Indian Army Artillery

[Rahul Singh]

So i was not only who had seen solution this way. Some quotes from the article i can't resist posting.

The Indian Army must be frankly told that it will receive no 155 mm guns for the next 5-7 years. And a predominantly Indian consortium must be brought together to build an Indian gun within that period.

But India's growing technological capability has given it the capability to take on projects that were unthinkable two decades ago: fourth-generation fighters; advanced warships; even a tank with a gun that has proven to be world class.

India has the skills for building a 155 mm artillery gun; leadership is needed to bring them together. The DRDO, increasingly sophisticated and technologically capable, is yearning to harness the proven manufacturing skills of India's private sector. Global majors like Bharat Forge and L&T are straining at the leash, willing to put in money and muscle into what they have identified as a promising business vertical.

The Pinaka multi-barrelled rocket launcher (MBRL) has already proven how effectively the DRDO can leverage the private sector's manufacturing skills. A state-of-the-art system, with electronics that are superior to even Russian frontline MBRLs, a single Pinaka regiment can obliterate a target 40 kilometers away by pouring down 72 rockets onto it in just 44 seconds.

In the past poor manufacturing practises, especially those of the public sector Ordnance Factory Board, had tarnished the reputation of otherwise well-designed DRDO products like the 5.56 mm INSAS rifle.

The MoD must bring together a public-private consortium, forming a joint venture (JV) --- call it, for now, the Indian Artillery Project (IAP) --- in which the DRDO, the Indian Army, and the prime private sector participants have financial stakes.

The army will understandably resist this project, being desperately short of artillery and wanting guns yesterday. The most crucial component of combat capability, artillery guns --- firing high explosive shells at faraway targets --- have caused three quarters of all battlefield casualties over the last century of wars. But the soldiers will come around, given assurances about delivery within a clear time frame. Their choice is a stark one: continuing trials of foreign guns with no light certain at the end of the tunnel; or an official moratorium of 5-7 years, followed by the simplified procurement processes of indigenous equipment.

 

[EagleOne]

155-mm gun contract: DRDO enters the fray

With the international procurement of the 155-mm towed gun for the Indian Army dogged by controversy and failure, India's Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has made the potentially game-changing decision to jump into the fray. The DRDO's most productive laboratory, the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune, could soon become the hub for developing an indigenous 155-mm towed gun, with the DRDO partnering private industry giants such as Bharat Forge and Larsen & Toubro.

A DRDO project to produce a 155-mm towed gun indigenously would introduce an Indian consortium into a jinxed procurement confined to foreign vendors, many attended by controversy. Today, defence minister A K Antony informed Parliament that the Central Bureau of Investigation had recommended the blacklisting of four companies that had been involved, at various stages of this procurement: Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK); Germany's Rheinmetall; Israel Military Industries (IMI); and another Israeli company, Soltam. Denel, a South African company, had been blacklisted earlier; and the only other gun on offer, the BAE Systems FH-77B-05 howitzer, is a modernised version of the controversial Bofors gun.

In these circumstances, say MoD sources, an indigenous 155-mm gun could be a politically palatable choice. Anil Datar, the ARDE Director, told Business Standard, "Within the DRDO, we are discussing how to develop a 155-mm gun. We can make it, no problem, with the help of Indian industry. A 155mm gun requires high-class manufacturing; we have Bharat Forge and L&T in and around Pune, which are keen to join us."

While the ARDE — the DRDO's facility for developing small arms, guns, howitzers, and rockets — has worked on gun technology earlier, now the army appears to have also concluded that indigenous development might be a faster route than international procurement.

The DRDO spokesperson in New Delhi, Ravi Gupta, confirmed to the Business Standard, "The DRDO is very keen to develop 155-mm guns for the army. We had formed a team to work on this more than a decade ago, but the army did not give us a firm requirement then. Now, the army has expressed interest in the 155-mm gun project and preliminary work has already begun."

The selection of a 155-mm towed gun has dragged on for eight years without result. On Friday, the MoD cancelled army trials of two guns — the Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK) IFH-2000; and the BAE Systems FH-77B-05 — after the CBI's announcement about STK left only the Bofors gun in contention. MoD insiders say it was impossible to select that gun on a single-vendor basis.

The contract, worth an estimated Rs 8,000 crore, envisages buying 400 towed guns off the shelf and building 1,180 in India from transferred technology.

Highlighting the ARDE's experience in guns and artillery systems, Datar says: "The army is currently inducting our Pinaka multi-barrelled rocket launcher, a world-class system. Our 120-mm gun for the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 gun in army trials. In 1972, ARDE developed the 105mm Indian Field Gun (IFG), which was a mainstay of the Army's field artillery. We assisted with up-gunning the army's 130mm gun to 155-mm. And, ARDE produced a heavy 185-mm gun, but that never entered service because the army was not interested then."

Datar claims ARDE — given adequate support from the private sector, and from the DRDO network of 50-odd laboratories — could develop a world-class 155-mm gun within three to three and a half years. The Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, in Hyderabad, would develop special alloys and materials for the gun. Ammunition would be tested at the Proof and Experimental Establishment at Balasore, Orissa. Warheads would be tested at the Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory, Chandigarh.

The ARDE is one of DRDO's star laboratories, having developed over 200 items that are in service with the military today. With just one per cent of DRDO's total budget and five per cent of the DRDO's manpower (1,300 persons, including 220 scientists and 250 technical officers), the ARDE has developed 70 per cent of the equipment that the Ordnance Factories have manufactured for the military.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/155-mm-gun-contract-drdo-entersfray/402834


:angry_6:

 

[prateikf]

why then did the minister issue a tender just a few days back? even he knows that it would fail as there are no companies left to respond. but the main question here is that India would remain a sitting duck till the new guns arrive which is at best 8 years away.

"Today, defence minister A K Antony informed Parliament that the Central Bureau of Investigation had recommended the blacklisting of four companies that had been involved, at various stages of this procurement: Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK); Germany's Rheinmetall; Israel Military Industries (IMI); and another Israeli company, Soltam. Denel, a South African company, had been blacklisted earlier;"

All the important artillery manufacturer's have been blaklisted in the last 6 years. Quite an achievement Mr. antony. please blacklist yourself and your ministry next.

 

[nitesh]

So here it goes, sometimes our politicians get the right thing done unknowingly . We know that the guns are needed, but seeing the current situation I feel like it was never going to happen. Now DRDO should enter in to this fray and should involve the private sector for production like for Akash and Pinaka (L&T and Tata). And IA should support this venture if they are interested in getting out of this mess. I am sure they will come out with a world class product in a reasonable time frame.

Guys never heard of 185mm gun? What was this project?

 

[Yusuf]

God no. I mean good that DRDO will come up with a gun, but they will have to come up with a next gen gun. We need some NOW and URGENTLY at that. We don't have time for DRDO to research up and come up with a gun and then have trials rejections etc and then come back to square one. We need guns right away and a contract signed today so that in 5 years we have all the guns serving in the forces not wait for DRDO to come up with a gun 5 years or more from now and then induct if at all.

 

[Rage]

God no. I mean good that DRDO will come up with a gun, but they will have to come up with a next gen gun. We need some NOW and URGENTLY at that. We don't have time for DRDO to research up and come up with a gun and then have trials rejections etc and then come back to square one. We need guns right away and a contract signed today so that in 5 years we have all the guns serving in the forces not wait for DRDO to come up with a gun 5 years or more from now and then induct if at all.

I second that. There must be a procurement parallel to the development process for a next-generation gun.

We've been without sufficient guns for the last 30 years now. We can not afford more delays. How is Antony so stupid to blacklist the four major world artillery manufacturers?? Where does he think the guns are going to come from, out of the skies?

You know, since the contract envisages buying 400 towed guns off the shelf and building 1,180 in India from transferred technology, they should just buy the 400 or a similar number and get it done with. The rest can be produced by the ARDE-Bh Forge-L & T conglomerate, if they want to. But at least give the Army something to fight with, other than 1950's-era vintage cannons.


Love, not so much,
Rage

 

[Rage]

Remember, this is the Army you're serving:


They deserve better.

 

[Yusuf]

Something has to be don about this non sense of a procurement policy and more so with the Guns. We are lying naked so to speak without these guns. I would not mind FMS, or even another "bribed" deal, but get the freaking guns for God sake. I think the bofors scandal did us more harm by way of screwing up the procurement policy which put most deals into rough weather and also in cautious go slow mode. More than the bribe that cost india a few crores, the billions not spent on proper acquisition which causes national security to be at risk is is costing the country more.

I would say more out of national interest, bury the damn scandal and move on with life. Our security is getting compromised.

 

[nitesh]

I agree with rage and yusuf remarks about getting the guns and these guys deserve better. but don't you think this mess blame can also be put towards IA top brass which has never ever asked for a home grown product? i mean what has stopped them from asking it for a local development. If some planning could have been done then we might now have been in such a bad situation

 

[SHASH2K2]

Problem is that if DRDO start this project now It will take at least 5-6 years for IOC and another 2-3 years for induction. Now the biggest question from Mr Antony is that can we afford to wait for 7 years to get these guns. and by the time those guns will be ready they will be outdated and army will refuse to take them without improvements.

so best option is to get minimum required number from vendor and start working on nest generation of these guns.

 

[nitesh]

I agree with rage and yusuf remarks about getting the guns and these guys deserve better. but don't you think this mess blame can also be put towards IA top brass which has never ever asked for a home grown product? i mean what has stopped them from asking it for a local development. If some planning could have been done then we might now have been in such a bad situation

To add to my point, it is indeed criminal from IA top brass that they scuttled the projects, which landed them to this position:

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/155-mm-gun-contract-drdo-entersfray/402834/

The DRDO spokesperson in New Delhi, Ravi Gupta, confirmed to the Business Standard, "The DRDO is very keen to develop 155-mm guns for the army. We had formed a team to work on this more than a decade ago, but the army did not give us a firm requirement then. Now, the army has expressed interest in the 155-mm gun project and preliminary work has already begun."

 

[Yusuf]

I agree with rage and yusuf remarks about getting the guns and these guys deserve better. but don't you think this mess blame can also be put towards IA top brass which has never ever asked for a home grown product? i mean what has stopped them from asking it for a local development. If some planning could have been done then we might now have been in such a bad situation

DRDO should have come up with the idea years back..why did it take 20 years to tell that it can make the gun??
DRDO always comes to the govt to offer its services for anything.. they should have done it in this case and got some money for development.
If it had done that 15 years back, we would have had a gun today from them.

Just like the Arjun was forced against the wishes of the IA, GoI would have forced some down the IA. At least we would have had a gun than not having anything at all.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We still got hope!!
DRDO must deliver the most needed hardware for IA.....

 

[Rahul Singh]

DRDO should have come up with the idea years back..why did it take 20 years to tell that it can make the gun??

It is known to all that ARDE developed 120MM gun for Arjun is of world class. We also know that DRDO in past had developed field guns which had served well throughout its life and now we also know that DRDO had also developed 185mm heavy howitzer which in wisdom should be seen as follow-on project to meet Army's long term requirements. Now in spite of all these information if Army didn't approached DRDO and kept on asking MoD to issue RFP after RFP then what should have DRDO done other than watching and waiting for right time?

DRDO always comes to the govt to offer its services for anything.. they should have done it in this case and got some money for development.
If it had done that 15 years back, we would have had a gun today from them.

DRDO has been massively, heavily, wildly and shamelessly criticized for using its veto against several import plans. Now it seems like they are looking towards caring their image as well as putting its resources only in those projects in which services are seriously interested.

We now know that DRDO had developed 185mm howitzer in which Army did not shown any interest. Now even after knowing this if you say DRDO did not offered anything then it will not be fair. Imagine, had that gun got accepted into service then by now its latest version could have been in service. Meaning we would not have been discussing on this topic.

Just like the Arjun was forced against the wishes of the IA, GoI would have forced some down the IA. At least we would have had a gun than not having anything at all.

Arjun was created because army had put a requirement for it and money(relatively far more than what it would have gone into that gun project) that was spent for its development was because of army's decision. In other words, it was army which had stipulated a requirement for a MBT like Arjun, it was Army which made mid way design and specification change, it was Army which forced DRDO to spend tax payer's money. Then why it should not be army which should be forced to accept a MBT which has proved its overwhelming Tactical superiority over its nearest rival?

 

[nitesh]

DRDO should have come up with the idea years back..why did it take 20 years to tell that it can make the gun??
DRDO always comes to the govt to offer its services for anything.. they should have done it in this case and got some money for development.
If it had done that 15 years back, we would have had a gun today from them.

Yusuf have you gone through the news at all? Any ways for quick view:

While the ARDE — the DRDO's facility for developing small arms, guns, howitzers, and rockets — has worked on gun technology earlier, now the army appears to have also concluded that indigenous development might be a faster route than international procurement.

One should wonder why this much of time taken to wake up from sleep for the top brass to put some money in to development? On one hand people will howl (they deserve better) that DRDO tries to stop the import (weather they have done it or not),and all ills is because of them, and on the other hand DRDO will be blamed for not stopping also. Isn't it is double standards

Highlighting the ARDE's experience in guns and artillery systems, Datar says: "The army is currently inducting our Pinaka multi-barrelled rocket launcher, a world-class system. Our 120-mm gun for the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 gun in army trials. In 1972, ARDE developed the 105mm Indian Field Gun (IFG), which was a mainstay of the Army's field artillery. We assisted with up-gunning the army's 130mm gun to 155-mm. And, ARDE produced a heavy 185-mm gun, but that never entered service because the army was not interested then."

By seeing this portion it seems that we have expertise in this area which was not even tried to harness the potential, isn't it is criminal. And please don't start that MoD should have directed DRDO to develop on it's own because MoD does not have expertise to form requirement it is the services who have to come with it. Which clearly they have not done.

Just like the Arjun was forced against the wishes of the IA, GoI would have forced some down the IA. At least we would have had a gun than not having anything at all.

Uh isn't this is the paranoia like statement where services are victimized, leaving aside the point about who has framed the requirement (Request you not to continue this topic here we can go to appropriate thread for this discussion )

 

[Yusuf]

Ah you got me wrong. I am a fan of the Arjun, but the army isn't but the GoI made sure the army ordered some. Similarly the GoI could force the IA into using DRDO guns. Some gun is better than nothing at all. I am all for indigenous weapons. My concern right now is no gun at all in 30 years. If DRDO is ready with its gun and going to deliver all of them in the next 5 years, sign the dotted line.

 

[nitesh]

Ah you got me wrong. I am a fan of the Arjun, but the army isn't but the GoI made sure the army ordered some. Similarly the GoI could force the IA into using DRDO guns. Some gun is better than nothing at all. I am all for indigenous weapons. My concern right now is no gun at all in 30 years. If DRDO is ready with its gun and going to deliver all of them in the next 5 years, sign the dotted line.

Sorry for getting you wrong, but you are missing a crucial point I am trying to make. For Arjun the GSQR was set by IA, but for guns it was never done. The news item clearly mentions that DRDO has indeed given an option which was rejected, why is any one's guessing

 

[Yusuf]

IA preference for foreign guns???

 

[nitesh]

IA preference for foreign guns???

Yup clearly they kept scuttling any effort in this direction until proven otherwise

 

[Yusuf]

And offcourse the babus played along as it meant more income.