Indian Army Artillery

[TrueSpirit]

IA is familiar with the system ( FH-77 ), the gun is bofors B05 which is modern 52cal version of 39cal FH-77..

Yeah, I was assuming it to be the reason.

The Gun of Archer B05 is also have 25 liter chamber volume

So, this chamber volume means higher muzzle velocity, implying higher kinetic energy in the projectile, equaling higher range.

But, I can see similar ranges for Archer & Ceaser. Plus, Ceaser's weight is nearly half of Archer, which would mean excellent air-mobility. Makes it all the more relevant for us, isn't it ?

Then, the new armour protection being developed by Nexter means good enough crew-protection from virtually all kinds of threats (IED, roadside bombs, even big howitzer shells etc.)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Normal charge bags, the range is same with regular HE round, But bigger Chamber allow more charge bags hence longer ranges..

True, Ceaser design is better and compact..

So, this chamber volume means higher muzzle velocity, implying higher kinetic energy in the projectile, equaling higher range.

But, I can see similar ranges for Archer & Ceaser. Plus, Ceaser's weight is nearly half of Archer, which would mean excellent air-mobility. Makes it all the more relevant for us, isn't it ?

Then, the new armour protection being developed by Nexter means good enough crew-protection from virtually all kinds of threats (IED, roadside bombs, even big howitzer shells etc.)

 

[TrueSpirit]

M777 were coming through FMS route, right ? So, is there a delay or change of plan/priority ?

 

[Immanuel]

Nah, Overall Archer is far better and easier to use, Archer can lay down more shells per minute in MRSI mode and needs only a 3-4 man crew, it also carries more round (21 incomparison to CEASAR's 18)

It can aslo fire the Excalibur round out to 60km, it can easily be carried by the C-17

BAE Systems - 155mm Archer Artillery System - YouTube

 

[Immanuel]

I would also rather we buy the TATA mounted gun coz most of it would be built in India.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Nah, Overall Archer is far better and easier to use, Archer can lay down more shells per minute in MRSI mode and needs only a 3-4 man crew, it also carries more round (21 incomparison to CEASAR's 18)

It can aslo fire the Excalibur round out to 60km, it can easily be carried by the C-17

Far Better ......??

We do not know yet. We might never have a comparative trial. All we have is numbers from prior evaluations.

Easier to use....?

Obviously , anything becomes easy after you have 2 decades with it.

needs only a 3-4 man crew

Same with Ceaser, check again.

round out to 60km

Same with Ceaser, check again.

it can easily be carried by the C-17

Lets not go there. It is public knowledge that there is no Archer stands nowhere in comparison to Ceaser when it comes to mobility (especially, air-mobility). It is another matter altogether than IA is not expecting this feature from this class of howitzers. M-777 would fulfill this role.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

C-17 can carry a PZH-2000 inside, Its not an issue..

What interesting is, It should be fitted inside a C-130J..

In this case Ceaser is ahead then archer..

 

[TrueSpirit]

Oh, PZH-2000....just read about it..never knew any such gun exists in German Army inventory.

Packs some real firepower. I think it has the highest rounds/min count in MRSI mode. There couldn't be another parallel to 3 rounds in 9 seconds.

 

[Abhi9]

Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis | idrw.org
n unusual twist of events and as per latest media reports, Indian Army plans to bring back M46 howitzers mounted on Vijayanta tank chassis (originally the Vickers MBT) back to life. Indian army will soon place orders for 40 Arjun chassis to be used for mounting Soviet era M46 Howitzers.

'Bhim' self-propelled howitzer project which was supposed to replace Catapult system before it was shelved after supplier of 155mm / L52 howitzer guns by Denel of South Africa was blacklisted by Indian government . Project went cold and find for replacement Gun to be mounted on Arjun chassis not yet been successful, Bhim was successfully tested by Indian army and was cleared for Production before the project went cold due to blacklisting.

After success with M-46 guns in 1971 war with Pakistan , Indian army had used soviet union supplied towed 130 mm Field Gun M-46 and mounted it with Vijayanta tank chassis and was known has Catapult artillery system which served in Indian army till 2008 before it was put in reserve .

According to Military experts India had put into reserve around 100 Catapult artillery systems most of the guns will come from here, but before it is mounted on Arjun chassis, Guns will be upgraded to 155mm 52 calibre standard by OFB and then DRDO will integrate it with Arjun chassis.

Initial order of 40 can go up if Army is satisfied with the Final Product and Indian army can procure more of these guns from old soviet bloc countries, Indian army had a requirement of 200 mounted howitzers on Arjun chassis for the Bhim Project.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Excellent Development.

M-46 guns had their 130mm barrels removed and integrated with Vijayant tanks, to create the Catapult SPH system. It was good "juggad"tech for its time, superior to the 105mm British solution reportedly available with us.

Now, with this report of Arjun tank being integrated with existing M-46 gun,it is good news.

I, for one, am not fooled by "existing M-46 Catapult upgraded to 155mm/52 caliber". It seems to be a method of skirting the various restrictions / blacklists in place and somehow obtain desperately needed arty assets, in the guise of updating existing systems.

It looks like some parts of M-46 will be carried over,as for example the OFB Metamorphosis M-46 gun 155mm upgrade uses the existing breech block and recoil system.
(God knows what these parts are or what function they perform!).

Barrel will be an all new 155mm 52 caliber one. But still no issues.Hope barrel production is done locally, with no export items as bottlenecks.

Advantages:
> Superior mobility of Arjuns
> Can keep up with Armored columns on the move
> SPH can hit enemy assets upto 39km away (Metamorphosis M-46 spec with existing recoil system)
> Better crew protection, ergonomics and comfort.
> Night Fighting ability (?)
> Desi solution can be maintained / upgraded by us.

Disadvantages:
> Logistic chain not built up for Arjun size tanks
> Crossing canals with existing bridges,etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

I have a strong feeling that it will be Metamorphosis, It operational and Inducted.. ========>>

Gun is 155 x 45cal..

===============
===============

Some Points >

Yes, Night fighting is there, But it wont provide crew protection its an open system, It can cross canals and bridges as Arjun 20ton turret is put-off and 8 ton Gun is mounted..

So its 12 ton lighter than MK1..

Barrel will be an all new 155mm 52 caliber one. But still no issues.Hope barrel production is done locally, with no export items as bottlenecks.

Advantages:
> Superior mobility of Arjuns
> Can keep up with Armored columns on the move
> SPH can hit enemy assets upto 39km away (Metamorphosis M-46 spec with existing recoil system)
> Better crew protection, ergonomics and comfort.
> Night Fighting ability (?)
> Desi solution can be maintained / upgraded by us.

Disadvantages:
> Logistic chain not built up for Arjun size tanks
> Crossing canals with existing bridges,etc.

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

Dada,

To layman like me, the above Metamorphosis pics very very sexy.

I believe we have 550 + approx. 650 M-46 130mm guns available with us.

Same carriage + breech block + recoil system, etc. + OFB made 45 caliber barrel can be used as quick fix for getting 1000 plus towed arty guns quickly. (Present barrel from IMI / soltam ?)

> Not best solution, but simplified logistic chain (no more 130mm rounds)
> Easy to do by EME workshop level (well, atleast it looks and sounds easy !)
> 39 km v/s 27 km
> All sexy NATO shells can be fired.
> Tow with even desi trucks like TATA , Ashok Leyland
> No more internet posts crying about lack of 155mm gun numbers.

Wat say you....

 

[Patriot]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

Why can't we buy the Denel gun as BHIM or other comparable like K-9 instead of this crappy unreliable JUGAD. Where does it stand compare to the SPHs worldwide?

After so much delay & endless wait we are ending up with this JUGAD? I believe ( not sure) the gun performance requirement for the SPH is more stringent compare to other types of artillary Guns in mounted & towed versions. In addition open system is going to serve the purpose under NBC environment or under fire from enemies. IMO this is not going to last much in the intense battle field, as no protection for the crew.

Are we planning to buy even junk russian M-46 to upgrade & make more of this? It seems pretext to make money buying russian junk inventory in near future.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

One is blacklisted other is not wanted by IA to resons best known to it.

 

[Decklander]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

One is blacklisted other is not wanted by IA to resons best known to it.

What is wrong with Jugaad? Bofors gun has proven itself in Kargil. If we use that tech to upgrade or design a new SPH, it shud be lauded as that will be a real domestic solution with no problem of licensing and dollar outflows. Tata Denel also FYI is a Jugaad but no one is willing to call it such. same Jugaad worked for M2K when we bought israeli Laser precision kits and mated them to our 1000lbs bombs. The same thing is now called Sudarshan bomb.

 

[Patriot]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

What is wrong with Jugaad? Bofors gun has proven itself in Kargil. If we use that tech to upgrade or design a new SPH, it shud be lauded as that will be a real domestic solution with no problem of licensing and dollar outflows. Tata Denel also FYI is a Jugaad but no one is willing to call it such. same Jugaad worked for M2K when we bought israeli Laser precision kits and mated them to our 1000lbs bombs. The same thing is now called Sudarshan bomb.

Sir, Jugad is Ok rather very good when we do not have options or money.

When there are so many good options available why to rest with this, that too after so much delay. Even, we do not know how this jugad is going to work in the actual battle field against the modern Guns. Heck, even beggar pakistanis have better SPH than us even in greater numbers as well.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

What is wrong with Jugaad? Bofors gun has proven itself in Kargil. If we use that tech to upgrade or design a new SPH, it shud be lauded as that will be a real domestic solution with no problem of licensing and dollar outflows. Tata Denel also FYI is a Jugaad but no one is willing to call it such. same Jugaad worked for M2K when we bought israeli Laser precision kits and mated them to our 1000lbs bombs. The same thing is now called Sudarshan bomb.

Sir you misunderstood me, i was saying that Denel was blacklisted and K9 is not wanted by IA.

At the time of war, result matters be it Jugaad or anything else.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

Some Information about this Gun and its History

===================>>

India received 45cal barrel technology from Israeli when we upgraded some of 130mm M46 Field Gun to 155MM 45Cal field Gun which were unsuccessful, Latter OFB produced its own version of Israeli barrel in house, MK-1 and MK-2 kit were both unsuccessful later Modified ofb Kit was used to upgrade successfully on 130mm M46 field gun and hence turning them into 155mm / 45cal, Tot documents gives only knowledge of 39cal and the rest of the system, In OFB 45 cal gun the tot was helpful in making the rest of the system except the barrel..

MK-1 & 2 155mm of 45cal kit form OFB

Modified OFB 155mm of 45cal in service

The same 45cal barrel used on M46 will be on New OFB 45cal gun ..

====================
====================

At present OFB is upgrading 130mm guns to 155mm of 45cal, At the same time same with Older FH-77 to 45cal ( Same OFB barrel )..

Add to above there will be +100 OFB designed 155mm of 45cal Guns will be available, These Guns will be more advance then M46 upgrades as they come with there own FCS and other electronics, Above that they will have higher rate of fire same as FH-77..

--------------------------

Indian produce all kind of 155mm ammunition..

===============
===============
===============
===============

So what we have >

1. We have a good 155mm 45cal gun..
2. We Produce 155mm ammo in house..
3. We also have both tracked and Wheel in house..

What we need is Government & Army to look into Possibilities..

Dada,

Same carriage + breech block + recoil system, etc. + OFB made 45 caliber barrel can be used as quick fix for getting 1000 plus towed arty guns quickly. (Present barrel from IMI / soltam ?)

> Not best solution, but simplified logistic chain (no more 130mm rounds)
> Easy to do by EME workshop level (well, atleast it looks and sounds easy !)
> 39 km v/s 27 km
> All sexy NATO shells can be fired.
> Tow with even desi trucks like TATA , Ashok Leyland
> No more internet posts crying about lack of 155mm gun numbers.

Wat say you...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

As i said before, This is an fast track solution, It has nothing to do with larger tender for Tracked SPGH..

Sir, Jugad is Ok rather very good when we do not have options or money. .

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Rebirth of Catapult artillery system with Arjun Chassis

BTW JUGAAD is an internationally acclaimed management model called "Just-In-Time Management"

What is wrong with Jugaad? Bofors gun has proven itself in Kargil. If we use that tech to upgrade or design a new SPH, it shud be lauded as that will be a real domestic solution with no problem of licensing and dollar outflows. Tata Denel also FYI is a Jugaad but no one is willing to call it such. same Jugaad worked for M2K when we bought israeli Laser precision kits and mated them to our 1000lbs bombs. The same thing is now called Sudarshan bomb.