Indian Army Artillery

[Flying Dagger]

What Tech transfer you need ?? Who needs this Tech? You ?? or Army?? Because DRDO doesn't need any technology from ATHOS.

400 ATHOS while 118 ATAGS only. Why don't you point out lower order for slow production rather than suggesting 400 ATHOS for rapid induction ??

MOD should put ATHOS in the Banned list indefinetely. Period

Who said 118 ATAGS ? Total requirement is around 1600-1800 they will still require 1200-1400 ATAGS after ATHOS.

Perhaps you meant Dhanush Howitzer of 155 /45 cal . round which is basically a copy of Bofors . First know the difference between ATAGS Dhanush Howitzer Bharat 52 ATAGS etc etc. Instead of mixing it all up.

They were supposed to upgrade Dhanush to 52 from 45 but not yet , still army ordered it and they haven't been able to fulfill it either.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Atags is 18 ton. Bharat 52 is GC-45 (8tonne) which is lighter than athos and it also outrange Athos. We can prefer that if weight is only issue

Hey! You really need to first know what you are talking abt before saying anything.

First you said ATAGS weight 12 T class now You got 18 T and 8 T class .

Bharat 52 has got tech transfer through acquiring GC 45 a 45 cal gun and made a 52 Cal gun using it. But it's not 8 ton class but 15 T .

 

[Flying Dagger]

It's bharat 52 not ATAGS.

Bharat 52 Is ATAGS of Kalyani Group you can call it Bharat 52 for the time being if you wish.

DRDO ATAGS is different. There are two available for this requirement.

18 T is weight of ATAGS ( DRDO ) which I mentioned.

Bharat 52 weigh 15 T.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Bharat 52 is not ATGAS. Bharat 52 is Bharat Forge's 52 caliber version of the their own design which is heavily borrowed from GHN 45 artillery gun from Norincum (Austria), whose design as well as the entire factory from Austria was acquired and reestablished in India. GHN-45 in turn is based on GC-45 design of the famous Candian scientist Gerald Bull. This design was also passed to Israel's Soltam who have manufactured Athos, China's Norinco who have manufactured PLL 001, and to Singapore's FH88.

Hence the physical characteristics of Bharat 52 and Athos are similar as they share pedigree. Hence if Athos is chosen by Army, they will be locally assembled in Bharat Forge's facilities.

ATAGS on the other hand was a DRDO project initiated in 2010-11 period. It involved Bharat Forge and Tata's. It's range is more compared to both Bharat 52 and Athos. However, on the downside initial prototypes of ATAGS weighed around 18 tons, while Athos and Bhart 52 will weigh around 13-14 tons. However, Bharat Forge has said that the weight will be decreased to around 16 tons.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Bharat 52 is not ATGAS. Bharat 52 is Bharat Forge's 52 caliber version of the their own design which is heavily borrowed from GHN 45 artillery gun from Norincum (Austria), whose design as well as the entire factory from Austria was acquired and reestablished in India. GHN-45 in turn is based on GC-45 design of the famous Candian scientist Gerald Bull. This design was also passed to Israel's Soltam who have manufactured Athos, China's Norinco who have manufactured PLL 001, and to Singapore's FH88.

Hence the physical characteristics of Bharat 52 and Athos are similar as they share pedigree. Hence if Athos is chosen by Army, they will be locally assembled in Bharat Forge's facilities.

ATAGS on the other hand was a DRDO project initiated in 2010-11 period. It involved Bharat Forge and Tata's. It's range is more compared to both Bharat 52 and Athos. However, on the downside initial prototypes of ATAGS weighed around 18 tons, while Athos and Bhart 52 will weigh around 13-14 tons. However, Bharat Forge has said that the weight will be decreased to around 16 tons.

ATAGS basically mean towed artillery gun system and both Bharat 52 and DRDO gun fit into it while DRDO is going with this name and Bharat 52 is using its name . There is nothing more to it .

ATHOS is a finished product with 13 T weight class

Bharat 52 weigh 15 T + around

And DRDO got a 18 T Gun.

Now Bharat Forge is involved with both these guns .

Regarding weight even with 16 T

if it happens ??

and when it will happen??

it will be 3 T heavier. Something around 14-15 should be acceptable though like Bharat 52.

 

[Ayushraj]

ATAGS basically mean towed artillery gun system and both Bharat 52 and DRDO gun fit into it while DRDO is going with this name and Bharat 52 is using its name . There is nothing more to it .

ATHOS is a finished product with 13 T weight class

Bharat 52 weigh 15 T + around

And DRDO got a 18 T Gun.

Now Bharat Forge is involved with both these guns .

Regarding weight even with 16 T

if it happens ??

and when it will happen??

it will be 3 T heavier. Something around 14-15 should be acceptable though like Bharat 52.

What advantage will athos will give over atags.
At war firepower and range matters. Athos lacks in those 2 parameters buying
Athos will give us clear disadvantage.
Weight is considered for just transportation issue.
What technological difference will upcoming of Athos with tot will give us. We have all technology available in our country it will just cause resources duplication.
What advantage will Athos gun will give in case of war?weight is not an advantage. Firepower and range matters mostly in war. Indian Army has transported heavy bofors to kargil in war. We have transportation capability for heavy guns

 

[Ayushraj]

ATAGS basically mean towed artillery gun system and both Bharat 52 and DRDO gun fit into it while DRDO is going with this name and Bharat 52 is using its name . There is nothing more to it .

ATHOS is a finished product with 13 T weight class

Bharat 52 weigh 15 T + around

And DRDO got a 18 T Gun.

Now Bharat Forge is involved with both these guns .

Regarding weight even with 16 T

if it happens ??

and when it will happen??

it will be 3 T heavier. Something around 14-15 should be acceptable though like Bharat 52.

If weight is only issue why we are buying 47 tonnne k9 vajra. In war firepower and range matters.

 

[Flying Dagger]

If weight is only issue why we are buying 47 tonnne k9 vajra. In war firepower and range matters.

Do you even know the difference between two?

What advantage will athos will give over atags.
At war firepower and range matters. Athos lacks in those 2 parameters buying
Athos will give us clear disadvantage.
Weight is considered for just transportation issue.
What technological difference will upcoming of Athos with tot will give us. We have all technology available in our country it will just cause resources duplication.
What advantage will Athos gun will give in case of war?weight is not an advantage. Firepower and range matters mostly in war. Indian Army has transported heavy bofors to kargil in war. We have transportation capability for heavy guns

You'll be paying for the increase in logistics and fuel bill for the army ?

What's the weight of Bofors ?

You haven't provided link of 12 T and 8 T class ATAGS you mentioned yet .

First read then post.

 

[ladder]

ATAGS basically mean towed artillery gun system and both Bharat 52 and DRDO gun fit into it while DRDO is going with this name and Bharat 52 is using its name . There is nothing more to it .

'Sarang' is also ATAGS and so is 'metamorphosis' according to your definition.
Bharat 52 isn't ATAGS as it isn't named so. Although in character it can be an ATAGS or TAGS if one is not sure about what 'advancement' it brings to the table.
Commonality of parts with Kalyani prototype of DRDO ATAGS and Bharat 52 too wouldn't lend the latter the 'name' ATAGS. Although, it might be advanced and a towed artillery gun system thus being a ATAGS.

The similar construct is with the term LCA. Can mean both, any light combat aircraft and contextually can be the LCA Tejas depending how it is used.

Here the contextual use of the term ATAGS was clear by the said user as reference to DRDO ATAGS.

If we tread your path, any vertically launched short ranged SAM will become VL- SRSAM ( even if they have unique name) . So will be the VL-SRSAM from DRDO.

Have we in this forum not gone through the confusion related to the term QR-SAM, when one such system was deployed in Ladakh, last summer? Some members constituted that it referred to under development DRDO QR-SAM.

So, contextual use of the term is important and implicit. And so is commonality and acceptance.

A very good discussion shouldn't be held hostage to confusion regarding 'name' of the products as it becomes difficult to understand which product is being refered to.

 

[Indrajit]

You'll be paying for the increase in logistics and fuel bill for the army ?

Ya, who else? The army is paid through our tax money. Do you think the Israelis will be paying for it? Some of the cheerleading that goes on for a foreign product vis a vis an Indian one is sickening to see.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Ya, who else? The army is paid through our tax money. Do you think the Israelis will be paying for it? Some of the cheerleading that goes on for a foreign product vis a vis an Indian one is sickening to see.

Tax ?

No Israel won't pay for logistics but with a 5 Ton well tested light gun they'll definitely cut down the expense.

Unfortunately we have so many dumbos who will shout inneccesantly to force OFB produced half baked junks in army.

 

[Pig benis on sushy]

Tax ?

No Israel won't pay for logistics but with a 5 Ton well tested light gun they'll definitely cut down the expense.

Unfortunately we have so many dumbos who will shout inneccesantly to force OFB produced half baked junks in army.

Is Athos tested by IA like ATAGS and the Answer will be No just like the ak deal ATAGS is better in all fields than Athos. Don't become a simp for Israeli products. They offer 70 % Indigenization my ass DRDO doesn't need indigenization coz it already is and please tell me the price of single Athos .

 

[Flying Dagger]

'Sarang' is also ATAGS and so is 'metamorphosis' according to your definition.
Bharat 52 isn't ATAGS as it isn't named so. Although in character it can be an ATAGS or TAGS if one is not sure about what 'advancement' it brings to the table.
Commonality of parts with Kalyani prototype of DRDO ATAGS and Bharat 52 too wouldn't lend the latter the 'name' ATAGS. Although, it might be advanced and a towed artillery gun system thus being a ATAGS.

The similar construct is with the term LCA. Can mean both, any light combat aircraft and contextually can be the LCA Tejas depending how it is used.

Here the contextual use of the term ATAGS was clear by the said user as reference to DRDO ATAGS.

If we tread your path, any vertically launched short ranged SAM will become VL- SRSAM ( even if they have unique name) . So will be the VL-SRSAM from DRDO.

Have we in this forum not gone through the confusion related to the term QR-SAM, when one such system was deployed in Ladakh, last summer? Some members constituted that it referred to under development DRDO QR-SAM.

So, contextual use of the term is important and implicit. And so is commonality and acceptance.

A very good discussion shouldn't be held hostage to confusion regarding 'name' of the products as it becomes difficult to understand which product is being refered to.

Instead of jumping jack you should read the post I responded to. Every gun weight was referenced as ATAGS without knowing what he is actually talking abt.

Sharang is upgunned to 155 mm / 45 Cal and not 52 Cal

Unlike ATAGS / Athos / Bharat 52 which are 52 Cal.

I have simply said both are towed artillery gun system but one is from DRDO and use name ATAGS while another Bharat 52 . There is nothing confusing abt it .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Tax ?

No Israel won't pay for logistics but with a 5 Ton well tested light gun they'll definitely cut down the expense.

Unfortunately we have so many dumbos who will shout inneccesantly to force OFB produced half baked junks in army.

5 Ton lighter than ATAGS *

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

There is no point in discussing import of Athos. Tracked artillery systems (52 caliber) has been moved to Import Negative list by the Government with the deadline of December 2020. That deadline has already been crossed.

Artillery guns, assault rifles, AFVs — Here's a list of 101 items MoD won't import in future

Contracts worth almost Rs 4 lakh crore will be placed with the domestic industry within the next six to seven years.

theprint.in

Hence the 52 caliber requirement will be met with any one/more of the following guns:

1. ATAGS (from Bharat Forge and Tata SED)
2. BHARAT 52 (from Bharat Forge)
3. Dhanush 52 caliber (from OFB)
4. Ultra Light Howitzer 52 caliber (from Bharat Forge)

 

[Longewala]

Do you even know the difference between two?



You'll be paying for the increase in logistics and fuel bill for the army ?

What's the weight of Bofors ?

You haven't provided link of 12 T and 8 T class ATAGS you mentioned yet .

First read then post.

What is the increase in fuel bill with 1000 howitzers @ few tonnes extra weight

Versus the benefits of additional performance and completely indigenous product

And question stand - if we can afford and are able to operate 100 (and possibly much more more) K9 SP, why is logistics such an issue for a few hundred 155mm towed guns weighing 1/3rd as much

 

[vishnugupt]

Tax ?

No Israel won't pay for logistics but with a 5 Ton well tested light gun they'll definitely cut down the expense.

Unfortunately we have so many dumbos who will shout inneccesantly to force OFB produced half baked junks in army.

You are a champion in changing goal post. Having Conversation with you like playing boxing match where you go corner to corner and post to post.
First you said ToT but failed to explain why we need that technology
2) You want ATHOS because it is low weight but hide the fact that ATHOS's range is far less than ATAGs.
3) Now you brought logistic problem but fails to explain why ATAGs is logistic nightmare but not the ATHOS. Though ATAGs have better transmission/ electronics/APU
4) Then you brought issue of diesel payment ??


You have habit of showing DRDO product in negative light by hiding informations.
1) ATHOS range and accuracy is even lesser than Dhanush so forget ATAGs. ATHOS maximum fire range is 40 km ( BB ) while normal range with standard rounds 30km. ATHOS fire rate is lesser. not certified for Charge 7 ( at least cant use regularly )
2) ATHOS is outdated gun
3) ATAGs is different gun compare to ATHOS except Barrel size.
4) If Army need sturdy gun then why their ass is itching now if wait reaches 18 ton( which is also a lie ) ?? ATAG can fire Charge 7 round nonstop, better Transmission better accuracy, better APU then weight is also high. Same Army did with Arjun, ask everything in system and cry for overweight.

Modi has cemented the loophole of kickback money to our Generals so they are desperate to sabotage indigenous product. Barrels burst of ATAGs was deliberate attempt by IA/lobby but unfortunately failed miserably.

I think Armed forces should start accepting local product gracefully before Modi start inserting them from behind forcefully. China standoff has exposed our Armed forces badly.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

You are a champion in changing goal post. Having Conversation with you like playing boxing match where you go corner to corner and post to post.
First you said ToT but failed to explain why we need that technology
2) You want ATHOS because it is low weight but hide the fact that ATHOS's range is far less than ATAGs.
3) Now you brought logistic problem but fails to explain why ATAGs is logistic nightmare but not the ATHOS. Though ATAGs have better transmission/ electronics/APU
4) Then you brought issue of diesel payment ??


You have habit of showing DRDO product in negative light by hiding informations.
1) ATHOS range and accuracy is even lesser than Dhanush so forget ATAGs. ATHOS maximum fire range is 40 km ( BB ) while normal range with standard rounds 30km. ATHOS fire rate is lesser. not certified for Charge 7 ( at least cant use regularly )
2) ATHOS is outdated gun
3) ATAGs is different gun compare to ATHOS except Barrel size.
4) If Army need sturdy gun then why their ass is itching now if wait reaches 18 ton( which is also a lie ) ?? ATAG can fire Charge 7 round nonstop, better Transmission better accuracy, better APU then weight is also high. Same Army did with Arjun, ask everything in system and cry for overweight.

Modi has cemented the loophole of kickback money to our Generals so they are desperate to sabotage indigenous product. Barrels burst of ATAGs was deliberate attempt by IA/lobby but unfortunately failed miserably.

I think Armed forces should start accepting local product gracefully before Modi start inserting them from behind forcefully. China standoff has exposed our Armed forces badly.

Also atags weight and Athos weight issue is a red herring.you won't be able to tansport more than one at a time if at all using helicopter and if you come under fire that you can avoid then both will scoot away at same speed.in fact atags has better scoot ability.the primary issue or requirement with artillery arm of India is ready availablity of good range relatively accurate relatively powerful high volume fire ability being the standard option instead of using strategic missiles like brahmos which are comparitively very expensive for the effect it causes.

Atags will also unlike other arms singlehandedly solve a whole arms (artillery arm) weapon issue for decades and form the backbone whereas other systems which are Indeginous are always only a small part of a larger structure.

If indian army loses this opportunity and gives it very few token orders then I will give up on the patriotism and will of the procurement department and declare it unfit.there is no other better complete system of Indeginous development in India's long history than that of atags other than maybe the stategic missiles of agni series.this is a must win barometer for the rest of the hopes we have with adoption of indigenous solutions for weapon procurement.

 

[Cruise missile]

You are a champion in changing goal post. Having Conversation with you like playing boxing match where you go corner to corner and post to post.
First you said ToT but failed to explain why we need that technology
2) You want ATHOS because it is low weight but hide the fact that ATHOS's range is far less than ATAGs.
3) Now you brought logistic problem but fails to explain why ATAGs is logistic nightmare but not the ATHOS. Though ATAGs have better transmission/ electronics/APU
4) Then you brought issue of diesel payment ??


You have habit of showing DRDO product in negative light by hiding informations.
1) ATHOS range and accuracy is even lesser than Dhanush so forget ATAGs. ATHOS maximum fire range is 40 km ( BB ) while normal range with standard rounds 30km. ATHOS fire rate is lesser. not certified for Charge 7 ( at least cant use regularly )
2) ATHOS is outdated gun
3) ATAGs is different gun compare to ATHOS except Barrel size.
4) If Army need sturdy gun then why their ass is itching now if wait reaches 18 ton( which is also a lie ) ?? ATAG can fire Charge 7 round nonstop, better Transmission better accuracy, better APU then weight is also high. Same Army did with Arjun, ask everything in system and cry for overweight.

Modi has cemented the loophole of kickback money to our Generals so they are desperate to sabotage indigenous product. Barrels burst of ATAGs was deliberate attempt by IA/lobby but unfortunately failed miserably.

I think Armed forces should start accepting local product gracefully before Modi start inserting them from behind forcefully. China standoff has exposed our Armed forces badly.

Imagine some one using indigenous weapon pic on his profile but doing dalali lol.

 

[Cruise missile]

What is the increase in fuel bill with 1000 howitzers @ few tonnes extra weight

Versus the benefits of additional performance and completely indigenous product

And question stand - if we can afford and are able to operate 100 (and possibly much more more) K9 SP, why is logistics such an issue for a few hundred 155mm towed guns weighing 1/3rd as much

Cost of some extra fuel would be probably less than cost of managing imported artillery every year.