess Pan5car.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148292] f. of a Buddhist deity L.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148293] f. of a शक्ति Hcat.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148294] f. of दाक्षायणी in भद्रेश्वर Cat. @
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148295] f. of a विद्या-धरी R.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148296] f. of a सुरा*ङ्गना Sin6ha7s.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148297] f. of a daughter of सुरभि R.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148298] f. of a wife of वसु-देवि Hariv. Pur.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148299] f. of the wife of वैश्रवण MBh.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148300] f. of a daughter of सोम and wife of उतथ्य ib.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148301] f. of a daughter of रौद्राश्व and the अप्सरस् घृताची Hariv.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148302] f. of a काक्षीवती and wife of व्युषिताश्व MBh.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148303] f. of a daughter of मेरु and wife of भद्रा*श्व BhP.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148304] f. of a daughter of श्रुत-कीर्ति and wife of कृष्ण BhP.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148305] f. of various rivers (esp. of one described as rising on the northern summit of मेरु and flowing through उत्तरकुरु into the northern ocean) Pur.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148306] f. the celestial Ganges L.
(H2B) भद्रा[L=148307] f. of a lake Hcat.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148308] n. prosperity , happiness , health , welfare , good fortune (also pl.) RV. &c (भद्रं तस्य or तस्मै , prosperity to him! Pa1n2. 2-3 , 73 ; भद्रं ते or वः often used parenthetically in a sentence = " if you please " , or to fill up a verse ; भद्रम् उपलाह् , happiness to you , O stones! S3a1ntis3. ; भद्रम् with √ कृ and dat. , to grant welfare to , bless RV. )
(H2B) भद्र[L=148309] n. gold L.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148310] n. iron or steel L.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148311] n. kind of Cyperus (= -मुस्त) L.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148312] n. a partic. posture in sitting Cat.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148313] n. a partic. करण L. (cf. f.)
(H2B) भद्र[L=148314] n. a partic. mystic sign AgP.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148315] n. a partic. part of a house Nalac.
(H2B) भद्र[L=148316] n. N. of various सामन्s A1rshBr.

In literature this is how this word is used :

ॐ भद्रं कर्णेभिः शृणुयाम देवाः ।
भद्रं पश्येमाक्षभिर्यजत्राः ।
स्थिरैरङ्गैस्तुष्टुवाग्‍ँसस्तनूभिः ।
व्यशेम देवहितं यदायूः
।Om Bhadram Karnnebhih Shrnnuyaama Devaah |
Bhadram Pashyema-Akssabhir-Yajatraah |
Sthirair-Anggais-Tussttuvaamsas-Tanuubhih |
Vyashema Devahitam Yad-Aayuh |

Meaning:
1:Om, O Devas, May we Hear with our Ears what is Auspicious,
2: May we See with our Eyes what is Auspicious and Adorable,
3: May we be Prayerful (in Life) with Steadiness in our Bodies (and Minds),
4: May we Offer our Lifespan allotted by the Devas (for the Service of God),


So, Bhadra Marauti means auspicious Maruti.. kalyankari..

Vir Bhadra was created by Shiva out of his locks ..to wage a terrible war against Daksha

Bhadra Kaali was alos created by Lord shiva to wage that terrible war..

In Indian traditions - Bhadra kaali is worshipped as goddess of war .. I too do that..

In reverence to Bhadra Kaali .. I adopted that name , in short Bhadra...

Pranaam...
 

Bhadra

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Do Pakis use the imperial scale to please their firangi masters now?
Every thing in the subcontinent somewhere or the other have firangi psyche/ style/ FPS scales .. you will be surprised if your Patwari / Tahsildar and Canal departments still follow FPS. Are not our IAS< IPS< Central Services totally Conolian in administration and attitude ?? Were not we being ruled for 65 years as a colony ? and still are so ..:doh:

Look at the language we use.. is not that Royal Firangi ...:yo:
 

Bhadra

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@ Khagesh....

Bhaya ji .. Hari anant Hari Katha ananta.....

Be on topic .... some inaccurate science like ramblings would not do... DFMF ke liye ek book likh dalo to aapko shanti mile ... thoda pani men burf dalo or nahawo to thik rahega ..
 

Bhadra

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@pmaitra

Such uncontrolled profanities coming from you as in post #566 is uncalled for and unnecessary. That can not win arguments.:facepalm:

Not expected from a man of your standards !!!!!!!!!!! :yo:
 

Khagesh

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@pmaitra

Lithium ion batteries for subs and for tanks are much too different.

The Lithium Ion batteries have a significantly higher risk compared to Lead Acid ones and that too at much higher capital costs. To manage that risk you will require the kind of inputs the Japanese and OECD countries have - Great Electrical engineering backbone and Tonnes of Cash. We are short on both.

And this crazy idea will kill the armour in India. Lithium because of its lighter metal base gives a lighter+smaller cell or a higher power density but because of its much lighter metal base also gives a much higher risk of Thermal Runaway. Though there is invariably circuitry to prevent overcharging and overheating during charging but that also implies that the hi-fi tank will quickly become a plain vanilla tank simply because the safety systems will prevent charging of the batteries even if merely the protection circuitry is off. In the heat of battle you can expect that to happen much more often than your normal laptop batteries.

On top of that, whether the protection circuitry works or not the fcuking thing is an explosion risk if the penetrator or molten metal hits it.

This is not the case with a submarine which has enough time between battles to go recharge and balance the batteries properly. And that additionally is in the protective element of water (Water is said to work fine for Lithium Ion battery fires caused by thermal runaways). A tank on the other hand has to move much more erratically while bearing 50 degree celsius heat (due to the larger IC engine the innards could be even more than 50 degrees). All this when there will be no water for miles around even to drink let alone extinguish a battery runaway. If you decide to keep the battery pack also cool then you have to provide additional air conditioning for that battery too. Your stock laptop is not actually put-down-able on your laps because the 6 cell battery (300 grams) is generating heat. You can put it on your lap only if the AC in the room is on. Now imagine 25 kg battery for a 650 kg Formula one car which at least has the air flow to cool things down. Now imagine a 50 ton medium tank with a battery pack just sitting there in 50 degrees heat with no water. WTH.

And what does the DGMF expect. Will they get the electrical engineers from the EME for on field jugaadu maintenance jobs. Ab kya EME bhi inki nauker bun jayegi, just so that they can source hybrid power tanks from US to cruise around town.

Lithium Ion batteries will add at least a week of extra dive time to subs that have much much relaxed space constraints but will be largely useless for a tank which has as much more constrained volume-to-weight ratio.

Lithium batteries for Indian Navy would off course be a great idea and DRDO too should work towards that. Aviation and rocketry has already started using these for electrical power requirements and Navy should not be left behind. But tank mobility is a different need altogether (even tank electricals should be managable).

Lithium Ion batteries were introduced by the Japanese and this is just another way of making us part with our money for something we will never need and actually harm the safety standards maintainable.


Added later - I think the 800X2 hp would be best - One in the front one in the back.
 
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su35

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Add Bharat forge to the list, it seems they also want to come into Engine design. as per the NDTV interview.
Thats true Private companies do not have capability to manufacture tank Only DRDO Has. We can only hope form DRDO
 

su35

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Well Sir, I believe those type of question, the designer will have to pose and ask that question to DGMF/ answer those in the modular design. From 50 tons to come down 5 tons would not be difficult with technologies / innovative design.

However, in this thread itself I have quoted US study on FCS which aims to make a 45 ton ton with best protection in the world
I even though they look fabolus in paper they are not so easy to build or to maintain. Regarding their development USA govt has not invested any money on the project but allowed SEP upgrade in M1. They favored Javlin Advanced anti tank Missile over New tank.
 

Bhadra

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I even though they look fabolus in paper they are not so easy to build or to maintain. Regarding their development USA govt has not invested any money on the project but allowed SEP upgrade in M1. They favored Javlin Advanced anti tank Missile over New tank.
Fine, but user has the right to ask for a car which flies... ask for a mobile phone which is better than a PC .. ask for a train which has a shit pot under his buttocks.. and a dildo hanging over the seat at a speed of 200 km PH....

That is how the consumer driven science and technology gets into action...

I agree with you that the US paper on FCS is a science driven fiction.. but what ever they have listed is existing in satellite and space technologies.. it is highly feasible.. If they want it they can do it. If India wants it can not be done because of our third class reservationist scientists .. That is what your argument could be..

Only thing is that US do not envisage an emergent need for employment of that tank and feel that if requirements exists, it can be handled by their existing resources which is so huge.

Every country has diverse and different needs. India has its own. For the armour proponents and users in India the need is to overcome the obstacle ridden terrains in Western border, Ladhakh, Sikkim, Arunanchal, Bangladesh, Jungles of Burma, air portability and transportation by sea for amphibious roles. That is to cater for all futuristic environments.

Whether the DGMF or DRDO so far have been fools is secondary matter. What matters is the Country specific requirements and the sooner we realise what we require the better. And Arjun with 68 tons and third class technologies does not (and does not) fit into that bill.

Let us realise that ... the sooner the better ...
 

pmaitra

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Whether the DGMF or DRDO so far have been fools is secondary matter. What matters is the Country specific requirements and the sooner we realise what we require the better. And Arjun with 68 tons and third class technologies does not (and does not) fit into that bill.

Let us realise that ... the sooner the better ...
Please list the technologies used in the Arjun that you consider third class.
 

Bhadra

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Please list the technologies used in the Arjun that you consider third class.
Things and technologies where Indian Mechanised forces are grappling with are more than described here :

Army’s Armour Drives

http://defencesecurityindia.com/armys-armour-drives/
Looking ahead to the induction and mordernisation of the ambitious Main Battle Tank (MBT) programme, the Indian Army is challenged by some grave issues like night blindness of the tanks , ordnance shortage and the fatigue of T-90s including many others

Rahul Bedi

The Indian army’s ambitious main battle tank (MBT) induction and modernisation programmes are in a state of flux, afflicted by delays and an overarching lack of planning and resource management.

Its continually postponed plans to equip 61 armoured regiments that remain hobbled by the army’s vacillation and inefficiency in formulating realistic qualitative requirements (QRs) for its MBT fleet. Interminable bureaucratic delays by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in approving badly-needed imports and upgrade contracts merely exacerbate the problem.

“Defence planners remain helpless in augmenting the army’s armour capabilities which are ageing and years behind schedule” defence analyst Lieutenant General Vijay Kapoor, a retired armoured corps officer said.

All those involved in the planning processes-the user, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and the MoD-seem collectively incapable of cooperating to effectively boost the army’s crucial armour profile, he added.India’s former Army chief, General Deepak Kapoor had added to the gravity of this shortcoming.

In a candid, but worrying admittance, he had declared in January 2010, that around 80 per cent of the Indian Army’s MBTs, projected to operate in an essentially volatile and unfriendly neighbourhood, were ‘night blind’. The armoured columns of neighbouring nuclear rivals Pakistan and China, on the other hand, he had stated, were 80 and 100 per cent night-fighting capable.

“One of the major areas of my concerns is to remove the night blindness of the tanks, so that we are able to effectively fight at night as we are able to do in the day,” Gen Kapoor had declared, revealing one of the army’s enduring but worst kept secret, which remains unresolved.

“There are projects in the pipeline for ensuring the kind of night vision capability that some of our adversaries have, but these take three to four years to fructify” the army chief had stated, helplessly reiterating what some of his predecessors had similarly conceded privately, but failed to rectify.

The Indian Army operates a mix of some 2400 imported and licence built ‘Ajeya’ T72M1s MBTs, 657 ‘Bhishma’ T90s platforms and 124 indigenously designed by Avadi-based, Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and OFB-built Arjun Mk I tanks.

India imported 310 T90s in 2001-124 in completed form and the remaining 186 in kit form for assembly by the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, near Chennai – for Rs 36.25 billion. Thereafter, in 2007 it inked another Rs 49 billion deal for 347 additional T 90 MBTs.

The latter import followed delays by the HVF in building 1000 T 90s under the 2001 purchase agreement due to problems in translating a warehouse full of Russian technical manuals and Moscow’s reluctance in transferring technology to locally construct the MBT, especially with regard to metallurgy in forging its 125 mm barrels.

By 2022, the Indian Army aims on operating around 1650 T90s, which along with Arjun MK I and its upgraded Mk II model will, in due course, replace the T 72M1s that are presently undergoing incremental upgradation. But this proposed switch stands largely postponed for now as the HVFs capacity to licence build the superior MBTs and Arjun’s remains limited.

The army has already inducted its first batch of 124 DRDO-developed and the OFB-run HVF-built Arjun MK Is, it ordered in 2000. Deliveries of an equal number it signed up for in August 2010 – which together,are enough to equip four regiments and scheduled for completion by 2016. For the follow-on order, the HVF plans on building 24 Arjun MK Is in the first batch till December 2014 and 50 units each year thereafter, till the total order of 124 is completed.

Alongside, the army is considering ordering some 250 Arjun Mk IIs, which incorporate 93 improvements-including 19 major ones-over Arjun Mk I. The upgraded platform, in which Israel Military Industries and Elbit Systems of Israel are collaborating closely with the DRDO’s CVRDE centre at Avadi, is presently undergoing the final round of user trials in Rajasthan.

CVRDE head P Shiv Kumar said improvements in Arjun Mk II, implemented in tandem with the Indian Army, include equipping the MBT with advanced thermal imaging sights for night fighting and the capability to fire Israel Aerospace Industry (IAI)-designed semi-active laser guided LAHAT missiles from its 120mm rifled gun to neutralise enemy tanks.

Weighing seven tons more than the 60-ton Arjun Mk I, the Arjun Mk II will also be fitted with indigenously developed explosive reactive armour (ERA) to counter armor piercing fin stabilised discarding sabot (APFSDS), high explosive anti-tank rounds and rocket-propelled grenade attacks and advanced land navigation and communication systems.

Additionally, it has a mine plough and an improved suspension and tracks to bear the additional load. An auxiliary power unit with an 8.5 kw capacity – up from Arjun Mk Is 4.5 kw-containerisation of its ammunition and modifications to its hull and turret to give it a lower and less vulnerable silhouette, constituting part of the improvement package. Panoramic sights, an upgraded gun barrel with an equivalent firing charge of 500 rounds, an automatic target tracking system, tank commanders’ panoramic sight and digital control harness complete the MBTs upgrade.

CVRDE is also collaborating with a local private sector manufacturer to develop a Mobile Camouflaging System to mitigate the threat of interference from enemy sensors and smart munitions for fitment onto the MBT at a later stage.

But efforts to indigenously upgrade the MBTs power-pack to 1500 cc to endure the supplementary weight have been shelved and Arjun Mk II will continue with Mk Is 1400cc German MTU 838Ka-501 diesel engine and semi-automatic RENK RK-304A transmission.

However, the Arjun Mk II fitted with a large proportion of imported systems, is expected to cost an exorbitant Rs 370 million ($5.96 million) each, once completed, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament in August 2011. In comparison, Arjun MK I with over 60 per cent imported components is priced at around Rs 170 million per tank, less than half the price of its upgraded model. The proven T 90S, on the other hand, were procured for $2.2-2.5 million per unit or nearly three platforms for the price of one Arjun Mk II.

In a significant development, the anticipated success of Arjun Mk II has more or less put paid to the army’s plans to develop a 50-ton future main battle tank (FMBT) to replace the upgraded T 72M1s, 2020 onwards.

In December 2010 Defence Minister A K Antony had informed Parliament that the FMBT would be developed within a decade. He said the army had conceptualised its requirements and the DRDO was carrying out a feasibility study.

The DRDO, for its part, had seconded a team of academics, technicians and army officers to develop the FMBTs transmission and engine called the Bharat Power Pack. “We are confident that we will be ready with the FMBT prototype in five to seven years,” S Sundaresh, DRDOs chief controller of armaments and combat engineering division had said in Chennai in late 2010. Working with a foreign consultant, in all probability from Israel, he said the DRDO was looking to develop a modular design FMBT capable of being upgraded whenever new technology emerged.

But the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which after several years has failed to effectively formulate the proposed FMBTs preliminary specification qualitative requirements (PSQR), recently proposed the project’s abandonment. Instead, it is believed to have indicated its preference for gradually upgrading Arjun’s operational capability and agility, by reducing its excessive weight without compromising on fire power, for eventual deployment in mountainous terrain.

The DGMF reasoned that building a third MBT production line alongside the T90s and Arjun presented neither economic nor logistic or even operational logic. Besides, it argued that there had been no major breakthroughs in armoured vehicle technology in recent decades and consequently was of the view that the future of indigenous tank building needed to flow from MBT Arjun. This proposal, however, is still under review.

Meanwhile, Project Rhino under which 1900-2200 T 72M1MBTs that form the backbone of the army’s armour formations that were being upgraded, has suffered recurring setbacks.

The retrofit envisages fitting the T 72M1fleet with either partial or full solution thermal imaging fire control systems in addition to equipping them with ERA panels, fibre-optic gyro-based navigation and laser warning systems, frequency hopping radio sets and advanced nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) equipment.

Stabilising the tanks gun control system by attaching a new thermal shroud on the MBT’s 125mm 2A46 smooth bore gun for greater accuracy and equipping the tank with new integrated fire detection and suppression systems would have completed the staggered retrofit package to keep the T72M1s in service till 2015-2020 and possibly, even beyond.

“The T72M1s lack of night fighting capability is due largely to the army’s incompetence and the MoDs lack of equipment awareness” retired Brigadier Arun Sahgal of the Forum for Strategic Initiative in New Delhi said. Both seem incapable of working together to enhance the military’s mechanised force capability, the former armoured corps officer added.

The crucial acquisition of around 950 full solution thermal imaging fire control systems (TIFCS) – 250 of them replacements for the Drawa-T FCS from PCO-Cenzin of Poland, the $ 72.73 million contract for which was terminated in 2005-and around 750-800 third generation, thermal imaging stand alone systems (TISAS) for fitment onto around 1700-1800 T72M1s, still awaits closure.

Over the past five years the army has acquired and installed merely 300 TISAS from Israel’s Elbit Systems Electro-optics or El Op for the T72M1s for around $120,000 each. But army sources said many of these were reportedly malfunctioning because of overheating in the Rajasthan desert.

And it was only in April 2013 that the MoDs Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of some 4780 thermal imaging (TI) sights for the army’s mechanised fleet including Infantry Combat Vehicles (ICVs) from the state-run Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) over the next few years. Military analysts, however, believe these TI systems will be produced in collaboration with El Op with whom BEL has a close, albeit classified working relationship.

Of these, the T-72 and T 90s fleets will receive 2000 and 1200 TI sights respectively; the remaining 1580 imagers will be fitted onto the army’s Russian BMP-1 and BMP-2 ICVs which too suffer from night blindness.

Efforts at replacing the T 72M1s 780hp V12 air cooled multi-fuel injection engine with the T90s 1000hp V92S2 four-stroke V12 diesel power pack fitted with a turbo-supercharger too remains under development, contributing to the overall upgrade setback.

Operational availability of the T 72M1s too is problematic. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) imported T-72 tanks require their first overhaul after 12 years or 10,000km while the second one is carried out after 22 years or 18,000 km. For HVF licence built T 72M1s, the first overhaul is after 10 years or 5,000 km and the second after 20 years or 9,000 km.

“The backlog of 1572 tanks to be overhauled as of 2005 had arisen primarily due to insufficient overhaul capacity created, failure of the factory (HVF) to make available the quality spares in time and inadequate supply of tanks due for overhaul by the Army,” the CAG stated in its report on combat vehicles tabled in Parliament in May, 2006. Consequently by 2015, the CAG warned, there would be a further accumulation of another 1983 tanks for their first and second overhaul, a situation that would ‘adversely effect’ operational readiness.

The T 72M1 fleet also faces a depletion of 125 mm AMK340 shells produced by the state-run Ordnance Factory Board with not enough rounds for the army to even carry out mandatory, bi-annual basic firing exercises over the past five years. Former army chief Gen V K Singh referred to this paucity of 125 mm tank ammunition in his April 2012 letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, which was leaked to a Mumbai newspaper generating widespread controversy.

Earlier in late 2011, the MoD had initiated the emergency import of 66,000 125mm APFSDS rounds from Russia for the T 72M1s on grounds of ‘operational necessity’. This had followed intimation by the army that its war wastage reserves of 125mm rounds had dropped well below ‘critical levels’. The MoD sources said the emergency ordnance procurement, reportedly at inflated prices, also obliged it to waive the offset obligation of 30 per cent mandated for all Indian military purchases over Rs 3 billion.

This ordnance shortage was also triggered by the destruction 2003 onwards of 150,000-200,000 T 72M1 AMK340 rounds worth around Rs 7 billion due to a combination of defective manufacturing and negligence in storing. The AMK-340s semi-combustible cartridge case that is filled with triple–base propellant, was found to have inadequate packing between the layers to prevent leakage in high storage temperatures, often under the open sun without even overhead protection, rendering it unsafe.

These defective rounds had also “demoralized” T 72M1crews after a series of AMK-340 rounds burst inside the MBTs barrels. In one such accident two soldiers are believed to have died some years ago at Babina. Armoured corps officers said thereafter nervous tank crews had, in several instances, refused to fire the AMK-340 rounds and when forced to do so resorted to elaborate ‘jugaad’ or innovative solutions to detonate the shells a safe distance from the tank.

T 90s ammunition too is posing a problem for the army.Initially, the T 90s fired Russian-made AMK-338 and AMK-339 rounds. But these had more or less been exhausted in training and the MBTs 125 mm smoothbore guns have yet to be configured to fire locally manufactured AMK-340 rounds, in effect leaving many platforms virtually ammunition-less.

In August 2013 the MoD signed a Rs 30-billion ($461 million) contract with the state-owned Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for an undisclosed number of Invar anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) for the T90s fleet for delivery by 2018.

But army sources said BDL, which has been making Invar ATGMs based on the Russian 9M119M Refleks missile under a collaborative agreement with Rosoboronexport since 2006-07, would only be able to meet a part of the Indian Army’s projected requirement for some 20,000 projectiles.

A substantial portion of the remaining ordnance would need to be supplemented by imports from Russia. However, many tank officers feared that the Army’s budgetary constraints and the sharp decline in the value of the rupee against the US dollar would preclude wholly fulfilling the critical Invar ATGM deficit, further imperiling operations.

The T 90s also faced ‘fatigue’ problems and needed major overhauling as, over years they had been ‘over exposed’ in exercises by senior commanders.

Each T 90s has a maximum life of 650 on the onboard rev-counter (static running equal’s one rev per hour whilst traversing a distance of 17.5 km is one rev). However, in less than four years after the tanks entered regimental service around 2002-03 most had completed 600 revs and were in need of major overhauls. Tank gun barrels-capable of firing 220 effective full charge (EFC) rounds- too were imperiled. The T 90s can undergo a maximum of three gun changes.

A paucity of training simulators of which there were only four – two driving and two for gunnery instruction -contributed to the MBT’s overuse. To compound matters, these simulators were divided between Babina, Patiala, Jhansi and Ahmednagar forcing tank crews to waste time racing to each location. The situation was further complicated by the simulator maintenance wing being headquartered at Jhansi, resulting in delays if problems occurred at any of the other three locations.

In conclusion, the army is in the mode of processing the procurement of 300 light tanks weighing 22 tons each – 200 wheeled and 100 tracked – to equip two proposed armoured formations under raising, alongside the new Mountain Strike corps, for deployment in precipitous terrain along the unresolved Chinese frontier. Some of these proposed platforms are for employment in battlefield reconnaissance in the desert region, in urban and semi-urban environments, in riverine terrain and marshy ground. The MoD had dispatched a request for information to overseas vendors in October 2009 for these light tanks, but so far has failed to follow up on this requirement.
 
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