Indian Army Artillery

[bengalraider]

Ques-Can we wait for DRDO to develop our artillery?
Ans- Will the Enemy wait for DRDO to develop our artillery!

Our army needs guns hell it needed them yesterday, I have no problems if the DRDO wants to develop and indigenous "death star ", however i do have serous problems with the shoddy way our brothers on the borders are being short changed.we should buy at least 400 new guns off the shelf while we wait for DRDO to get it's act together to do anything else is both criminally irresponsible and stupid!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ques-Can we wait for DRDO to develop our artillery?
Ans- Will the Enemy wait for DRDO to develop our artillery!

Our army needs guns hell it needed them yesterday, I have no problems if the DRDO wants to develop and indigenous "death star ", however i do have serous problems with the shoddy way our brothers on the borders are being short changed.we should buy at least 400 new guns off the shelf while we wait for DRDO to get it's act together to do anything else is both criminally irresponsible and stupid!

We have waited for foreign guns since 80s, still we dont have it..
And i don't believe the same practice will be successful in future but it will again fail and we have to use vintage guns of 70s-80s!
If Army pushed the DRDO back in 2007 we may have seen them in operational status by now..
The gun is ready on papers..
Rest is clear!

 

[EagleOne]

BAE-Bofors FH77-B05-L52 towed gun in Leh, Jammu & Kashmir.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Ques-Can we wait for DRDO to develop our artillery?
Ans- Will the Enemy wait for DRDO to develop our artillery!

Our army needs guns hell it needed them yesterday, I have no problems if the DRDO wants to develop and indigenous "death star ", however i do have serous problems with the shoddy way our brothers on the borders are being short changed.we should buy at least 400 new guns off the shelf while we wait for DRDO to get it's act together to do anything else is both criminally irresponsible and stupid!

Same as Kunal Sir. Can anyone guarantee these guns will be acquired this time? How much time it will take from RFI to RFP to finalizing technical data to selecting lowest bidder to settling the cost of acquisition to guns getting delivered? Going by the trend, it will take no less than a year and half if everything goes exceptionally well. But what if they don't? And what if this tender too gets cancelled? Will not we come where we were?

3-5 years is the time Army should keep patience and in meantime deploy her artillery specialists at ARDE. This should be done so that when Gun rolls out Army doesn't see any problem in highly technical systems of this howitzer which is/are comparable to 'Carrying Handle' of INSAS IAR about which they had complained when INSAS IAR went into her soldiers hand.

 

[neo29]

How irresponsible cant he establishment be? Purchasing all defence needs but opting to delay the most basic and essential artillery need for the India Army that is starved for years.

Have these people forgotten that it was artillery that helped us during Kargil war to provide cover. Seems that they are relaxed that the old guns will do the job when time comes and hence afford delays in artillery acquisitions.

 

[ppgj]

@kunal sir,

it was long decided all of india's M-46 guns of 130mm caliber will be upgraded to 155 mm. Soltam was the partner in that. i remember they did upgrades for the 180 guns but due to one or two barrel bursting and less than advertised range - the deal got stuck.

defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, at a Parliamentary session in December 2004, stated that the modernisation contract for 180 guns signed in March 2000 was worth $47,524,137. A MoD press release, dated 29 November 2001, stated that upgrade began at the Gun Carriage Factory in Jabalpur with 180 kits supplied from Israel. Jane's Defence Weekly reported in March 2005, that 36 guns had so far been upgraded to equip two artillery regiments.

The project was suspended by the MoD in mid-2002, because of quality problems. Indian Artillery gunners stated that the upgraded guns could not hit their claimed targets of 40 km, as expected and was considerably less than what had been stated by Soltam. This was indeed surprising, as during demonstration trials by Soltam at Pokhran, Rajasthan in 1997-98, one M-46 field howitzer upgraded to the 155mm/45-calibre standard was successfully test-fired using extended range base-bleed ammunition out to a range of 39 km.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Equipment/Artillery/353-155mm-M-46-Howitzer.html

parallely OFB which was creating it's own 155mm upgrade package which was supposed to upgrade the rest of the M-46 guns. i quote OFB link here -

155mm 45 calibre upgunning kit MK-III

n Objective:

§ To upgrade the 130mm M-46 gun at minimum cost with NATO standard 155mm/45 calibre gun.

n Status:

– Development of 130/155mm45 calibre barrel with vaned slot muzzle brake completed.

– First phase of technical cum user trial revealed satisfactory performance of ordnance. Certain modifications recommended by trial team for castor wheels and jacks.

– Modifications completed and user trial requested for resumption with ahq

– Installation of inertial navigation based fire control system planned.

Development of vaned slot muzzle brake

n Objective: to develop a futuristic design of muzzle brake suitable for towed and self propelled howitzer

n Salient features:

– Continuous guidance to the projectile leading to increase in muzzle velocity

– High efficiency ,low blast and flash signatures.

– Rapid discharge of burnt propellant gases to reduce the exposure of crew to fumes during opening of breech after firing of a round.

– Low aerodnamic jump improves the accuracy of the gun

n Status:

– Vaned slot muzzle brake integrated to 155mm/45 calibre bofors upgradation barrel is under trial.

as one can see user trial was satisfactory and all modifications sought were completed and were under "trials".

also -

Upgradation of 155mm/39 calibre bofors fh77b to 155mm/45 calibre

n Objective:

To upgrade BOFORS FH77B by mounting 155mm45 calibre barrel with vaned slot muzzle brake at minimum cost and with futuristic technology.

n Salient features:

– Increased range to 40km from 29km.

– No upgradation of recoil system and gun super structure required.

– Upgradation of fire control system with inertial navigation system based fire control system for autonomous gun capability.

n Status:

– 155mm/45 calibre BOFORS upgradation equipment is under trial.

this one (as below) is the soltam gun upgrade referred to as "METAMORPHOSIS" gun.

130/155MM 45 Calibre Metamorphosis

This is a lowest cost upgrade of 130mm M46 field gun to 155mm 45 calibre.

CONFIGURATION :

"¢ 155mm 45 cal barrel conforming to NATO standards with vaned slot muzzle brake

"¢ Stub cartridge case obturation.

"¢ Pneumatic ramming

"¢ Upgradation of jacks to castor wheels.

STATUS :

After successful proof in 2002, the equipment was a successful debuetante at idex Abu Dhabi in 2003. The equipment was admitted for technical cum user trial in which the performance of ordnance with vaned slot muzzle brake was found to be satisfactory and the equipment after suggested improvements is ready for further trials.

130/155MM SOLTAM

The prototype barrel has been machined up to finish turning stage. Further production will be planned after receipt of Mechanical Autofrettage Plant and 70 sets of Major Forgings from the OEM.

155MM/ 45 Cal Upgradation

OFC has designed and developed 155mm 45 Calibre ordnance and this is presently under DGQA proof trials. The proof trials are scheduled to be held at PXE Balasore from 20th June 2006 to 30th June 2006.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/units/index.php?unit=ofc&page=my_3&lang=en

also another link with the "METAMORPHOSIS" gun here -

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes...bre-Metamorphosis-artillery-system-India.html

so, if these guns have been satisfactory and were under trials long back (unfortunately the OFB link does not give the dates for OFB guns), then why these trials from the foreign vendors which never ends, with MOD playing spoil sport - with their "blacklist" agenda??

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/11/no-thanks-youre-blacklisted.html

what is the status of the OFB gun which was supposed to upgrade the M-46 Guns??

also what type of "guided" shells are part of the IA artillery??

it is well known how the russian "Krasnopol" guided shells turned out to be "duds" -

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/most-of-krasnopol-ammo-for-bofors-guns-turn-out-duds/17346/0

IA wasted a whole lot of money on these duds. are they still in use?? have the issues with these shells have been sorted out?? it is really ironic how russia gets away easily and repeatedly, and are rewarded with more!!!

the fact that Congress ruled centre will not allow Bofors or Bofors related gun due to "political sensitivities" is very clear from the fact that the trials consistently proved Bofors gun to be superior as proven by this -

An excerpt from a 2007 Indian Army trial report on the 155-mm towed gun trials. It was after this that the infamous re-tendering happened, after four trial rounds.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/glimpse-into-indias-artillery.html

why army never showed interest in the DRDO developed gun inspite of them coming with a proposal to the army is baffling to say the least!!!

The DRDO spokesperson in New Delhi, Ravi Gupta, confirmed to the Business Standard, "The DRDO is very keen to develop 155-mm guns for the army. We had formed a team to work on this more than a decade ago, but the army did not give us a firm requirement then. Now, the army has expressed interest in the 155-mm gun project and preliminary work has already begun."

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/155-mm-gun-contract-drdo-entersfray/402834/

late solace is that at least they are doing now a full 20 years later!!!

IA and MOD have a lot to answer this sorry situation!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@kunal sir,

parallely OFB which was creating it's own 155mm upgrade package which was supposed to upgrade the rest of the M-46 guns. i quote OFB link here -

as one can see user trial was satisfactory and all modifications sought were completed and were under "trials".

@ppgi,
It is the same Soltams 155/45cal upgrade kit`s clone made by OFB, it make the upgrade more cheap, but it was not successful with M-46 nor FH-77 , the only solution is to create a new gun which can hold the new 45cal barrel..

what is the status of the OFB gun which was supposed to upgrade the M-46 Guns??

also what type of "guided" shells are part of the IA artillery??

Presently Army main arty is M46..
"Krasnopol"

the fact that Congress ruled centre will not allow Bofors or Bofors related gun due to "political sensitivities" is very clear from the fact that the trials consistently proved Bofors gun to be superior as proven by this

Fine!
Then Pls get us FH-2000, But again they are blacklisted!
The ONLY-ONLY way is to get DRDO on track..

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

I am in India and met my concat in Army. I was pleasently surpised to know that he is one of the key person to decide on this deal. He is highly ethical and did not divulge much and neither I pressed him. Here is what he told me hope it helps.
1. Army is pissed with Singapore technolgies, the reason they want written garuntee that if the gun passes all parameters we will buy it, and because of which they kept delaying trails.
2. Even in case of single bidder, new RFP will not be used, they will still buy.
3. They already have a understanding that what they will buy, based on what is best for IA.
4. They are positive everything will be final by 2011, means ordering.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

155-mm gun contract: DRDO enters the fray

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/155-mm-gun-contract-drdo-entersfray/402834

how did i miss this very important news, discovering it right now, and i may add it just made my night

atleast i can be rest assured about having these guns inducted with in the coming decade which otherwise would have not happened the way the things are going on and have been going on for the good part of last one decade. i say, oh hell yeah baby, lets do it. way to go drdo, and hey i am loving it. hell man whats a 185mm gun?

 

[prateikf]

nothing is wrong with what singapore technologies wants. how can we expect a foreign firm to spend millions of dollars in bringing and testing their equipment without any guarantees? just because the MOD has plenty of money(taxpayers money) and time to waste it doesnt mean that even stk is the same. the Indian MOD's unprofessional attitude is to blame for this- such as cancelling contracts after they are awarded(helicopter deal), issuing the same RFI every year, blacklisting company's without a reason etc. what did the MOD with the pegasus ULH last year? it blacklisted stk after the pegasus had left for India and did not even communicate this to STK. shame on the MOD.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

Everything is wrong with that, what if 2 companies meet the requirement? Think the same logic for MRCA will be buy 4*126 planes. Also please do not comment on MOD without having information on why these things happen. There are some issue but not everything is wrong as people think.

 

[ppgj]

I am in India and met my concat in Army. I was pleasently surpised to know that he is one of the key person to decide on this deal. He is highly ethical and did not divulge much and neither I pressed him. Here is what he told me hope it helps.

thanks for the info.

1. Army is pissed with Singapore technolgies, the reason they want written garuntee that if the gun passes all parameters we will buy it, and because of which they kept delaying trails.

while "written" guarantee can be doubtful, i wonder what is wrong in STK reasoning. afterall the saga has been on for as long as i remember. besides STK guns are good and are the only other contenders with most "blacklisted"!!

2. Even in case of single bidder, new RFP will not be used, they will still buy.

again i find no fault. when every manufacturer is blacklisted, who is in the fray?? where are the other manufacturers - if any?? and we needed the guns yesterday!!

3. They already have a understanding that what they will buy, based on what is best for IA.

knowing GOI sensitivities and the status of the vendors, IA should have used "their understanding" and approached DRDO atleast 5 years back. by now it would have been in user trials.

4. They are positive everything will be final by 2011, means ordering.

how long IA can wait?? even 2011 is too late.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

Agreed with what you told but fact is fact. I just listed what he told me and trust me there is hardly anyone who knows more than him. Also he maintains secrecy even though he is close to me, he will not tell what the plan is and I am proud of him for that, I did not asked further. As he is doing his job.

 

[prateikf]

there are many contender's for the MRCA deal. but they were just 2 for the towed howitzer deal. The MOD lacks professional attitude. why did not the MOD buy the bofors gun when it had met and even exceeded all the requirements in 2007? why was denel blacklisted on flimsy charges after BHIM had entered production? is mr. antony the defence minister or a servant of madam sonia? his loyalties should lie towards the nation and not towards a particular family. the MOD has caused thousand of crores in losses for the nation by cancelling contracts and retendering. The FMS route from the US is just too expensive.

 

[arya]

well deal will not closed till the date china or Pakistan will attack on India why we are wasting time but on other side china and Pakistan are growing there power and we are wasting time in MMRCA,now in Artillery Projects and delay of ac from Russia


when we guys understand value of time

 

[ppgj]

@ prateikf

The FMS route from the US is just too expensive.

not true.

i guess you are referring to the M777 howitzer. the fact is that they are made from TITANIUM alloys unlike steel in the other guns. they are many times costly and lighter but are worth their price.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...aWEvbK&sig=AHIEtbTWeDe8NvieAvKPjTup0Wy8WAIXUQ

http://www.asminternational.org/emails/enews/amp_pdfs/amp16607p45.pdf

you can compare the weight specs to any other similar lightweight howitzer and you will find the difference.

 

[Yusuf]

FMS means that the supplier will supplier at the same rate as they do to the US armed forces. So it should not be at any cost which is way too high.

 

[nitesh]

isn't Bhim was canceled because of mrs. renuka choudhury creating nuisance for that rather then mr. antony?

 

[arya]

how will army fight if they are lacking in every thing

 

[SHASH2K2]

how will army fight if they are lacking in every thing

Indian army trains its Jawan to act as suicide bombers as well. Our jawans will tie live ammunition to their body and than BOOM BOOM in Enemy territory.
Anyways we Indian's give very little value to human life so let few soldiers die .They will recruit few more .This is benifit of have a very large young population.