Indian Army Artillery

Okabe Rintarou

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It is comparatively much difficult to track an artillery shell compared to rocket of MRLS by counter battery radars
How so when existence of a rocket motor and a guidance system means the round will follow anything but a ballistic trajectory?
In fact, the MLRS can quickly discharge a larger number of rounds, each with a higher explosive or submunitions yield than a tube artillery can, making it both more lethal and also more survivable.

Tube artillery tends to be very accurate
As does Rocket arty. If its using guidance, which it is at those ranges.

With advent of UAV and powerful EO and Radar sensors engaging ISR at range of 250 km inside enemy area has become very simple.
Let alone UAV, even with a J-STARS, you'd be hard pressed to locate an enemy MLRS 100 km behind the front. Forget 250 km and forget "very simple".
@Bhadra ji was explaining on this very thread how even 50 km for tube arty makes little sense when the SATA battery attached to you can't see that deep. Although, I don't fully agree with him either, you can see what military officers of this nation think.

Any source for this? AFAIK the range is ~48km (assuming sea-level altitude).
Agreed. ATAGS has only ever shown 48 km with base bleed. 60 km was to be with RAP.
 

Saumyasupraik

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Do you pics of. 155 mm arty rounds used by Indian army
Made by ofb ?
Plus is there a special 155 mm general purpose round for bofors other than m107?


Originally FH-77B came with M107, M/77B, HEER, FFV 007 , FFV 007 IR, FFV 007 ER, MIRA and MIRA ER. M395 or M396 cargo shells along with Krasnopol were adopted later. Around the 2000s firing tables for the Somchem/Denel ammunition ERFB-BT/BB for HE/Smk/IR would be developed.
 

Dark Sorrow

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How so when existence of a rocket motor and a guidance system means the round will follow anything but a ballistic trajectory?
Guided round don't follow ballistic trajectory in conventional definition. Guided round are fired with always energy to spare for course correction in terminal phase.
MRLS rockets have a higher RCS and IR signature hence it is more easy to track them compared to artillery round.
In fact, the MLRS can quickly discharge a larger number of rounds, each with a higher explosive or submunitions yield than a tube artillery can, making it both more lethal and also more survivable.
Quickly discharge is one area where MRLS has advantage but nowadays you even have MRSI.
Most of the time one doesn't need quickly discharge, especially in artillery dualling and precision strike.
The discussion is not about tube artillery vs MRLS but use cases of ramjet powered tube artillery round.
As does Rocket arty. If its using guidance, which it is at those ranges.
No one denied that but still tube artillery is preferred precision strike be it cost effectiveness, better control, simpler logistic or better availability. With 120km range round it will push the engagement envelope of tube artillery and will give distant advantage to Indian artillery arm.
This will also reduce our reliance on CM or BM to hit target deep inside enemy territory.
With such ranges we can target terrorist camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (like Balakot) from within our border
Let alone UAV, even with a J-STARS, you'd be hard pressed to locate an enemy MLRS 100 km behind the front. Forget 250 km and forget "very simple".
@Bhadra ji was explaining on this very thread how even 50 km for tube arty makes little sense when the SATA battery attached to you can't see that deep. Although, I don't fully agree with him either, you can see what military officers of this nation think.
That was true in the past. ISR have evolved a lot.
New generation sensors (be it RF-based or EO based are very capable).
Ukraine war has shown ISR platform having capability to identify targets deep within enemy territory.
 

Okabe Rintarou

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Guided round don't follow ballistic trajectory in conventional definition. Guided round are fired with always energy to spare for course correction in terminal phase.
Yeah, that is what I said.

MRLS rockets have a higher RCS and IR signature hence it is more easy to track them compared to artillery round.
WLR uses RCS. Slightly higher RCS of MLRS round but its delivering the same effect on target as multiple separate 155 rounds. Meaning that for former, WLR has one opportunity, while for the latter it has multiple opportunities to point the source.

Quickly discharge is one area where MRLS has advantage but nowadays you even have MRSI.
Most of the time one doesn't need quickly discharge, especially in artillery dualling and precision strike.
The discussion is not about tube artillery vs MRLS but use cases of ramjet powered tube artillery round.
Oh c'mon. Shoot and scoot tactics are extremely important as you yourself alluded to the importance of the WLRs. At one place you are telling me about how MLRS round having larger RCS is a problem. Now you are saying quick discharge is not really needed.

Do agree that MRSI helps, but even so, a six-round MRSI still gives you less boom on target than a single 214mm MLRS round, let alone a 300mm MLRS round.

BTW, I wonder if modern WLR have software to use the multiple tracks MRSI provides to locate the source more quickly, instead of treating each MRSI round as a separate shell.

No one denied that but still tube artillery is preferred precision strike be it cost effectiveness, better control, simpler logistic or better availability. With 120km range round it will push the engagement envelope of tube artillery and will give distant advantage to Indian artillery arm.
This will also reduce our reliance on CM or BM to hit target deep inside enemy territory.
With such ranges we can target terrorist camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (like Balakot) from within our border
Agreed that the advantage due to rocket assisted 155mm round is quite important. Do check out my post on the same. But my entire point is that it is something that now complements (not replaces) MLRS, CM and TBM.

That was true in the past. ISR have evolved a lot.
New generation sensors (be it RF-based or EO based are very capable).
Ukraine war has shown ISR platform having capability to identify targets deep within enemy territory.
ISR still won't get you the real time position of an MLRS 250 km behind the front with any reliability. I am sure Ukraine war also bears out this fact. Unless you have air superiority ofc.
 

Hari Sud

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My question to the experts……How many of Chinese artillery guns when subjected to Indian Army, Quality Review etc., will pass.

My analysis ……..None.

There is definite undercurrent in the Chinese military hardware customers that much of the Chinese supplied hardware is below standard. They buy it because it is third of the price quoted by the Western suppliers. Most of the customers buy it for parade ground type display and not to fight a war. Examples are too many. Bangladesh’s submarine or other hardware will never see a war. It is there for display. Imagine them fighting a war either with India or Myanmar. Same is true with other customers elsewhere. Over a period of time, the hardware purchased will rust away and sold as scrap.
 

Fire and groove

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My question to the experts……How many of Chinese artillery guns when subjected to Indian Army, Quality Review etc., will pass.

My analysis ……..None.

There is definite undercurrent in the Chinese military hardware customers that much of the Chinese supplied hardware is below standard. They buy it because it is third of the price quoted by the Western suppliers. Most of the customers buy it for parade ground type display and not to fight a war. Examples are too many. Bangladesh’s submarine or other hardware will never see a war. It is there for display. Imagine them fighting a war either with India or Myanmar. Same is true with other customers elsewhere. Over a period of time, the hardware purchased will rust away and sold as scrap.
1. Chinese exports aren't the same as their domestic counterparts, case in point being the PL-12 and the SD-10.
2. I'd rather not shoot in the dark and assume that their equipment sucks when we have no information on their actual technical specs and trial data.
 

Hari Sud

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1. Chinese exports aren't the same as their domestic counterparts, case in point being the PL-12 and the SD-10.
2. I'd rather not shoot in the dark and assume that their equipment sucks when we have no information on their actual technical specs and trial data.
‘Chinese never publish trial data or test data. They call it state secret. Hence there is only one way to conclude that a lot is hidden which makes any Chinese hardware ineffective. Experience shows that.
 

samsaptaka

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So now it's confirm that this gun will come or will be ordered after 2-3 years
@Chinmoy I think you were right
hopium eh ? that's just to keep the aatmanirbharata show on, internally they keep conducting lunar solar trials, solar lunar eclipse trials and push for Athos. Yes I am a cynic
 

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