Indian Army SIG Sauer 716 assault rifle.

[Lonewarrior]

Spot on!

I was debating with myself if i should bother with correcting the vast false narrative on the AR platform and the INSAS. Ended up telling myself it was not worth it.
Danke

Even I feel like why bother explaining someone something writing a long message when the response would be something in line of "Not true", "False", "Brochure knowledge"...

 

[Hari Sud]

Counter them, add your argument for each point instead of just saying "worthless points" and running away from it...obviously if you can

‘A very good non descriptive summary posted a day earlier by me describes everything I wished to say. It does not need point by point explanation or counter arguments.

 

[Lonewarrior]

‘A very good non descriptive summary posted a day earlier by me describes everything I wished to say. It does not need point by point explanation or counter arguments.

Why you act like some Indian soap-opera Jethani Dude?
"Mujhe jo bolna tha maine bol diya, ab main nahi bolne waali"

If you have any valid point to counter my argument then post it otherwise continue with your pRiVaTiSe DrDo shenanigans. That's your field of expertise

 

[Hari Sud]

Why you act like some Indian soap-opera Jethani Dude?
"Mujhe jo bolna tha maine bol diya, ab main nahi bolne waali"

If you have any valid point to counter my argument then post it otherwise continue with your pRiVaTiSe DrDo shenanigans. That's your field of expertise

I am your grandfather’s age. Calling me dude is unpleasant to see. So I refuse to have a debate with you on any subject.

Why you act like some Indian soap-opera Jethani Dude?
"Mujhe jo bolna tha maine bol diya, ab main nahi bolne waali"

If you have any valid point to counter my argument then post it otherwise continue with your pRiVaTiSe DrDo shenanigans. That's your field of

 

[Lonewarrior]

I am your grandfather’s age.

जाति न पूछो साधू की पूछ लीजिए ज्ञान ।
मोल करो तलवार को पडा रहन दो म्यान ॥

 

[ManhattanProject]

Okay...that's quite a lot to unpack. Let's go bit by bit.

1. M16 Vs INSAS
Just saying that M16 had problems and INSAS have problems so they're same would be quite superficial analysis, you'll need to consider the nuances. Let's start with M16
> For you IMR 4475 and WC 846 maybe random combination of letters - numbers but this was more or less the whole problem with M16 in Vietnam. M16 was developed to work with a certain composition of gunpowder called "IMR 4475". But during deployment US Army decided to issue cartridges with another composition "WC 846" as a cost cutting measure. This new cartridge had a completely different pressure curve, was slightly higher pressure and caused increased corrosion...basically it's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and wishing it works.
(Memorize this issue in M16 because of powder change, it'll come back to haunt you in the later part of this long a** article of mine)
> Marketing by ArmaLite hyped M16 to be a "self-cleaning" rifle and issued no cleaning kit with it as opposed to the long standing practice of adding a trapdoor in the wooden buttstock of rifles for cleaning kit. M16 maybe self-cleaning in hot - dry weather of Aberdeen Proving Ground but in warm - wet jungle of Vietnam it needed regular maintenance.
> US Army suddenly decided to skip what it had done on most of its previous rifles as a cost cutting measure; chrome plating. This when met the corrosive ammunition and wet conditions of Vietnam proved to be the last nail in the coffin.
Now come to problems with INSAS
> Unexplained jamming despite maintanence (the Nepal incident)
> Magazine was too fragile. So were the plastic furniture that used to break
> The three rounds burst (3BR) setting would fire in full auto
> Corrosion, paint getting chipped off, flimsy stamped parts, phosphate coating not Mil-Spec.

What do you find common the all the problems of each rifle?
It's the fact that all three issues of M16 were a management f-up. As compared to INSAS where some were design issues and most were bad QC.
So saying that M16 had issues and INSAS had them too, so there's same is not a correct assessment.

2. US soldiers used to drop their M16 and pick-up enemy AK47s
Now this is something that comes up quite a lot and the fun fact is it's a pure myth/urban legend/propaganda. I'll counter each point
> "US troops preferred AK47 to their rifles" True, they did. But there's a slight problem in this propaganda, US troops preferred AK47 to their M14s before seeing/getting M16s. AK47s were lighter, shorter, easier to shoot and had 10 more rounds compared to M14s.
> "VietCong never picked M16s from fallen soldiers" Again true, but the question is what are they going to do with that M16 after they had expended 30rd of ammunition? From where are the going to procure 5.56x45mm ammo to feed those M16s?
> "Even elite US SpecOps troops used AK47s instead of M16s" Also true. Fun fact : SEALs still maintain a huge cache of AK47s and PKMs. But this is done not because of superiority but simply to blend in with the enemy or to do false flag operations.

3. INSAS replacement
Army wanted to replace INSAS with a single rifle capable of firing multiple calibers; 5.56x45mm, 6.8 SPC and 7.62x39mm. This is what Army wanted and had asked DRDO to develop...no fictional "London Group" of yours, no European manufacturers, nothing...just Army and DRDO; the epitome of Atmanirbhar Bharat if you would like to say.
But soon things started falling one by one; a multi calibre system was deemed complex, 6.8 SPC lost its hype in global markets, it's cost would be high given new tooling...ultimately leading to a back and forth of multiple RFPs and revised RFIs.
And then out of nowhere we decided to order 6,00,000 million AK203 from Russia because they're grumpy of our growing closeness with the West. Our lives were pretty sorted...empty AK47 at close ranges in terrorists and bonk Pakistani army with 120mm mortars on regular basis. This was literally our whole doctrine until Galwan happened and we realised we have nothing to fight in long ranges. So an ad-hoc SIG716s purchase was done.
Again you may ask them why not AR7.62? Simply because even if we ignore all the teething issues with it, an AK47 in 7.62x51mm is never a good idea. A quasi-DI system like AR10 would eat it as breakfast.

4. Problems with SIG716
Remember that issue with M16 because of powder change? Well it's time to discuss it again.
SIG716s were used to work with 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition but we on the other hand used (use even today) a hotter round of 7.62x51mm because the only weapon we had in that caliber was FN MAG; a solid metal chunk of an MMG. So when we used that ammo in SIGs the predictable happened; it started to jam and the recoil was harsh.
So eventually we changed our tooling to started making NATO spec ammunition and after that all the problems with SIGs are pretty much sorted.

As for not ordering the second batch, it's more of a recent "ban all laptop" issue than a technical one.

I know you won't read all these, so here's a concise version of everything just for you
> INSAS was a s*it design, s*itly made rifle that's why it's getting replaced
> INSAS was very much perfect by things like Kalantak or Ishapore Carbine
> If army really needed an AK then we already had TAR; tested by army and in service with CAPFs
> Indian Gov decided to buy AKs to please Russia, as a result 0.6 million AK203 got shoved down Army's throat ending all dreams of getting a good rifle

i disagree about Insas being a shitty design, when it was first developed it was pretty ambitious. I firmly believe if we had modified the rifle properly it would have made a decent rifle for the average joe in the Army, certainly matching and exceeding the AKs we are buying from Russia.

 

[Hari Sud]

जाति न पूछो साधू की पूछ लीजिए ज्ञान ।
मोल करो तलवार को पडा रहन दो म्यान ॥

‘Get lost……

 

[Marliii]

‘Get lost……

You post blatant misinfo and loony theories and when the guy corrected you this is your response?

 

[Lonewarrior]

Kannot agree more on 2 of the 3 points of your Saar

I firmly believe if we had modified the rifle properly it would have made a decent rifle for the average joe in the Army

Kalantak or Ishapore Carbine

Not just if we had modified but rather we actually had modified INSAS in the form of all the later variants; 1C, Kalantak and all

Just add a few after market components and you'd have a platform better than even AK203 (5.56x45mm is ballistically superior to 7.62x39mm, INSAS solves one of the biggest issues of AK platform; reciprocating charging handle)

certainly matching and exceeding the AKs we are buying from Russia.

TAR

Yup, same goes for a 7.62x39mm assault rifle. TAR is based on AR-M1, perhaps the best milled receiver AK variant currently available

i disagree about Insas being a shitty design, when it was first developed it was pretty ambitious.

Now this one is where I'd like to disagree a bit. Certainly INSAS was ambitious as a very first rifle but there were some bad design choices if you start digging deep
> We were not bound by any restriction to use a certain mag; we neither used STANAG nor AK pattern magazine so we could have chosen anything. But to make things even more favourable we decided to develop a new magazine from scratch, great...but why we skip bolt catch? Especially when we had been using it on our FALs for decades.
> Again from FAL; why not short stroke gas piston? At that point we had absolutely zero experience with AKs and long stroke gas piston but on the other hand we had been making our own FALs...still we chose to go with long stroke.
> Maximum design of INSAS was copied from FNC/CAL still we chose to ignore one of the best feature of it; the STANAG msg

 

[Lonewarrior]

You post blatant misinfo and loony theories and when the guy corrected you this is your response?

Arrree, leave it na Bhaiya
My grandpa is bit cranky today

 

[binayak95]

I am your grandfather’s age. Calling me dude is unpleasant to see. So I refuse to have a debate with you on any subject.

The "i am extremely venerable" so everything that i say is naught but the distilled truth of the heavens doesnt sell here.
Especially when you post blatant lies about the AR15 design, the evolution of it through the Nam era and the explosion of R&D in the platform in the GWOT era.
And then there's the INSAS. Which has more or less stagnated as the HM Ambassador of Indian rifles. Pretty antiquated and horrifying but we are fond of it because it supposedly Indian.

Its not really Indian to begin with.

 

[Blademaster]

You post blatant misinfo and loony theories and when the guy corrected you this is your response?

I find most of his theories to be on the mark and insightful.
Have some respect for an elder.

 

[GLD1980]

Holy shit fellas.... I own the Semi-Auto version of the 716I rifle and it isn't that bad. I would of took this rifle to Africa, Iraq or Afghanistan and been just fine. I get it, your in really cold Himalayan Peaks, but to hear some of you complain about trivial shit like handguard covers and recoil makes me wonder, if you're really Infantryman or if the posters are just stirring shit. Also does the Indian Army conduct weapons maintenance?

I seriously don't think your neighbors shooting at you from the North in China would be caught on an open source forum complaining about cold hands and recoil management? This is not a good look for Soldiers.

Fellas, IMO some of you need to toughen the fuck up! A World War is possibly on the horizon not just a simple border dispute between neighbors.

 

[GLD1980]

Also... The 716I is not a CQB weapon even though it can be utilized as such and if your MoD or Army Brass is fielding it as such well make do. Complaining about less ammo just means your not strong enough to carry more.

 

[GLD1980]

With all due respect fellas, if you're upset you should probably suck it up or find a new line of work! We are expected to be men, not cowards and the last time I checked, feelings didn't win Battles, Wars or firefights! So while some of you are complaining over what rifle you want, or what rifle you're going to get, or your hands being too cold, or the recoil being too hard, honestly sounds like a bunch of shit excuses to me! The Chinese are training to Kill you, US, and the rest of our allies without remorse...

Russian Infantry had to share a bolt action rifle in WWII on the Eastern Front, the entire Middle East and Africa currently has children killing grown men with beat to shit AK's or older shit weapons and this has been the trend since I've been alive. The US has had its fair share of Military defeats and upsets in a few theaters, all by the hands of ill equipped fighters armed with little more than a heart to fight, that didn't stop our enemies and they don't complain or quit. They all look forward to an American KIA but they can go fuck themselves! Stop fretting over the weapons and focus on the fight.

What are you guys even going to use anyway? What will replace your 716I?

Some of you may find this all entertaining or funny but I am not laughing and the world is not laughing. Your MoD basically fucked up the largest modern order of AR-308/AR-10’s the World as ever seen. The more embarrassing part is your MoD wants to blame SIG or the 716I which is total bullshit and all of you know it. The guns aren't the problem so it's either the shooter or the factory ammo and your leaders definitely don't understand how to distribute these effectively along with AK's and other weapons. Yet some of you seem to want to either compare or complain about how Kenya or who ever in Africa has FN SCAR's. If you can't even afford quality ammo or reliable optics for the 716I, do you think your GDP can afford to field SCARs SMH?

Is it to much to ask for Soldiers to just shut the fuck up and want to kill their enemies? Your enemies want to Kill you! From an Infantry standpoint, maybe you guys should start lifting more weights or something. I expected better from my Indian brothers and I sincerely hope this isn't the standard.

Look at the US military right now... All our technology and fighting might, but we're being eaten alive by woke liberal politics and policies. We are turning into an Army of technologically advanced cowards because they've pushed all the men out or jailed us. If we don't get it together, our Empire will fall just like the others throughout history...

So you fellas need to wake up because if you think shit is bad in the world now, imagine how fucked up it will be if things get worse, much much worse.

 

[Bleh]

What's this guy ranting about?.. anyone figured it out ?

 

[Love Charger]

With all due respect fellas, if you're upset you should probably suck it up or find a new line of work! We are expected to be men, not cowards and the last time I checked, feelings didn't win Battles, Wars or firefights! So while some of you are complaining over what rifle you want, or what rifle you're going to get, or your hands being too cold, or the recoil being too hard, honestly sounds like a bunch of shit excuses to me! The Chinese are training to Kill you, US, and the rest of our allies without remorse...

Russian Infantry had to share a bolt action rifle in WWII on the Eastern Front, the entire Middle East and Africa currently has children killing grown men with beat to shit AK's or older shit weapons and this has been the trend since I've been alive. The US has had its fair share of Military defeats and upsets in a few theaters, all by the hands of ill equipped fighters armed with little more than a heart to fight, that didn't stop our enemies and they don't complain or quit. They all look forward to an American KIA but they can go fuck themselves! Stop fretting over the weapons and focus on the fight.

What are you guys even going to use anyway? What will replace your 716I?

Some of you may find this all entertaining or funny but I am not laughing and the world is not laughing. Your MoD basically fucked up the largest modern order of AR-308/AR-10’s the World as ever seen. The more embarrassing part is your MoD wants to blame SIG or the 716I which is total bullshit and all of you know it. The guns aren't the problem so it's either the shooter or the factory ammo and your leaders definitely don't understand how to distribute these effectively along with AK's and other weapons. Yet some of you seem to want to either compare or complain about how Kenya or who ever in Africa has FN SCAR's. If you can't even afford quality ammo or reliable optics for the 716I, do you think your GDP can afford to field SCARs SMH?

Is it to much to ask for Soldiers to just shut the fuck up and want to kill their enemies? Your enemies want to Kill you! From an Infantry standpoint, maybe you guys should start lifting more weights or something. I expected better from my Indian brothers and I sincerely hope this isn't the standard.

Look at the US military right now... All our technology and fighting might, but we're being eaten alive by woke liberal politics and policies. We are turning into an Army of technologically advanced cowards because they've pushed all the men out or jailed us. If we don't get it together, our Empire will fall just like the others throughout history...

So you fellas need to wake up because if you think shit is bad in the world now, imagine how fucked up it will be if things get worse, much much worse.

Look sir , with due respect I must clarify that there is a great amount misunderstanding here. , no one I repeay no one is a soldier here , except you probably.
We are not soldiers , almost none of whatever complaints you said are from army guys, they have said nothing about Sig .
It's just folks here making their own opinion.
As for capability and physical strength of our men , they maintain a permanent deployment at 18, 875 feet at Siachen glaciers, of not few but probably a division level deployment and they carry 105 mm artillery guns piece by piece and reassemble it at there .
They have done so since 1980s and before that .
India china border is at 11,000 feet .
The original standard armament of Indian army was 7.62 ×51 mm FN FAL gun .
And that is just one facet in glorious history of our armed forces from British era to present day.
I still do not understand what made you angry?

 

[Johny_Baba]

What's this guy ranting about?.. anyone figured it out ?

he is pissed because he's an amreeki, and an actual soldier and a forum member here @hammer head had certain criticism over SIG716I, an amreeki product

and he is further ranting because i left two angry emojis under his last posts where he's now blaming it on our men with arms

 

[OutForVendetta]

With all due respect fellas, if you're upset you should probably suck it up or find a new line of work! We are expected to be men, not cowards and the last time I checked, feelings didn't win Battles, Wars or firefights! So while some of you are complaining over what rifle you want, or what rifle you're going to get, or your hands being too cold, or the recoil being too hard, honestly sounds like a bunch of shit excuses to me! The Chinese are training to Kill you, US, and the rest of our allies without remorse...

Russian Infantry had to share a bolt action rifle in WWII on the Eastern Front, the entire Middle East and Africa currently has children killing grown men with beat to shit AK's or older shit weapons and this has been the trend since I've been alive. The US has had its fair share of Military defeats and upsets in a few theaters, all by the hands of ill equipped fighters armed with little more than a heart to fight, that didn't stop our enemies and they don't complain or quit. They all look forward to an American KIA but they can go fuck themselves! Stop fretting over the weapons and focus on the fight.

What are you guys even going to use anyway? What will replace your 716I?

Some of you may find this all entertaining or funny but I am not laughing and the world is not laughing. Your MoD basically fucked up the largest modern order of AR-308/AR-10’s the World as ever seen. The more embarrassing part is your MoD wants to blame SIG or the 716I which is total bullshit and all of you know it. The guns aren't the problem so it's either the shooter or the factory ammo and your leaders definitely don't understand how to distribute these effectively along with AK's and other weapons. Yet some of you seem to want to either compare or complain about how Kenya or who ever in Africa has FN SCAR's. If you can't even afford quality ammo or reliable optics for the 716I, do you think your GDP can afford to field SCARs SMH?

Is it to much to ask for Soldiers to just shut the fuck up and want to kill their enemies? Your enemies want to Kill you! From an Infantry standpoint, maybe you guys should start lifting more weights or something. I expected better from my Indian brothers and I sincerely hope this isn't the standa

With all due respect fellas, if you're upset you should probably suck it up or find a new line of work! We are expected to be men, not cowards and the last time I checked, feelings didn't win Battles, Wars or firefights! So while some of you are complaining over what rifle you want, or what rifle you're going to get, or your hands being too cold, or the recoil being too hard, honestly sounds like a bunch of shit excuses to me! The Chinese are training to Kill you, US, and the rest of our allies without remorse...

Russian Infantry had to share a bolt action rifle in WWII on the Eastern Front, the entire Middle East and Africa currently has children killing grown men with beat to shit AK's or older shit weapons and this has been the trend since I've been alive. The US has had its fair share of Military defeats and upsets in a few theaters, all by the hands of ill equipped fighters armed with little more than a heart to fight, that didn't stop our enemies and they don't complain or quit. They all look forward to an American KIA but they can go fuck themselves! Stop fretting over the weapons and focus on the fight.

What are you guys even going to use anyway? What will replace your 716I?

Some of you may find this all entertaining or funny but I am not laughing and the world is not laughing. Your MoD basically fucked up the largest modern order of AR-308/AR-10’s the World as ever seen. The more embarrassing part is your MoD wants to blame SIG or the 716I which is total bullshit and all of you know it. The guns aren't the problem so it's either the shooter or the factory ammo and your leaders definitely don't understand how to distribute these effectively along with AK's and other weapons. Yet some of you seem to want to either compare or complain about how Kenya or who ever in Africa has FN SCAR's. If you can't even afford quality ammo or reliable optics for the 716I, do you think your GDP can afford to field SCARs SMH?

Is it to much to ask for Soldiers to just shut the fuck up and want to kill their enemies? Your enemies want to Kill you! From an Infantry standpoint, maybe you guys should start lifting more weights or something. I expected better from my Indian brothers and I sincerely hope this isn't the standard.

Look at the US military right now... All our technology and fighting might, but we're being eaten alive by woke liberal politics and policies. We are turning into an Army of technologically advanced cowards because they've pushed all the men out or jailed us. If we don't get it together, our Empire will fall just like the others throughout history...

So you fellas need to wake up because if you think shit is bad in the world now, imagine how fucked up it will be if things get worse, much much worse.

Just want to inform you that almost everyone you'll find here are civilians who are weapons enthusiasts, not soldiers. Its really hard to explain the situation to outsiders, but I'll try.

India as you might know has a per capita GDP of about 3k. Most of the non-officer ranks have, from 1947 and continuing to this very day, are filled by folks from rural India, who probably experienced high speed, low cost internet just around 2020 when the company JIO came out with their low priced data sim cards. So most of the Indian army ranks don't even speak fluent English, let alone know there are websites dedicated to talk about their service history. You might've been confused because I know there is a culture in the US where non-officer ranks actively discuss about their service history, this isn't the case in India. Speaking English is still considered a privilege. So most folks here are civilians, tired of the circus that the incompetent politicians and bureaucrats have made of our military industrial complex.

I hope my explanation helps.

Look at the US military right now... All our technology and fighting might, but we're being eaten alive by woke liberal politics and policies. We are turning into an Army of technologically advanced cowards because they've pushed all the men out or jailed us. If we don't get it together, our Empire will fall just like the others throughout history...

So you fellas need to wake up because if you think shit is bad in the world now, imagine how fucked up it will be if things get worse, much much worse.

 

[GLD1980]

My apologies, I understood this as a forum for Indian Military Servicemen of which I have a great deal of respect for, but I was under the impression this was direct Frontline feedback. I apologize for embarrassing myself and being rude. Wrong audience lol. I am not angry I just place a lot of faith in India and what importantance you have in keeping the world a better place. I was merely trying to motivate fellow Soldiers not be rude to the supporting citizens of India. My apologies.