Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[SwordOfDarkness]

Actually the Sigs coming in are sub MOA accurate which means they are more accurate than any other self loading rifle in our inventory. The Sig with a scope is far more capable than the dragunovs in our Inventory.

Id doubt it, dragunovs do perfectly fine till 800m. Thats beyond most DMRs like sig. IMO sigs will do okay in DMR role, but not as good as designated DMR like dragunov.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

What is that white thread kind of a thing at the front?

IA doesnt have QD or mlok attachment for sling, so they just used a piece of rope. Not too critical, so shouldnt be much of an issue apart from aesthetics.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Id doubt it, dragunovs do perfectly fine till 800m. Thats beyond most DMRs like sig. IMO sigs will do okay in DMR role, but not as good as designated DMR like dragunov.

Dragunov is one of best DMR rifles......according to 1970's Soviet doctrine.

A SIG 716 with heavy contour barrel, almost 100% free-floated barrel, no moving parts attached to the barrel, quasi-DI operating mechanism and in-line recoil transfer will always be more accurate than a Dragunov with pencil barrel, rigidly attached handguard, huge piston slamming above the barrel, short stroke gas piston and canted recoil transfer.
ANY DAY

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Dragunov is one of best DMR rifles......according to 1970's Soviet doctrine.

A SIG 716 with heavy contour barrel, almost 100% free-floated barrel, no moving parts attached to the barrel, quasi-DI operating mechanism and in-line recoil transfer will always be more accurate than a Dragunov with pencil barrel, rigidly attached handguard, huge piston slamming above the barrel, short stroke gas piston and canted recoil transfer.
ANY DAY

Both are capable of sub MOA, at which point accuracy is up to individual skill + ammo rather than rifle. Dragunov is still a great DMR, better than repurposed battle rifles. Its development in the 70s does not diminish its capabilities - especially since the upgrade tender for IA dragunovs does involve a free floating barrel, which is the only major improvement that it lacks. DI is actually a downside for accuracy, the original DMR sig 716 had short stroke, which got swapped for DI for cheaper prices and marginally lower accuracy.

 

[Marliii]

Both are capable of sub MOA, at which point accuracy is up to individual skill + ammo rather than rifle. Dragunov is still a great DMR, better than repurposed battle rifles. Its development in the 70s does not diminish its capabilities - especially since the upgrade tender for IA dragunovs does involve a free floating barrel, which is the only major improvement that it lacks. DI is actually a downside for accuracy, the original DMR sig 716 had short stroke, which got swapped for DI for cheaper prices and marginally lower accuracy.

I have heard that DI guns are more accurate and not the other way around

 

[Lonewarrior]

Both are capable of sub MOA, at which point accuracy is up to individual skill + ammo rather than rifle. Dragunov is still a great DMR, better than repurposed battle rifles. Its development in the 70s does not diminish its capabilities - especially since the upgrade tender for IA dragunovs does involve a free floating barrel, which is the only major improvement that it lacks. DI is actually a downside for accuracy, the original DMR sig 716 had short stroke, which got swapped for DI for cheaper prices and marginally lower accuracy.

Bada mehnat krwate hain aap Sir, khair...

This is a typical short stroke gas piston gun. To get things bit more exciting, this is the exact Dragunov you're talking about.

See all the vectors of force.

The yellow one, which causes the barrel to move downwards or "whip" is the highest in case of any piston gun.
Lowest in case of any operating mechanism using a thin gas tube.
And non-existent in case of delayed blowback systems.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

]

Bada mehnat krwate hain aap Sir, khair...

This is a typical short stroke gas piston gun. To get things bit more exciting, this is the exact Dragunov you're talking about.
View attachment 135377
See all the vectors of force.

The yellow one, which causes the barrel to move downwards or "whip" is the highest in case of any piston gun.
Lowest in case of any operating mechanism using a thin gas tube.
And non-existent in case of delayed blowback systems.

Wont the whiplash happen after the bullet has left the barrel? The way I see it, bolt cant unlock till bullet leaves barrel - Till then the piston will still be moving back, and yellow vector wont exist. After the bullet leaves, then bolt unlocks, yellow hole discharges excess pressure , cycle completes.

DI has to deal with fouling , burning off lube, etc too. AFAIK Short stroke has a small advantage in accuracy. Short stroke is also better if you are not using match grade ammo tuned for the rifle, as excess pressure doesnt impact rifle performance as it is released as soon as piston moves back enough for rifle operation.

Though I have not been involved with rifle design/ manufacturing, do correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Wont the whiplash happen after the bullet has left the barrel? The way I see it, bolt cant unlock till bullet leaves barrel - Till then the piston will still be moving back, and yellow vector wont exist. After the bullet leaves, then bolt unlocks, yellow hole discharges excess pressure , cycle completes.

As soon as the bullet passes the gas port piston starts moving rearward and the gas block starts pushing the barrel down.
Moreover the distance between gas block to muzzle is more than 200mm whereas the maximum stroke of the piston is under 30mm.

DI has to deal with fouling , burning off lube, etc too. AFAIK Short stroke has a small advantage in accuracy. Short stroke is also better if you are not using match grade ammo tuned for the rifle, as excess pressure doesnt impact rifle performance as it is released as soon as piston moves back enough for rifle operation.

Why bring fouling and burning lube in accuracy!?

The only actually advantage a short stroke gas piston can provide in any gun, any scenario is that you can isolated all the heat from the gun and if required you can even remove heat from it. Other than that short and long both are same.

You remove barrel from a DI gun, you're still left with an extremely hot bolt carrier group.
You remove barrel from a long stroke gas piston gun, you're still left with a hot gas tube.
But in case of short stroke gas piston, you remove the barrel and the whole gun becomes cool to touch.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Given free floated handguard in all different rifles:

Accuracy:
Roller-delayed blowback > DI > Short-stroke piston > Long stroke piston.

Though SCAR-H and HK-417 based DMRs (both short-stroke designs) are capable of sub-MOA precision, however from IA's inventory perspective:

PSG-1 (0.5 MOA) > Sig-716i (1 MOA) > Dragunov (1.5-2 MOA) average accuracy

However, in terms of reliability:
Long stroke> short stroke > DI

From IA's perspective in terms of reliability under adverse firing conditions (torture test):

AK-203 > Sig-716i

 

[ManhattanProject]

Id doubt it, dragunovs do perfectly fine till 800m. Thats beyond most DMRs like sig. IMO sigs will do okay in DMR role, but not as good as designated DMR like dragunov.

No they will do far better, better accuracy means consistency which is key in sniping. The sig mags can carry more ammunition, hence can put out more firepower. The dragunov ammunition 7.62x54r isnt loaded consistently and has no match grade option. The 7.62nato ammo have wide aftermarket and precision match ammunition. The sigs will beat a dragunov in every possible way in a DMR role, and dont forget they can take supressors easily. The only advantage the dragunov will have is muzzle velocity, which at 800 meter wont outperform 7.62nato all that much anyways.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

No they will do far better, better accuracy means consistency which is key in sniping. The sig mags can carry more ammunition, hence can put out more firepower. The dragunov ammunition 7.62x54r isnt loaded consistently and has no match grade option. The 7.62nato ammo have wide aftermarket and precision match ammunition. The sigs will beat a dragunov in every possible way in a DMR role, and dont forget they can take supressors easily. The only advantage the dragunov will have is muzzle velocity, which at 800 meter wont outperform 7.62nato all that much anyways.

What is stopping ofb from making match grade ammo? Nothing, if army asks, they can make ez. And even if OFB machines are unreliable af, they can sit one guy down and do it manually, will easily cover IA requirement with precision scale for measurement of load.

The dragunovs obviously need an upgrade (which is planned, no idea how its progressing), but from a design standpoint they are better than sig.

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Oops

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[Fire and groove]

Given free floated handguard in all different rifles:

Accuracy:
Roller-delayed blowback > DI > Short-stroke piston > Long stroke piston.

Though SCAR-H and HK-417 based DMRs (both short-stroke designs) are capable of sub-MOA precision, however from IA's inventory perspective:

PSG-1 (0.5 MOA) > Sig-716i (1 MOA) > Dragunov (1.5-2 MOA) average accuracy

However, in terms of reliability:
Long stroke> short stroke > DI

From IA's perspective in terms of reliability under adverse firing conditions (torture test):

AK-203 > Sig-716i

The importance of reliability is extremely overblown. As long the rifles function in their environment and there aren't abnormal problems popping up across the inventory, reliability is largely irrelevant. Remember, we're not running an insurgency here, the military can and regularly has to maintain it's weapons.

 

[ALBY]

As far as I know, AK is although isn't reliable but has very precise accuracy up to 200 meters (I could be wrong). It's the only weapon with enough stopping power, 1 bullet is all you need to stop a 90kg mass to a full stop. Hell Ya. Russian army uses it, so something might be good about it.

Can somebody throw more light to why this weapon was chosen and why are GHATAK rifle ain't come close to it. Kab tak foreign mal chalega? If my memory serves me right, PA is also ordered SIG SAUR rifles although not sure about make, barrel and rounds and chamber.

One thing I do see is the barrel length, is it 16 or 12 inch barrel. Hmm interesting.

Ghatak is absolute crap quality. Btw what will happen when we build Aks here in ofb factories

 

[vampyrbladez]

Ghatak is absolute crap quality. Btw what will happen when we build Aks here in ofb factories

Uttar Pradesh's Amethi factory has Major General Sanjeev Sengar, a serving Indian Army Officer as the CEO of Indo-Russia Rifles Limited (IRRPL).

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) owns the controlling stakes of 50.5% while Kalashnikov owns 42% stake followed by 7.5% stake owned by Rosonboronexport.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/englis...-5000-crore-ak203-assault-rifle-deal-10035413

Trichy Assault Rifle looks like a license built / ToT transfer from Arsenal (Bulgaria) and is an excellent weapon.

AK 203 for your everyday service rifle is also a great choice.

Ghaatak on the other hand looks like an FAB kit jury rigged onto a normal AKM and needs more fine tuning.

 

[MisraZ]

What is stopping ofb from making match grade ammo? Nothing, if army asks, they can make ez. And even if OFB machines are unreliable af, they can sit one guy down and do it manually, will easily cover IA requirement with precision scale for measurement of load.

The dragunovs obviously need an upgrade (which is planned, no idea how its progressing), but from a design standpoint they are better than sig.

I think they do manufacture match grade ammo. I did see psg1 specific cartridge in their catalogue.

How's Dragunov (a vintage DMR) better than Sig716i (a more compact as well as accurate platform )from a design standpoint?

 

[vampyrbladez]

I think they do manufacture match grade ammo. I did see psg1 specific cartridge in their catalogue.

How's Dragunov (a vintage DMR) better than Sig716i (a more compact as well as accurate platform )from a design standpoint?

Sig 716i is capable of .5-.6 MOA with that sticky mil grade trigger.

Change that to a match grade one and you can shoot sub .5 MOA all day long.

PSG-1 cannot even compare. Indian Army got a bargain with the Sig 716i rifles.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Repeat order of 72,400 Sig 716i delayed.

In another small arms deal, the repeat order for 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles from Sig Sauer is delayed and more than two officials, on condition of anonymity, said it is likely to be dropped.

Under a ₹700-crore deal in February 2019 with Sig Sauer of the U.S., the Defence Ministry procured 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles through Fast Track Procurement (FTP), most of which were for the Army and have been provided to frontline troops involved in counter-insurgency operations.

The deal is in the Request For Proposal (RFP) stage and went for approval from the Competent Financial Authority (CFA) on February 22, one of the sources cited above said.

However, there is a push for foreclosure of the case given on the emphasis for boosting domestic industry, the source added.

The first lot of 72,400 SIG-716 assault rifles have long been inducted by the Army.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...fle-deal-with-russia/article65221831.ece/amp/

 

[Spadex]

Notice the high cut helmet at 0:19