Indian Army Artillery

mist_consecutive

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My point is that we see plenty of waivers for imports but IDDM items are expected to be all-weather and all sector products and kept in trails continuously until they are or rejected.

since when have you heard of sector specific equipment in India? I was flabbergasted to read that the IA had given the K9s a waiver to just trail them in the deserts, 2020 highlighted the folly of that. I’m yet to see an Indian product that hasn’t had to be trailed in high altitudes yet because the armed forces argue they need equipment that can perform everywhere they operate- so why not for imports too?

300 SPG are adequate but like I said IA needs their 814 MGS which simply seems to have evaporated in the last 5 years, when was the last time this was spoken about? You only hear IA talk about towed and SPG recently.

MGS seem like the ideal solution for the East and north, K9 seems like a weird choice to throw another 100 at

On arty IA is severely falling behind, they should be inducting by the 1000s but are lucky to get 100 each of whatever they buy. I have no doubt if/when they get around to ordering ATAGS they won’t go for the full 3000+ requirement upfront but maybe 70-150 guns first and then incremental batches. No nation wins wars with such inadequate scale
Agree with you on the most parts.

For bold,


Sector-specific requirements, we indeed do. For example, Namica was modified and re-trialed because the requirement was to acquire the target in 40+ C desert conditions. M777s are specifically bought for mountain warfare, and all 145 will them will likely be allocated to mountain divisions.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Anyone knows how to differentiate between Bofors and Dhanush ?
I may be wrong, but I think the crane for Dhanush can hold four rounds and that for Bofors can hold three. So looking at the crane's end effector we should be able to tell.
OK that is wrong too. They both have three-round capacity cranes.
 
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Okabe Rintarou

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Anyone knows how to differentiate between Bofors and Dhanush ?
After looking at both from all angles and noticing all the small noticeable features I can, I have concluded that there is NO difference between the two other than the barrel. Every ancillary part down to the placement of indicators and even breech block, muzzle brake, etc are the same. So unless you can measure the barrel, you can't be sure.
 

abingdonboy

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After looking at both from all angles and noticing all the small noticeable features I can, I have concluded that there is NO difference between the two other than the barrel. Every ancillary part down to the placement of indicators and even breech block, muzzle brake, etc are the same. So unless you can measure the barrel, you can't be sure.
So did they just give up on Dhanush-52? I get that ATAGS has stolen the show quite a bit for indigenous (hard to call the Dhanush that) 155mm towed guns but a few years ago it was all the rage

eventually they are going to have to upgrade them to155/52 anyway. The Dhanush episode really will be a debacle that’s highlighted as how not to do things in years to come
 

Corvus Splendens

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After looking at both from all angles and noticing all the small noticeable features I can, I have concluded that there is NO difference between the two other than the barrel. Every ancillary part down to the placement of indicators and even breech block, muzzle brake, etc are the same. So unless you can measure the barrel, you can't be sure.
FH-77B is 39cal, Dhanush is 45cal. Dhanush weighs 700 kg more and has an 87 mm longer barrel.

Dhanush incorporates inertial navigation system, an improved onboard ballistic computer, modern day and night firing system. Dhanush is equipped with an Automatic Gun Alignment and Positioning System (AGAPS). The AGAPS uses the on-board ballistic computer to perform updated firing calculations to cater for changes in ballistic/meteorological conditions and changes in target location which have been communicated to the gun. This facet, along with the Muzzle Velocity Radar (MVR) and GPS enabled inertial navigation system (INS) feed to the Advanced Gun Sighting System (AGSS), allows for greater accuracy and autonomous or ‘roving gun’ capability.
1664365841684.png
 

Okabe Rintarou

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FH-77B is 39cal, Dhanush is 45cal. Dhanush weighs 700 kg more and has an 87 mm longer barrel.

Dhanush incorporates inertial navigation system, an improved onboard ballistic computer, modern day and night firing system. Dhanush is equipped with an Automatic Gun Alignment and Positioning System (AGAPS). The AGAPS uses the on-board ballistic computer to perform updated firing calculations to cater for changes in ballistic/meteorological conditions and changes in target location which have been communicated to the gun. This facet, along with the Muzzle Velocity Radar (MVR) and GPS enabled inertial navigation system (INS) feed to the Advanced Gun Sighting System (AGSS), allows for greater accuracy and autonomous or ‘roving gun’ capability.
View attachment 173494
So out of all these the differences that might be visible in Dhanush that could help one distinguish it from Bofors would likely be the systems: AGSS, MVR and AGAPS? But I couldn't make them out when I tried to tell Dhanush and Bofors apart from screen (maybe because I don't know what the elements of these systems look like).

So did they just give up on Dhanush-52? I get that ATAGS has stolen the show quite a bit for indigenous (hard to call the Dhanush that) 155mm towed guns but a few years ago it was all the rage

eventually they are going to have to upgrade them to155/52 anyway. The Dhanush episode really will be a debacle that’s highlighted as how not to do things in years to come
Last I heard the 52 cal was going on the truck mounted category only. Towed Dhanush was going to remain 45 cal.
 

abingdonboy

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So out of all these the differences that might be visible in Dhanush that could help one distinguish it from Bofors would likely be the systems: AGSS, MVR and AGAPS? But I couldn't make them out when I tried to tell Dhanush and Bofors apart from screen (maybe because I don't know what the elements of these systems look like).


Last I heard the 52 cal was going on the truck mounted category only. Towed Dhanush was going to remain 45 cal.
Even the dhanish MGS seems to have been cast aside for the ATAGS mounted system with BF
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Even the dhanish MGS seems to have been cast aside for the ATAGS mounted system with BF
That is actually a good thing. Because Dhanush is being opposed now, but after its entry into service becomes clear, it will become poster boy of dalals on how ToT is effective: "Bofors import gave us Dhanush or we couldn't have made such artillery" type arguments might be heard. ATAGS success is a lot more crucial that way.
 

The Shrike

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Hmm, still pretty hard to notice if not juxtaposed.
I haven't actually compared with the original Bofors but.... I'd check for the muzzle velocity radar and inertial navigation unit (box) both of which are on top of the cradle (you can make them out in the first image of the tweet). I'm assuming old school Bofors guns haven't been upgraded with modern electronics (could be wrong though).
 

Okabe Rintarou

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With my armchair hat on, I agree with this take.
True ..
But there is already a mounted 105 project ongoing .
120mm mortars can perhaps replace the role of the 105 ..
This news of all 105 being replaced by 155 is more than a decade old and was part of the field artillery rationalization plan. I think its got more to do with maintenance of war wastage reserves on a shoe string budget. So while the 105 mounted gun system is being given some attention, I am not sure if the Army is actually interested in it. I do agree that heavy mortars are needed especially in mountains. But why can't ULH 155mm do the job of the 105mm?
 

karn

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But why can't ULH 155mm do the job of the 105mm?
ULH 155 mm needs titanium and a lot of compromises to make it that weight . Unconfirmed reports of Ukrainian m777 becoming unserviceable after prolonged uses ..
And the most prolific 105 in the IA is the mountain gun .. and mortars replacement (even though I myself said so) are far more inaccurate compared to proper arty gun.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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ULH 155 mm needs titanium and a lot of compromises to make it that weight . Unconfirmed reports of Ukrainian m777 becoming unserviceable after prolonged uses ..
And the most prolific 105 in the IA is the mountain gun .. and mortars replacement (even though I myself said so) are far more inaccurate compared to proper arty gun.
Ukrainian M777 becoming unservicable due to prolonged usage might have to do with shoddy maintenance by conscripts. Titanium and 155mm ULH design are both available within India.
Other than that, advantages of 155 over 105 are numerous, but the biggest one is that or war wastage reserves now only have to carry one shell for the arty guns.
I do understand how ubiquitous 105mm is in mountain artillery regts. I know they are also deployed widely by BSF and ITBP. But I still believe makers of the FARP were right in considering whole-sale mediumization of Indian Artillery.
 

Love Charger

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Ukrainian M777 becoming unservicable due to prolonged usage might have to do with shoddy maintenance by conscripts. Titanium and 155mm ULH design are both available within India.
Other than that, advantages of 155 over 105 are numerous, but the biggest one is that or war wastage reserves now only have to carry one shell for the arty guns.
I do understand how ubiquitous 105mm is in mountain artillery regts. I know they are also deployed widely by BSF and ITBP. But I still believe makers of the FARP were right in considering whole-sale mediumization of Indian Artillery.
We are also getting conscripts soon due to agnipath , aap ruko to sahi
 

karn

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Ukrainian M777 becoming unservicable due to prolonged usage might have to do with shoddy maintenance by conscripts. Titanium and 155mm ULH design are both available within India.
We are poor country saar .. titanium is almost 100X the cost of steel. Oh and dat titanium tooling...
Side note-
This is why im skeptical on any hypersonic one use weapon... all these will use titanium and will probably bankrupt any country that tries to stock these up in numbers.

I do understand how ubiquitous 105mm is in mountain artillery regts. I know they are also deployed widely by BSF and ITBP. But I still believe makers of the FARP were right in considering whole-sale mediumization of Indian Artillery.
They probably mean getting rid of the soviet 122s and 130s.. More like a rationalization of medium artillery.
 

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