Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

Flying Dagger

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Nope a DI rifle isn't meant for all troops considering the environment where we operate. I hope we will move to GP soon as replacement in future.

Aks are more reliable for now and our soldiers know well how to operate them so no need for additional maintenance training headache.

So, slowly we are increasing the inventory of Sig. Why not make it the standard issue for all the troops , removing that AK 203 ones? For further orders ,we can go for mass production of Sig in association with private manufacturer. Atleast ammo will be common to all the forces.Better scrap that AK 203 like caracal. Sig can serve for another 30 years or so with continuous upgradation .
 

vampyrbladez

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So, slowly we are increasing the inventory of Sig. Why not make it the standard issue for all the troops , removing that AK 203 ones? For further orders ,we can go for mass production of Sig in association with private manufacturer. Atleast ammo will be common to all the forces.Better scrap that AK 203 like caracal. Sig can serve for another 30 years or so with continuous upgradation .
Because the AK 203 will cost $700 after first batch and lifetime cost in terms of ammunition and spares is less.

Additionally, these rifles will be general purpose ones and not battle rifles like the Sig 716i.
 

GunDeGunday

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So, slowly we are increasing the inventory of Sig. Why not make it the standard issue for all the troops , removing that AK 203 ones? For further orders ,we can go for mass production of Sig in association with private manufacturer. Atleast ammo will be common to all the forces.Better scrap that AK 203 like caracal. Sig can serve for another 30 years or so with continuous upgradation .
Let's leave aside cost for a moment.

Firstly that SIG we're buying is a Battle Rifle, meaning it fires full power 7.62x51 NATO cartridge compared to what our Infantry has been using 7.62x39 which is a Soviet intermediate cartridge size. I won't go into details of what I don't know properly myself but the recoil, ballistic and wounding characteristics, range etc etc are all different and it also creates the issue of having useless ammo if you suddenly switch your caliber and the need to create new rounds of the new caliber which will be a logistical nightmare by itself. You really don't need every infantry man firing full power rounds.

Secondly because the AK's shining quality is its simplicity. Any knobhead can learn to disassemble it in minutes and it's such a common platform for Indian Army and they've been using it for so long further the parts are readily available and lots of inter-compatibility between different AK variants. This also means a lot of weapon issues can be fixed in the field by changing parts with Dead Jihadi's AK.

That isn't to say that the AR platform itself is bad, in fact if you look at say InrangeTV's mud test, the psuedo-direct impingement system of AR15 type of rifles is much better with dirt and debris than AK:


However as a counter-point to the AR a video by Kalashnikov Concern tested AKs with ARs in icy/snowy conditions (Ladakh for example) and found that the AK worked and the AR did not. Now obviously this is the group that makes AK so of course take their claim with a grain of salt but it's worth watching:
 

Flying Dagger

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Let's leave aside cost for a moment.

Firstly that SIG we're buying is a Battle Rifle, meaning it fires full power 7.62x51 NATO cartridge compared to what our Infantry has been using 7.62x39 which is a Soviet intermediate cartridge size. I won't go into details of what I don't know properly myself but the recoil, ballistic and wounding characteristics, range etc etc are all different and it also creates the issue of having useless ammo if you suddenly switch your caliber and the need to create new rounds of the new caliber which will be a logistical nightmare by itself. You really don't need every infantry man firing full power rounds.

Secondly because the AK's shining quality is its simplicity. Any knobhead can learn to disassemble it in minutes and it's such a common platform for Indian Army and they've been using it for so long further the parts are readily available and lots of inter-compatibility between different AK variants. This also means a lot of weapon issues can be fixed in the field by changing parts with Dead Jihadi's AK.

That isn't to say that the AR platform itself is bad, in fact if you look at say InrangeTV's mud test, the psuedo-direct impingement system of AR15 type of rifles is much better with dirt and debris than AK:


However as a counter-point to the AR a video by Kalashnikov Concern tested AKs with ARs in icy/snowy conditions (Ladakh for example) and found that the AK worked and the AR did not. Now obviously this is the group that makes AK so of course take their claim with a grain of salt but it's worth watching:
AR platform both DI and GP need regular cleaning but GP are much better as there is almost no gas running back.

Sig 716 DI is cheaper than Ak 203 price quoted to IA. That's why Caracal despite having a better caracal 816 GP offering couldn't match the price and lost. Sig wasn't a bad choice but not the best one either.

Regarding AKs reliability ruggedness well no one can question that.
 

Flying Dagger

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Because the AK 203 will cost $700 after first batch and lifetime cost in terms of ammunition and spares is less.

Additionally, these rifles will be general purpose ones and not battle rifles like the Sig 716i.
You sure it's 700 dollar I think they quoted 1200 renegotiated to 1100 dollars. Please share the source.

Well if it's 700 dollar then its a big fcukin slap on OFBs near 1000 +dollar TAR .
 

ALBY

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You sure it's 700 dollar I think they quoted 1200 renegotiated to 1100 dollars. Please share the source.

Well if it's 700 dollar then its a big fcukin slap on OFBs near 1000 +dollar TAR .
Regarding the 1100 dollar price it includes the cost of setting up the assembly line ToT, machinery etc.After first batch the price will come down.
 

Johny_Baba

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That isn't to say that the AR platform itself is bad, in fact if you look at say InrangeTV's mud test, the psuedo-direct impingement system of AR15 type of rifles is much better with dirt and debris than AK:
Nope AR worked here not because of improvised DI gas system but because it's well sealed system compared to AK which has got bigger opening on its ejection port as well as that big slot on its top cover or upper section due to reciprocating charging handle.

You should compare the result of Galil ACE mud test by same guy where they were able to operate ACE after immersing it to mud on its left side having spring loaded "curtains" that effectively covered up charging handle slot but still failed when mud was thrown on its ejection port which was more or less same as AK, with mud and shit accumulating on its breech and locking recesses causing jams.


As for ;winter tes; there is no doubt that AR will fail here due to its magazine locking method that's of push-button type with magazine well as that button often jams up with ice, AK OTOH would work just fine as all it needs is some jerk to free that ;nose-in-rock-back; pattern magazine lock and it's good to go.


BUT again militaries operating firearms with such magazine locking methods are often trained to handle it effectively by *ahem* pouring hot water on such critical parts to free them from frost-jams
1602530971853.png
 

ManhattanProject

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AR platform both DI and GP need regular cleaning but GP are much better as there is almost no gas running back.

Sig 716 DI is cheaper than Ak 203 price quoted to IA. That's why Caracal despite having a better caracal 816 GP offering couldn't match the price and lost. Sig wasn't a bad choice but not the best one either.

Regarding AKs reliability ruggedness well no one can question that.
that is pure hogwash
there is a series of videos, watch em if you like
 

GunDeGunday

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Nope AR worked here not because of improvised DI gas system but because it's well sealed system compared to AK which has got bigger opening on its ejection port as well as that big slot on its top cover or upper section due to reciprocating charging handle.
Baba ji ki jai!

I'm aware of what you're saying baba ji and I've watched all of InRange and Forgotten Weapons including the Galil ACE :)

I was just adding the psuedo-DI and AK mud comparisons a counterpoint to the next post which said DI type AR wouldn't work in Indian conditions. But he later clarified he meant that they're high maintenance.
 

ManhattanProject

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Damn just look at the build quality. A clean as fuck design, even brand new insas seem like they have been painted with colours used for painiting doors.
machined aluminium vs stamped steel.
the thing is ar15 patents are in public domain now, anyone can make one if they have a cnc machine but the ofb is too incompetent. Even the pakistani ordinance factories are make a ar15 clone.
 

Killbot

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machined aluminium vs stamped steel.
the thing is ar15 patents are in public domain now, anyone can make one if they have a cnc machine but the ofb is too incompetent. Even the pakistani ordinance factories are make a ar15 clone.
And anodizing for finish. Makes it look sexy as hell.
 

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