Indian Army Artillery

[Kunal Biswas]

Picture of BEML ARZU Aka Himalaya SPGH >>

Dada Himalya SPH never heard of it.. could you give the details ?

 

[Sea Eagle]

Picture of BEML ARZU Aka Himalaya SPGH >>

So they offered to put the gun on both Arjun and T-72 chassis

 

[laughingbuddha]

Any developments on Smerch ammo? Extended range or GPS guided munitions?

 

[Sea Eagle]

Competitions for Indian Artillery:

Towed Howitzers:
competition involves about $1.8 billion for 400 towed 155/52 artillery guns, to be followed by production of up to 1,180 in India.
Current Status: 5th RFP is now out. Winter and summer trials planned in 2010, now in limbo. BAE Bofors'
FH77was competing against ST Engineering'sFH-2000, but BAE pulled out, and ST Kinetics is barred by a 10-year blacklist. On the sidelines, India's DRDO has used the blockage to start a design project of its own.
It also turned out that India's incompetent Ordnance Factory Board has been sitting on the plans it was given for the 155/39 caliber Bofors FH77B02, as the tech transfer piece of the 1990s buy that allowed licensed production in India. An October 2011 decision directed the OFB to begin manufacturing 155/39 and 155/45 caliber versions of these guns for trials, for delivery beginning in December 2012, but there have been issues with the guns. Now the guns have clearrd all trials and will enter service by year end.
Ultra-Light Howitzers
A 2nd competition involves about $700 million for the ultra-light 155/39 howitzer competition, covering about 145 pieces. These would be portable, towed guns.
Current status: India's government may be doing a government-to-government deal, as an emergency end-run to buy BAE's
M777, and bolster its dwindling artillery.
Singapore's Pegasus was picked in 2009, but ST Kinetics' 10-year blacklisting has derailed them, pending a legal fight. The reasons for the M777"²s holdup are a combination of the Indian bureaucracy's inability to conduct the required trials in over 2 years since the DSCA request, and reports that legal advisors were worried about a decision in the ST Kinetics' legal case entangling any M777 buy. In May 2012, India's MoD was reportedly cleared to negotiation an M777 contract worth around $550 million. As of February 2014, they haven't managed to get anything done.
Self-Propelled Tracked Howitzers
3rd competition would spend about $800 million for about 100 155mm self-propelled tracked guns. The BHIM (Denel G-6 gun on Arjun tank chassis) winner was terminated in 2006, when Denel was barred following a corruption case. Partner Bharat Earth Movers was the big loser. Another RFP in 2007 failed, as all of the firms with products to offer were barred.
Current status: After a period of limbo, India gave indications that some kind of process was underway in 2013, with 3 Indian firms participating. Meanwhile, Pakistan began its own process in 2005, and
bought 115tracked M109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers from the USA, at a very cheap price. The last one was delivered to Pakistan in 2010.
Self-Propelled Wheeled Howitzers
A 4th competition involves about $900 million – $1 billion for 180 self-propelled wheeled guns.
Current status: Canceled November 2011. RFP responses were reported to pit Slovakia's 155/45
Zuzanasystem against Germany's Rheinmetall and theirRWG-52
155/52 system, which uses the PzH-2000 turret.

 

[bhramos]

 

[laughingbuddha]

The indian procurement system has become the butt of all jokes.
What is the quantum of escalations due to all the re-tendering?
Is the bureaucracy ever held accountable for the delays in procurement that lead to critical shortage of equipment and massive wastage of much needed foreign exchange?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

OFB has no fault in it, Its MOD babus dont want any National product hence restricted OFB from making anything but to do license production ..

Btw, Dhanush was made and available since 2008, IA did not showed any interst nor MOD until when all doors are closed ..

A costly mistake ..

Competitions for Indian Artillery:

Towed Howitzers:
competition involves about $1.8 billion for 400 towed 155/52 artillery guns, to be followed by production of up to 1,180 in India.
Current Status: 5th RFP is now out. Winter and summer trials planned in 2010, now in limbo. BAE Bofors'
FH77was competing against ST Engineering'sFH-2000, but BAE pulled out, and ST Kinetics is barred by a 10-year blacklist. On the sidelines, India's DRDO has used the blockage to start a design project of its own.
It also turned out that India's incompetent Ordnance Factory Board has been sitting on the plans it was given for the 155/39 caliber Bofors FH77B02, as the tech transfer piece of the 1990s buy that allowed licensed production in India. An October 2011 decision directed the OFB to begin manufacturing 155/39 and 155/45 caliber versions of these guns for trials, for delivery beginning in December 2012, but there have been issues with the guns. Now the guns have clearrd all trials and will enter service by year end

===============================

Waste of money via FMS, Now Kalyani.co can provide the same but again no interest given here ..

In the mean time, IA failed to improve its vast Moutain Field Guns, Another costly mistake ..

Ultra-Light Howitzers
A 2nd competition involves about $700 million for the ultra-light 155/39 howitzer competition, covering about 145 pieces. These would be portable, towed guns.
Current status: India's government may be doing a government-to-government deal, as an emergency end-run to buy BAE's
M777, and bolster its dwindling artillery.
Singapore's Pegasus was picked in 2009, but ST Kinetics' 10-year blacklisting has derailed them, pending a legal fight. The reasons for the M777"²s holdup are a combination of the Indian bureaucracy's inability to conduct the required trials in over 2 years since the DSCA request, and reports that legal advisors were worried about a decision in the ST Kinetics' legal case entangling any M777 buy. In May 2012, India's MoD was reportedly cleared to negotiation an M777 contract worth around $550 million. As of February 2014, they haven't managed to get anything done.

==================================

Now IA is become desperate, Asked DRDO to mate Arjun and outdated M46 ..

Again here, Dhanush / TATA 52cal can be mated with Arjun, Again no interest a mistake in process ..

Self-Propelled Tracked Howitzers
3rd competition would spend about $800 million for about 100 155mm self-propelled tracked guns. The BHIM (Denel G-6 gun on Arjun tank chassis) winner was terminated in 2006, when Denel was barred following a corruption case. Partner Bharat Earth Movers was the big loser. Another RFP in 2007 failed, as all of the firms with products to offer were barred.
Current status: After a period of limbo, India gave indications that some kind of process was underway in 2013, with 3 Indian firms participating. Meanwhile, Pakistan began its own process in 2005, and
bought 115tracked M109A5 155mm self-propelled howitzers from the USA, at a very cheap price. The last one was delivered to Pakistan in 2010.

===================================

TATA and A&L so does OFB produced such systems, There should be immediate trails ..

But again not Interest, A mistake in process ..

Self-Propelled Wheeled Howitzers
A 4th competition involves about $900 million – $1 billion for 180 self-propelled wheeled guns.
Current status: Canceled November 2011. RFP responses were reported to pit Slovakia's 155/45
Zuzanasystem against Germany's Rheinmetall and theirRWG-52
155/52 system, which uses the PzH-2000 turret.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Solutions For Indian Problems ..

Towed Howitzers:

Bharat 52 from Kalyani.co

Dhanush MK1 from OFB

===========================
===========================

Ultra-Light Howitzers

155mm of 39cal from Kalyani.co

===========================
===========================

Self-Propelled Tracked Howitzers

Catapult with 130mm M46 ( Can be replaced by OFB Dhanush / TATA 52cal Gun / Kalyani .co 52cal Gun )

===========================
===========================

Self-Propelled Wheeled Howitzers

A&L Ceaser

TATA 52cal SPGH

^^ Without wasting more time, Conduct trails and induct them ..

 

[Sea Eagle]

I still think we should go for BHIM or the Himalaya based on Arjun chassis..
Using a OFB or Kalyani Gun to put on Arjun might take a lot of time.. They would have to do a lot of calculations and consume time..

====================


Btw What about the Masta-S and K-9 offers.. Any news on them.. Last time I checked the K-9 was returned to SoKo without undergoing trials.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army need a turret to mount on Arjun chassis, K9 does not provide so, Rather have its own chassis ..

This increase logistic burden, Though i was not aware that K9 was send back ..

 

[laughingbuddha]

Can't the IA buy a turrent design? We have the guns and the hull. The catapult was a primitive design - no swivel.
The turrent package will require a re-loader too I guess.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Auto-reloading is essential in such design ..

The best design is perhaps German`s KMW Donar ..

======================>>

PR Vid >>


This is the most lightest and fully automated turret system

=======================

Its offered to Indian Army via Partnership with A&L ..

=======================

It can be mounted on Leo-2 chassis, In that case it can be also done at Arjun Chassis ..

 

[laughingbuddha]

If integration is not a problem I see no reason why the IA should not opt for such a system. A couple of localised 155/52 guns under JVs already on offer too.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Can't the IA buy a turrent design? We have the guns and the hull. The catapult was a primitive design - no swivel.
The turrent package will require a re-loader too I guess.

Well i guess DRDO can take help from Kalyani Group. They designed their guns in just 2 years..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The MOD is looking forward to push Russian MSTA Spgh over other competitors ..

If integration is not a problem I see no reason why the IA should not opt for such a system. A couple of localised 155/52 guns under JVs already on offer too.

=====================

DRDO must, Though Kalyani Gun is actually Soltam`s Gun in Indian colours ..

Well i guess DRDO can take help from Kalyani Group. They designed their guns in just 2 years..

 

[Sea Eagle]

The MOD is looking forward to push Russian MSTA Spgh over other competitors ..



=====================

DRDO must, Though Kalyani Gun is actually Soltam`s Gun in Indian colours ..

The Dhruv can carry 1500 Kg underslung and the OFB 105mm weighs about 2100 Kg. So any chance that the gun could be disassembled and then be carried by Dhruv ??

---------------------------------

Also there was something called "Appratus Lift" develope by Gun Carriage factory for the use by Mi-17s and Sea Kings. What was the system and what were it uses ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

First few specs and details =========================>>

========================

1000kg under slung, Means it can carry 105mm in parts, It will take two to three Dhruv to transport a single 105mm with its ammunition ..

Appratus lift used to platform where vehicle and Big guns can be placed and then slung under a Helicopter ( MI-17, Sea Kings & Dhruv ) ..

The Dhruv can carry 1500 Kg underslung and the OFB 105mm weighs about 2100 Kg. So any chance that the gun could be disassembled and then be carried by Dhruv ??

---------------------------------

Also there was something called "Appratus Lift" develope by Gun Carriage factory for the use by Mi-17s and Sea Kings. What was the system and what were it uses ?

 

[cobra commando]

Kalyani Group Forges Ahead in Defence Sector - SP's Land Forces

 

[Hari Sud]

In all posts above; Kunal Biswas has given the best summary.

Everybody seems to blame the OFB, procurement process and DRDO etc. There is one point they missed i.e. Indian Army writes GSQR with one vendor in mind. I believe they had again the advanced Bofor 155/52 in mind. In Bofor case, it is hard to control the corruption angle. In-spite of their promises they still engaged in it.

The Army would put all the very best guns thru the most difficult tests and find faults with them (they just did in case of M777), because they have Bofor 155/52 in mind. Those repeated tests in winter and summer are designed to drive vendors cazy, hence they withdraw.

Indian Army - go ahead and settle for Indian made Bofor - 155/39/45. Go to Kalyani or TATAs for other 155 guns. Go ahead and work with DRDO so that they perfect their 155/52 design. Now you would have a variety of guns to choose from. Fire all the generals and made an example of them who have been deliberately sabotaging artillery purchases. Make sure that ammunition is local.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Indian Army - go ahead and settle for Indian made Bofor - 155/39/45. Go to Kalyani or TATAs for other 155 guns. Go ahead and work with DRDO so that they perfect their 155/52 design. Now you would have a variety of guns to choose from. Fire all the generals and made an example of them who have been deliberately sabotaging artillery purchases. Make sure that ammunition is local.


While one hopes that DRDO/OFB can come up with a good 155/52 gun in the near future, I don't know why the MoD doesn't buy the 155/52 on offer by Tata and Kalyani Forge to fill the shortages in artillery. Opting for the OFB 155-39/45 in small numbers may be okay to some extent but these will be out-gunned by better equipment of our neighbours. The M777 ULH should be procured without further delay to counter the chinese threat perception. I read in another thread that the chinese have already deployed their light tank against Indian positions and they also have tracked MBRLs. No other gun of similar caliber comes close to the M777 in weight (for airlift), even the singaporean light gun is around 2 tons heavier.