Indian Army Aviation Wing

[pmaitra]

The helicopter is specifically designed for counter-insurgency duties (for use over mountains and thick jungles), police patrolling, para-military surveillance duties and against light armour.

Well It can save u from regular AK round but a hit on turbine or the important places like tail roter, Its survival chance are less..

7.62nato or Russian rounds can damage it..

...

It Simple Shows IA`s need for a Gunship..

My thoughts exactly.

One question: Does the HAL ALH perform better than these Cheetahs when it comes to troop transport in high altitudes, keeping in mind the number of persons each one of them can carry? Note, I am speaking purely from the transport perspective.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My thoughts exactly.

One question: Does the HAL ALH perform better than these Cheetahs when it comes to troop transport in high altitudes, keeping in mind the number of persons each one of them can carry? Note, I am speaking purely from the transport perspective.

Both Helos have their own advantages, Cheetah is lighter and good for patrol, ALH is better for search and rescue as well as better in troop transportation..

Cannot comment abt men`s gear but its depends on altitude, though i do know a lost patrol of 6 men were rescued over High altitude 4 years back..

 

[black eagle]

i think we should call it expansion of army aviation corps and not raising of small "air force" because the latter might hurt the iaf ego.also the iaf must raise a small"army" or "armoured corps" with the induction of a large no. of arjun mbt,155mm denel sph,towed howitzers,mbrl-pinaka etc.most of these highly important battlewining assets have been rejected by army in favour of inferior foreign ones so these will be a good back up option in case the army fails in the 2 front war

IAF operating tanks & MLRS!!!! That's kind of a revolting thought. It's no way required.

 

[tanker12]

Tanks for the Air force!This hurra for indegineous stuff should be balanced with some basic knowledge .Denel is south african, towed guns not even on the drdo drawing boards,pinaka already in service etc.Please dont go haywire by reading other forums where stupid remarks are encouraged for trp .

I feel that the question at hand is should the Army have a direct role in planning and execution of CAS as brought by some members? Does low intensity conflicts require CAS? No way will the govt allow CAS in the hinderland when CAS in Jand K has been a no no.This is the right approach as a friendly fire casualties can swing away public symphaty and airstrikes are fraught with such mistakes.See Afghanistan and swat operations.

Well equipped and trained infantry soldiers be it Army or the para military can tackle the situation with out CAS .Cas evac should be allowed by air resources and also recce UAVs.Ultimately, it the boots on the ground which will win the war.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I feel that the question at hand is should the Army have a direct role in planning and execution of CAS as brought by some members? Does low intensity conflicts require CAS? No way will the govt allow CAS in the hinder land when CAS in J and K has been a no no.This is the right approach as a friendly fire casualties can swing away public symphaty and airstrikes are fraught with such mistakes.See Afghanistan and swat operations.

Well equipped and trained infantry soldiers be it Army or the para military can tackle the situation with out CAS .Cas evac should be allowed by air resources and also recce UAVs.Ultimately, it the boots on the ground which will win the war.

We are already using CAS in J & K Via MI-17s and Lancers, But are u referring using CAS against tangos in Urban which are tend to happen in SWAT & Astan ?

Friendly fire happens in War, Their is little one can do, Now Its IAF or IA avation, Very Unfortunate..

We do not work like that anymore, During any major operation over J&K MI-17s provide surveillance and fire-support if needed previously its done by Chetaks..

IA need for major CAS fighters required back in Srilanka and Kargil, Few as three squadrons of Jet and Turboprops will do..

 

[sandeepdg]

The helicopter is specifically designed for counter-insurgency duties (for use over mountains and thick jungles), police patrolling, para-military surveillance duties and against light armour.

Well It can save u from regular AK round but a hit on turbine or the important places like tail roter, Its survival chance are less..

7.62nato or Russian rounds can damage it..

It Simple Shows IA`s need for a Gunship..

This is a bare bones platform ! At least the IAF could have taken the weaponization of the AH-64J as a model for the Cheetahs. It should have had rocket pods at least.

 

[joe81]

Many ask question Why IA need its own small Air-force, The simple answer is long chain of command, A order getting sanctioned takes Hours to days..
Where a Field commander loses men and machine also the ground..

Well, the question is whether IA should spend millions of $ on procuring Airplanes/Helicopter which IAF already has or should we spend no money (but little time) to correct the process where the decision making is getting delayed (between IA and IAF). Why spend resources inventing the same wheel when we could obtain the same result by enforcing proper decision making structure.

The situation where we can draw parallel is in the Intelligence department. The millitary has its own intelligence wing apart RAW and IB. Does having a intelligence wing in the millitary solve all the problems related to Intelligence ( Answer - NO - Kargil is an example). But if all the intelligence wing is brought under one umbrella (as its supposed to be happening now), then things will be different.

I think Stratergic unfied Command could be an answer to this problem (IA and IAF not responding when the need arises)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well, the question is whether IA should spend millions of $ on procuring Airplanes/Helicopter which IAF already has or should we spend no money (but little time) to correct the process where the decision making is getting delayed (between IA and IAF). Why spend resources inventing the same wheel when we could obtain the same result by enforcing proper decision making structure.

The Problem is Indeed Lies in the Structure but that is like that only coz u have to see that the whole operation is based on requests by one to another command It takes time no matter how much u improve it, Its not flexible at all..

Its Easy to operate a force without anyone intervention or dependency under a single command, And battle field is better know by Field Commanders on ground..

Besides IA specifications are different from IAF in terms of CAS..

The situation where we can draw parallel is in the Intelligence department. The millitary has its own intelligence wing apart RAW and IB. Does having a intelligence wing in the millitary solve all the problems related to Intelligence ( Answer - NO - Kargil is an example).

Kargil`s early warnings are given by Army Intel, It was gud back then and still now coz civilians report to us first on the ground, The failure was because of many facts ( O.T )..

Intelligence Rivalry`s are well known, But it have nothing similar with IAF & IA, Dont compare the relations of IA & IAF with others, The two branches are very much together..

 

[ace009]

In my opinion, IA should have some basic CAS capabilities, especially for short conflicts and anti-insurgency operations. Squadrons of anti-infantry Helis, anti-armor Helis and maybe even a couple of squadron of anti-arti fixed wing aircrafts. (modified Trainers seem fine). For anything heavier/ more sophisticated or for larger battles IA should take IAF help.

 

[tanker12]

CAS or suppressive fire is the question.Attack or armed helicopters? Our use of helicopters I feel have been more of cas evac and odd survellance flights.vis a vis full fledged CAS by the PAF in swat ops.Makes good propoganda masala.Use of airpower against own people.No govt would risk that.See what happen when Mubark send in his fighters to fly over Cairo or for matter in Libya.The world erupts and western world starts frothing from their mouths.
For me CAS only during full fledged war and let the IAF handle it.The attack copters could be army asset to be used in anti tank role or in supressive tasks.Any way the army is/will be taking over the armed dhruv soon as I feel they have decided to go in for the dhruv in a big way as against the IAF/IN.A hurra for the desi chanters.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

For me CAS only during full fledged war and let the IAF handle it.The attack copters could be army asset to be used in anti tank role or in supressive tasks.Any way the army is/will be taking over the armed dhruv soon as I feel they have decided to go in for the dhruv in a big way as against the IAF/IN.A hurra for the desi chanters.

The main Goal of IA CAS wing is to provide CAS for troops in low reaction time, Under the command of Field commander now that can be a LT too, This CAS wing is always avaliable to IA at any time..

Where IAF too deploy CAS for troops where IA CAS wing Cannot provide CAS, This CAS wing of IA will reduce the burden of IAF and it will help them to concentrate on their own war strategy eg: SEAD operations, Strategic bombing, Airsuperiorty, PGM strikes, CAP missions and transport,etc..


IAF is also using ALH and targeted to replace all other Light helos with ALH so does the navy..
So call Desi Maal is the solution for our Armed forces, As we know now, Over long term wars, import is not the answer to our problems anymore..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[ace009]

What plane is that? Some turbo-prop plane from Argentina?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What plane is that? Some turbo-prop plane from Argentina?

That`s FMA IA 58 Pucará..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_58_Pucar%C3%A1


Turbo-Props are my fav

It fits our needs with Jets, Jets are for High altitude and Turbo-props are for regular CAS over other terrains..
Turbo-props have lots of advantages compare to Jets also in some ways than Helos..

1. They can be used from Unprepared runways

2. Short landing and take off..

3. Extremely low maintenance..

4. Less fuel consumption, operational cost is low..

5 Ability to drop PGMs, and variety of ordnance..

6. Its easily manufactured compare to other machines and unit price is low..

Super Tucano

FMA IA 58 Pucará

U can see more here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=14807&page=1

 

[sandeepdg]

^ Kunal, I like both these birds, but they can brought down easily even by hostile small arms fire, forget heavier anti-air guns. Just see the instances in which the Argentinian Pucaras were shot down by the British, they should have a better armor plating and should have good missile jammers which they don't currently.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

^ Kunal, I like both these birds,

but they can brought down easily even by hostile small arms fire, forget heavier anti-air guns.

Just see the instances in which the Argentinian Pucaras were shot down by the British, they should have a better armor plating and should have good missile jammers which they don't currently.

Turbo Props are very much armored, In one instance a turbo-prop was hit by 200rnd of small arm ( all kinds of caliber ) fire and returned to base safely, Al it should be noted IR signature on a turbo-prop is lesser than a regular Helo used for CAS also turbo-props are faster..

Turboprops are also hard to shoot down. Air Tractor, another firm that makes cropdusters, branched out into warplanes last year. One reason was that a fleet of 16 unarmed versions of its aircraft had been used by America's State Department to dust South American drug plantations with herbicide—an activity that tends to provoke a hostile response from the ground. Despite the planes' having been hit by more than 200 rounds, though, neither an aircraft nor a pilot has been lost.

http://www.economist.com/node/17079443

The 802U can loiter quietly more than 10 hours
while carrying more than a ton of weapons.
It commands a level of situational awareness
that unmanned aircraft, with "soda straw"
sensor views, simply cannot match.

The aircraft's speed and maneuverability exceeds that
of most helicopters, UAVs and cargo aircraft. There's
no need to fly supersonic to hot zones when the 802U
can be overhead providing quiet surveillance and the
deterrent of over 2,900 rounds of .50 cal, four Hellfire
missiles, sixteen DAGR laser guided rockets, and two
250 lb. laser-guided bombs.

Give a read, Very Interesting:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16228033/Air-Tractor-At802u-Brochure


AirTractor delivers UAE's first AT-802Us :
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-airtractor-delivers-uaes-first-at-802us.html


"Pucara`are one of the best turbo-props in the world, Its enough armored specially over fuel tanks, Crew cabin, other important places, Only one was shot down by small arm fire ( 50CAL ) while dropping nap-ham at low altitude ( 25m or less ),"

From my view any helo doing the same or Jet would also meet with the same fate..

 

[sandeepdg]

^ Yeah, this one is a gem. I think its better than the Pucara, since it can be operated in unmanned mode too. In counter insurgency warfare, and other such missions they are perfect. But in armed combat, I think they still need an effective missile jammer, since the real threat in a battle scenario will be from MANPADs and not machine gun fire.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

^ Yeah, this one is a gem. I think its better than the Pucara, since it can be operated in unmanned mode too. In counter insurgency warfare, and other such missions they are perfect. But in armed combat, I think they still need an effective missile jammer, since the real threat in a battle scenario will be from MANPADs and not machine gun fire.

Unmanned is four time Expensive and UACV is not yet matured, AURA will be finish in 2030-50..

Unmanned Drawback is its expensive and needs more than crew of 20 to operate ( Excluding traffic controllers )

Its not Matured enough to be included in our CAS program..





Pucara is better for our needs, but tractor and Tucano will do too..

The reason why i like Pucara coz:

1. More payload..

2. Better survivability coz of two engines..

3. Better ceiling..

The use in CAS will be precision strikes with Laser guided bombs, and Starfing runs on enemy over open areas ( Without AD cover )..
MANPADs are IR guided not radar, In Kargil IAF lost MIG-21 coz of MANPADS, The solution was cheap Flare launchers..

The solution is same for any-other Aircraft including Turbo-props..


Regarding Radar guided SAMs, Its IAF job to clean the area via SEAD missions, Once the area is secured IA CAS wing can operate freely..

Radar Guided SAM are big System and need Survallence radar also engagement radar, IAF Su-30mki and MIG-27 are dedicated for this role..

IA CAS wing job is to speed up Infantry & Armored Advance, Its primary use is to neutralize Infantry fortification and Armour vehicles in open..


Besides i am counting on HAL Htt-40, Or indigenous capability, If not we can always look at Brazil..

 

[ace009]

I found two other aircrafts that might fit the bill ...

The planned OV-10X from Boeing ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-10_Bronco

And the existing Saab 105

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_105

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I found two other aircrafts that might fit the bill ...

The planned OV-10X from Boeing ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-10_Bronco

And the existing Saab 105

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_105

Excellent Choice..

OV-10 is active and Exported

SAAB 105 is good and have similar capability as HAL-36 & HAWK..


Indian Army Should keep a eye on Indigenous Aircraft too like..


HTT-40 Turbo-Prop

HAL-36 SITARA