Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[SGOperative]

C

Frankly I don’t trust CAG reports for such things, they are created by bureaucrats and auditors not independent defence analysts with expert knowledge, IA can misrepresent and obfuscate plenty to hide their systemic issues. M777 barrel burst because of faulty OFB ammo (apparently) and nothing happens, same thing happens to ATAGS and they have to conduct an examination of the entire design and send it to reconfirmtory trails

The only thing I trust is that some guys at the top are getting very ‘fat’ from all this

CAG report is the most trustable one in this, and not like OFB is any saint in that, even the Private Customers are a testimony of that.

 

[SGOperative]

Ordnance factories hit back at Army claims, cite export orders, accidents of other equipment

In a statement, OFB said only 19 per cent of the accidents involving defence ammunition between January 2015 and December 2019 could be attributed to the board.

theprint.in

OFB's side of story, good read.

And the relevant part :-

"
There has been a decrease in the number of accidents since 2005-06, when the responsibility for inspection of input material was given to the OFB. Since 2013, it added, it instituted a new random sample-based check mechanism on freshly manufactured ammunition batches, in addition to the established procedure followed by the DGQA.

"

The 2017 CAG report is not very much in favor of them

 

[SGOperative]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Few uneducated questions from uninformed fellow :-

1) Why didn't they use indian ammo during testing itself when we were going to use it at home

2) why didn't it goes through the extensive testing cycle whic Indian army is famous for, not a single video/picture is available of jawan testing those Rifle before induction.


3) why the IA always tries to do jugaad, buying a battle Rifle but not scope (released an RFI which will take a million years to produce results), using a higher residue round in a DI Rifle and more.


Isn't soldiers life depends on his weapon and doing untested jugaad will decrease his chances in war.

4) army is equally responsible for their insas Fiasco, they hate DESI weapon but they still tried to desify a phoren weapon,. Why didn't they understand that phoren maal are not made to do Jugaad.



You either go all Indian or all foreign instead of this mix and match

Middlemen were involved Just google one was caught along with his wife in 2010-11 around i guess.

Bringing DI version despite knowing the terrain and ammo issue we have, was dubious decision from the start up. This L1 tender thing need to be reconsidered.

I know some members said that modern DI aren't susceptible to previous jamming etc. Issues . Yes but in ideal conditions else they aren't as good as an ak or gp rifle .

Here they are using the same ammo that they use for LMG which probably leaves high residue and higher recoil too.

They are making the same circus IAF did.

 

[Flying Dagger]

We were all looking up for some news may be good news and got this...

You know what we need to gang up and start pinpoint how stupid these decision makers are... At top.


Look at all the defense deal we have done during Modi time , all of them are mere tokenism and big talks but lie flat at ground.

Not blaming him but he doesn't have a defense minister suitable for the post and the one we have Gen VK Singh was deliberately pushed down to make sure limelight stays on Bosses.

 

[Fire and groove]

all small arms RFI from IA clearly mention that the weapon system should fire currently used field ammunition. it's not the case that OFB ammo is bad(in this case), rather that OFB ammo is not optimal for sig-716i that has been bought.

i think it would be wrong to interpret from this scenario that OFB ammo is inferior.

one can't expect IA to buy different ammo for 76000 rifles.

A gun's built around it's ammunition, which needs to be qualitatively capable. This is simply not the case in the Indian military where the ammunition and their storage is as bad as it can get. No rifle will ever satisfy the army if it's ammunition can't keep up, you'd think they'de have figured that out by now.

 

[Fire and groove]

Suspicious when OFB ammo is exported to the US and reviews are positive of it

Nothing is good enough for the IA, remember early on when their soldier were almost falling over from recoil of 716? Then they started to do proper stances and recoil almost eliminated in after videos

Methinks they are trying to blame their weaknesses in training on equipment

So AK203 is going to solve all their woes is it? 7.62*39 spray and pray on the LAC and LOC? What a bunch of clowns

I wouldn't take that too seriously, the ammunition that's exported probably goes through more rigorous QC standards than the one sold to the army. We need a free market in the Indian defense industry

 

[Marliii]

Man OFB is such a chad. their bullets can damage guns of other gun makers so that in the end indian army will run back to R2 .one that has been rejected by IA itself. even when its dead OFB still is has 200 iq moves.

 

[Lonewarrior]

If after rejecting a DI rifle by saying it's having very high recoil they choose a long stroke one (OFB R2); then that would be real hutzpah.

 

[fire starter]

 

[Love Charger]

I don't know much about light weapons, but I think India's move is right, the reason
1. The recoil of 7.62 is too much, it has exceeded the limit that people can bear, I have seen a video, when an Indian soldier used SIG716 to fire bursts, the recoil caused him to fall,
2. The problem of the scope, I have collected a lot of pictures of SIG716, they either use the old INSAS rifle scope, or the single magnification holographic scope or the red dot scope,
However, the advantage of SIG716 is that it is used beyond 400m, so a high-magnification scope is required, at least AOCG,
And for ordinary infantry, the SIG716 is redundant
It's more important to spend your money on some scopes than on more guns

Write a letter to ghq india , new Delhi about your concerns.
We people here have been on each other's throats as far as small arms are concerned

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

With 'Snags' Reported, Defence Ministry Decides Against Repeating US Assault Rifle Orde

The supplementary procurement of SIG716 7.62x51 mm rifles had been abandoned following several "operational glitches" which had surfaced soon after they were issued to Indian Army units deployed along the Line of Control in Kashmir.

Chandigarh: India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has decided against inking the Rs 700-crore repeat order it had approved in late 2020 for 72,400 ‘Patrol’ Sig Sauer assault rifles from the US for its military, due to diverse ‘snags’ which had surfaced with earlier imports of an equal number of similar weapon systems a year before.Official sources told The Wire that the supplementary procurement of SIG716 7.62×51 mm rifles had been abandoned following several “operational glitches” which had surfaced soon after they were issued to Indian Army units deployed along the Line of Control in Kashmir and on counter-insurgency operations in the region from December 2019 onwards.

According to industry officials, the “operational shortcomings” in the SIG716 rifles included “jamming” while firing locally produced 7.62 mm rounds, which were not as efficient as imported ammunition, of which limited amounts had initially been acquired but had since been expended.

When fired, these local rounds reportedly, in many instances, tended to spawn “barrel bulges” that rendered many rifles inoperable. These bulges ensued after a round failed to exit the rifle upon firing and then the follow-on round built up tremendous pressure due to the constricted air inside the barrel, causing it, in turn, to either develop a bulge, cracks or even lead to it exploding altogether.

https://m.thewire.in/article/securi...ides-against-repeating-us-assault-rifle-order

OFB ammunition and lack of LVPO sights led to deficiencies in weapon performance.

Imported car mein local low quality k spare part daloge toh yehi hoga

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

So now what alternative does IA have? OFB r2? Or they will only have 72k battle rifles?

 

[Lonewarrior]

"These bulges ensued after a round failed to exit the rifle upon firing and then the follow-on round built up tremendous pressure due to the constricted air inside the barrel, causing it, in turn, to either develop a bulge, cracks or even lead to it exploding altogether."
How does this actually happen?

Just one or two reasons can cause a bullet to get jammed.

1. Less than adequate pressure in cartridge. It can happen if somehow the majority of the powder fails to burn; something very rare. Or it can also happen if the cartridge is loaded with less powder; again something rare given everything is automated.

2. There is a bore obstruction. If you have substantial amount of dirt or mud in the barrel then it'll prevent the round from exiting. This thing is very unlikely to happen as it's not going to occur spontaneously in between firing.

3. You fire the gun over-the-beach or OTB. Only a handful of guns like M27 are designed to be fired OTB; which means you can fire the gun with the barrel completely filled with water. It's also very unlikely to happen given MARCOS were not involved in SIG 716i.


Except these three reasons I'm not aware of any that can cause a round to get stuck.
People here are blaming DI for this; they are wrong. DI has to do nothing with barrel and bore. DI only adversely affects gas port/gas tube and the internal piston.

1. In case of gas tube getting deposited with fouling, you'll have failure to cycle malfunctions as it'll deliver less than optimal pressure; not obstructions.

2. In case of fouling in internal piston, you'll get failure to lock malfunction, as the carbon will bind bolt and carrier; again not an instruction.

Now coming to ammo. There is no such thing as MG ammo and rifle ammo.
This argument happens because of INSAS; but in case of INSAS we have a different loading because we developed that in house.
This is not the case with 7.62x51mm. We started manufacturing that from technical data package we got from Britain (probably Belgium and Canada too). So from atleast half a century we're making standard 7.62x51mm.

So ultimately;
1. High recoil is a classic tactic from MoDs playbook. Remember 7.62x51mm INSAS was also rejected due to high recoil.
2. This "round failed to exit" seems like a sabotage intentionally done to add weight in this decision.

That's it

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

Indian army ko na Indian maal chaiye aur na hi American inko toh sirf Russian pasand aati hai

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

Jugaad lagane k naam pr khud ko mahan samjte hai jugaad sirf short period k liye hote in the last only quality wins too many rifles no standardization lots of pressure on Logistics

 

[Spindrift]

So now what alternative does IA have? OFB r2? Or they will only have 72k battle rifles?

Probably with the later with this being the SOP...

Spoiler

 

[Inderjeet Singh]

Procurement karenge phir deal cancel karenge then again revive the deal phir inke financial support nhi hoge phir yeh OFB se deal Karenge unke equipments mein flaws honge aur phir yeah life circle chlta rahega But no one questions OFB accountability

 

[Marliii]

With all the NGSW going around in US what's MOD's plan ? They dont want heavy recoil. wants shoot to kill what's going on here?

 

[ALBY]

Sir your faith in SIG is firm but you might want to read about how SIG Sauer's P320 pistols replacing Beretta M9 in the US Armed Forces were going bang bang on their own even with slightest of impact on them, they jokingly started calling it ;grenade pistol; due to that,
SIG had to recall many and do extensive fixup on them only then situation became normal.

Sorry i am not much into pistols that why i had missed that news. Anyway as a general consensus Sigs make world class weapons. The very same Sigs were in use with Seals right(older gen)?