Indian Army T- 90 (Bhishma) and T- 72 (M-1) Tanks

[ArgonPrime]

Doesnt the smaller size of the auto turret reduces the need of armour needed.

Depends. If you can live with the prospect of your tanks getting disabled from the front by even 40 mm autocannon fire, then yes. If not, then not so much.

 

[Apollyon]

Have you guys considered
- drawing color coded lines in 3D instead of 2D
- considering angle of attack
- considering point of contact on frontal and top surface

to make assumptions on turret protection?

 

[Bleh]

I think, in light of how things stand right now, the Indian Army would be wise to focus a lot more on maneuvering warfare instead of its traditional set-piece way of warfighting.

Oh, and they should train the gunners to aim specifically for the LFP, whenever the situation permits.

Actually yeah, I doubt they've not noticed it but T-90 is actually the ideal tank to counter MBT-2000/Vt-4 with!.. Not Arjun (unless it can aim better & pick them off from afar, like Israel-Arab engagements).

Check this out:

Frontally absolutely anything being thrown at a T-90 will easy penetrate a it, as long as the rounds land remotely centre-ish... Even the ERA is mostly at the sides. Paki tanks have a clear advantage here.

But at our tanks are actually meant to take flanking hits & will easily stop those Paki ±600mm APFSDS, while T-90s can pick off any of their with single hits to the flanks.

 

[Bleh]

The T 14 Auto turret has helped it to reduce its weight to just 55 Tonnes while keeping the turret armoured.

Which turret-armour is that?.. It's turret about can only stop upto 57mm auto-cannon rounds. People criticsze Arjuns gunner-sight placement, but look at T-14!
But it's modular & any damaged part can be changed on field, I read one claim that even the whole turret can be replaced in 1hr with only engineering vehicles.

They've put all armour in the hull, protecting the crew & carousel... Even the lower glacis is 700mm thick.

Ideally this is an perfect design with max possible protection.... except nobody knows if it'll actually work. Any tank worth its money would be able to hit the turre, damaging optics & autoloader mechanism. Then what, it'll run over the enemy?

@Bleh dosent the Type 10 uses special steel and armour to reduce its weight. Is it that much costly?

Don't know much about that.

 

[shiphone]

Umm.....no, that's not what I meant. In this case, 220 mm is the actual thickness of the armor plate but since the plate was inclined at an angle 65 degrees, the LOS penetration achieved by the round would be upwards of 500 mm easy. I hope I'm making sense.

Here, I made a crude diagram in MS Paint -
View attachment 60262

actully it's very simple ... cos66.4 = 0.4.... so CD=AB/0.4... so II M（modified Block II for export）'s ability: 550mm

a couple of years ago,Pakistan has got the TOT of this 125mm APFSDS- the export varient of China self-use Block 2 APFSDS.... decades ago, Pakistan has got the TOT and was manufacturing the Block 1/I(460mm) and Block 1.5(500mm)...

the PA's new VT-4 comes with new shell... the BTA4 125mm, but it's just the latest shell got the export permit, in fact it should be the China self-use Block 2 APFSDS mentioned above...lol...a little above 600mm

 

[ArgonPrime]

@Bleh dosent the Type 10 uses special steel and armour to reduce its weight. Is it that much costly?

Yeah, the so-called nanocrystal steel. It's got higher tensile strength than your regular RHA but it's nothing even close to this out-of-this-world adamantium like thing that it's made out to be in certain circles.

 

[Bleh]

Yeah, the so-called nanocrystal steel. It's got higher tensile strength than your regular RHA but it's nothing even close to this out-of-this-world adamantium like thing that it's made out to be in certain circles.

Not to mention, tensile stregth is irrelevant in armour penetration context... It's just a casing.

 

[ArgonPrime]

actully it's very simple ... cos66.4 = 0.4.... so CD=AB/0.4... so II M（modified export Block II）'s ability: 550mm

a couple of years ago,Pakistan has got the TOT of this 125mm APFSDS- the export varient of China self-use Block 2 APFSDS.... decades ago, Pakistan has got the TOT and was manufacturing the Block 1/I(460mm) and Block 1.5(500mm)...

That's correct.

the PA's new VT-4 comes with new shell... the BTA4 125mm, but it's just the latest shell got the export permit, in fact it should be the China self-use Block 2 APFSDS mentioned above...lol...a little above 600mm

Yeah, luckily, the Kontact 5 copies we have can significantly degrade its effectiveness if not break the rod in half. But still, it's a good round, for China that is.

 

[Haldilal]

@Bleh @ArgonPrime which is better Type 10 or Panther in terms of protections.

 

[ArgonPrime]

@Bleh @ArgonPrime which is better Type 10 or Panther in terms of protections.

Panther??!! Sorry, I do not follow you, did you mean Leopard??

 

[Haldilal]

Panther??!! Sorry, I do not follow you, did you mean Leopard??

Sorry K2.

 

[Bleh]

@Bleh @ArgonPrime which is better Type 10 or Panther in terms of protections.

K-2 got the superior armour layout, especially on that mantlet... Type-10 simply has some on the sides but that's most likely just storage boxes, not armour modules.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Sorry K2.

I see. Anyway, @Bleh gave a perfect explanation already. The only thing I would like to add is that I do not like either of the two, because neither of the two has got any worthwhile side protection to speak of. Heck, even the monstrosity that is the Arjun MkIA turret has got a better armor profile in that regard!!

 

[ArgonPrime]

Actually yeah, I doubt they've not noticed it but T-90 is actually the ideal tank to counter MBT-2000/Vt-4 with!.. Not Arjun (unless it can aim better & pick them off from afar, like Israel-Arab engagements).

Why not?? After all, its base armor has got higher LOS thickness and now it's got K 5 ERA as well. So I think the Arjuns can do equally well if not better.
Check this out:View attachment 60269

Frontally absolutely anything being thrown at a T-90 will easy penetrate a it, as long as the rounds land remotely centre-ish... Even the ERA is mostly at the sides. Paki tanks have a clear advantage here.

True.

But at our tanks are actually meant to take flanking hits & will easily stop those Paki ±600mm APFSDS, while T-90s can pick off any of their with single hits to the flanks.

That's the idea. But instead of the turret sides, the gunners should be aiming for the side hull and thereby increasing the chance of hitting the ammo.

And I wouldn't worry too much about their new APFSDS rounds, these are still monoblock penetrators unlike the likes of DM 63 and such and hence, the K 5s will still be quite effective.

 

[ArgonPrime]

K-2 got the superior armour layout, especially on that mantlet... Type-10 simply has some on the sides but that's most likely just storage boxes, not armour modules. View attachment 60274View attachment 60275

I think those are spaced armor panels, similar to what the Germans have employed in their Leopard 2s. But in the absence of any worthwhile base armor, I doubt how effective these would be for the Type 10.

 

[shiphone]

after so many years ,you even can't make clear the AK-1/MBT-2000's chasis front protection...it's not a Soviet/Russian classic layout...lol... probably you should have a look at Leopard2...

and then, you will understand the layout of VT-4...just the same strain

yes, the chief designer did mentioned uper-limit 700mm RHA protection against APFSDS years ago...but this is year 2020, as the Third customer of VT-4 MBT, PA has requested the enhanced protection - thicker turret front Armour and heavier/more complicated ERA...so the 700mm is the lower bound for the Pakistan VT-4

the VT-4 for Thailand and Nigeria

and PA's VT-4

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars if this was possible then yes. Should seriously consider a Tank EX MK 2.

 

[Bleh]

And now the Turks will get such a superior armour layout.

Altay actually got one of the best armoured layouts in the world right now, especially that upper-hull & mantlet. Bit cramped probably, but they've got a winner.

Why not?? After all, its base armor has got higher LOS thickness and now it's got K 5 ERA as well. So I think the Arjuns can do equally well if not better.

Present turret has got huge weak spot, plus the ERA only covers one side... The side armour is also no existant in Mark1. Frontal blocks spread very wide but still a risky option. It's better off doing long range gunnery while moving around.

But fot T-90, presenting this angle to the enemy at front (& shooting at flanks) is the safest option.

Al-Khalid actually has a good fire suppression system, plus lowest part of hull is harder to hit... but due to no protection at the side of the turret any heat/APFSDS has guaranteed penetration. Will kill both the commander & gunner.

 

[Haldilal]

Altay actually got one of the best armoured layouts in the world right now, especially that upper-hull & mantlet. Bit cramped probably, but they've got a winner. View attachment 60279

Present turret has got huge weak spot, plus the ERA only covers one side... The style armour is also no existant in Mark1.

Al-Khalid actually has a good fire suppression system, plus lowest part of hull is harder to hit... but due to no protection at the side of the turret any heat/APFSDS has guaranteed penetration. Will kill both the commander & gunner.

This is the final design.

This were previous two designs.

This is the proposed AHT design for the Urban Tank.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Altay actually got one of the best armoured layouts in the world right now, especially that upper-hull & mantlet. Bit cramped probably, but they've got a winner. View attachment 60279

Exactly.

Al-Khalid actually has a good fire suppression system,

that system only works on fuel/engine fire but if your propellants get cooked off, you're pretty much dead meat (unless of course, the ammo is isolated). They just brew up way too quickly for any fire suppression system to take effect.

plus lowest part of hull is harder to hit... but due to no protection at the side of the turret any heat/APFSDS has guaranteed penetration. Will kill both the commander & gunner.

You don't have to score a hit at the absolute lowest part of the hull in order to brew up the ammunition. You didn't have to hit the carousel, the spare ammo is also stored in the hull and is stacked up to the hull roof, so there you have it.