Indian Army Artillery

Ayushraj

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Israel offers to India artillery gun at about half the cost of the indigenous ATAGS
After quoting far cheaper than French gunmaker Nexter in a government tender to supply the Indian Army with 1,580 artillery guns, Israeli firm Elbit Systems has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, sweetening its offer by promising to build 70 per cent of the weapon in India.


That is significantly higher indigenisation than the 50 per cent required for “Make in India” projects.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender requires Elbit Systems to supply the first 400 of its ATHOS 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns in fully built or knocked-down condition, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns, which the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has to manufacture with transfer of technology (ToT) from Elbit, must be at least 50 per cent made in India.

Elbit’s letter, which Business Standard has reviewed, far exceeds that requirement. “We would like to confirm that Elbit Systems is committed to manufacture the ATHOS towed gun system in India, strictly and in full compliance of the ‘Make in India’ policy, with 70 per cent indigenisation (Indian value) within the contract of the first 400 towed guns,” it says.

For indigenising the first 400 ATHOS guns, Elbit has partnered the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge. Once production of the Indian Army’s next 1,180 guns shifts to the OFB, Elbit and the Kalyani Group intend to continue building ATHOS guns together for the global market.

“We will take the required actions to brand the ATHOS as an Indian towed gun system, fully manufactured in India. Elbit is also committed to use its Global Supply Chains for export of the fully indigenous ATHOS gun, produced, assembled and tested in India to other countries around the globe,” states the letter, signed by Elbit’s vice-president, Yehuda Vered.

In addition to full ToT to enable OFB to build 1,180 guns, Elbit writes it has taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies to indigenise the first 400 guns. These include establishing a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems Private Ltd; and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC Private Ltd. “Elbit Systems is also in the process of concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad,” writes Elbit.

In its response to the MoD’s tender, Elbit System’s ATHOS gun turned out to be priced a whopping 40 per cent cheaper than the Nexter gun. Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 guns, compared to €776 million quoted by Nexter, say sources privy to the tender process.

That means each ATHOS gun is priced at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore per piece), while Nexter’s would cost €1.94 million or ~17.3 crore per piece.

At that price, the ATHOS is barely half the cost of the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which is estimated to be priced at close to ~20 crore per piece.

Perhaps for this reason, the MoD has kept the door open for importing the ATHOS, while the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) continues with trials of the ATAGS, which it is developing in public-private partnership with Bharat Forge and the Tata Group.

Business Standard had reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) that the MoD — which had earlier embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns from December 31, 2020 — reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, that is till December 31, 2021.

Buying 155 mm artillery for the army has proved extremely difficult since the controversial Bofors FH77B procurement in the late 1980s. Since these heavy guns proved to be a battle-winning weapon in the 1999 Kargil War, successive governments have tried in vain to conclude a contract for buying more. However, the reverberations of the Bofors scandal ensured that successive procurement attempts came to nought.

A breakthrough came only in March 2019, after three years of exhaustive trials, when Elbit’s ATHOS gun was declared the “preferred supplier/vendor” — the MoD’s terminology for the lowest qualified bidder (L-1).

However, a contract is still to be concluded. MoD sources say there is concern within the defence establishment that the low cost of the ATHOS might render the procurement of the indigenous ATAGS problematic later. Both of them are 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns but ATHOS’ cost is far lower.

There are also lower calibre guns under procurement, including the 155 mm, 39-calibre ultralight howitzer, of which 145 pieces are being procured from BAE Systems Inc. Besides that, the OFB is building 140 pieces of the Dhanush 155 mm, 45-calibre gun, which it has developed from the blueprints of the Bofors FH77B howitzer.
No one question brusting of barrel of m777 in 2019 or 2020(year I forgot) but still m777 is God gun and atags is a defective product.
 

Pandeyji

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The Israel offer is too good to be true. This reminds me of the sale where they say 90% off & half the items are defective at the time of purchase itself
 

WolfPack86

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ATAGS howitzer best artillery gun in world, no need for imports, says DRDO
DRDO said the gun system is far better than the legendary Bofors in the Indian Army along with any other artillery guns in the world including the ATHOS gun offered by Israel.

Balaosre
: Maintaining that the ATAGS howitzer is the best gun in the world with the capability to strike targets at the longest range of 48 kilometers, a top DRDO scientist said, the indigenous gun can meet Indian Army’s full requirement of 1800 artillery guns systems and there was no need for imports in this field.

Interacting with ANI during the field trials of the ATAGS which has already fired over 2,000 rounds in places like Sikkim near the China border and Pokharan near the Pakistan border, ATAGS project director and senior Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) scientist Shailendra V Gade said the gun system is far better than the legendary Bofors in the Indian Army along with any other artillery gun in the world including the ATHOS gun offered by Israel.

The Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) has been developed by the DRDO and produced by two firms Bharat Forge and Tata Advanced Systems Limited.

“The Indian Army’s requirement is for 1580 towed artillery guns and apart from that, they need 150 ATAGS and another 114 Dhanush guns. So, there is a requirement of a total of 1,800 guns. The way the ATAGS is performing and come up, I am sure that this entire requirement of 1,800 guns can be met by this gun only,” Gade told ANI. Explaining the edge which the Indian Army would get to vet adversaries like China in a war scenario, Gade said the DRDO-developed gun is the longest firing howitzer in the world with 48 km and this will help it to be safe during a strike against the enemy.

“The enemy won’t be able to counter you as they would not be able to reach you but you can reach them at 48 kilometers. You can be eight kilometers behind their strike range but still hit them,” he said.
Asked if the ATAGS was better than the guns available with China and Pakistan, Gade said, “in fact, this is the best gun in the world because no other country has been able to such a system built on this high-technology with a high rate of firing capability.”

Comparing the advancement of the ATAGS over the legendary Bofors and the rest of the guns in the world, Gade said the ATAGs can fire five rounds in a minute whereas the others can fire only three. “The range is also very high at 48 kilometers whereas the Bofors can fire at 32kms using the same type of round. The mobility is also very high. The gun will be very reliable, maintenance-free and robust,” he said.

The Indian Army is looking at the acquisition of around 1600 artillery guns and was looking at Israeli guns ATHOS as an option for quick induction of 400 pieces.

On being asked to compare the ATAGS with the ATHOS and French Nexter guns, Gade said, “If you look at the qualitative requirements of the ATHOS and Nexter guns, the requirements of the ATAGS are very stringent. So, definitely, the guns systems are not very contemporary. If we look at the future as 2027-2030, the ATAGS is the answer for those times for the Indian Army.”

On being asked whether there was a need for India to import any howitzer from abroad in view of the presence of howitzer, Gade said, “not at all. I feel India as a country, we have developed the core competence and technology is there to meet the country’s requirements for world-class guns.”
 

Killbot

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WolfPack86

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Israel's sales pitch to India: Our artillery gun to support 'Make in India'
Highlighting how important Tel Aviv regards an Indian order for 1,580 artillery guns, worth about Rs 20,000 crore, Israel’s ministry of defence (MoD) has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, pushing the award of a contract to Elbit Systems – the Israeli firm that bid lowest in an Indian global tender for towed guns.

Business Standard has reviewed the letter, which was signed last Tuesday by Brigadier General Yair Kulas, director of Sibat – the Israeli defence ministry agency in charge of defence exports. It expresses concern that no contract has been signed, even though Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder in March 2019 in the tender for 155 millimetre, 52 calibre guns. In July 2019, Elbit successfully concluded price negotiations with India’s MoD.

“(W)e would kindly request your guidance regarding the status of the approval process and the anticipated/planned timeline for the conclusion of the approval process”, writes Sibat.

As Business Standard earlier reported (December 10, Israeli firm Elbit offers to build 70% of artillery gun in India) Elbit priced its Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) gun 40 per cent cheaper than the rival offering from French firm, Nexter.

Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 fully-built ATHOS guns, while Nexter quoted €776 million, say Indian MoD sources. That puts the cost of each ATHOS gun at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore), significantly cheaper than the €1.94 million (~17.3 crore) price of each Nexter gun.

However, Elbit’s main sales pitch is not low cost, but a high degree of indigenisation. The Indian tender requires the first 400 guns to be supplied fully built or in kits, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns are required to be built by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), with at least 50 per cent indigenous content.

On October 14, Elbit provided a written commitment that it would indigenise production to the extent of 70 per cent, including the first 400 guns.

Sibat’s letter indicates that the Israeli government will not restrict technology transfer or impose controls that might prevent Elbit from meeting its indigenisation commitment. “On behalf of the Israeli Ministry of Defence, I would like to take this opportunity… to convey our strong support in Elbit Systems undertaking to contribute to the Make in India initiative”, the letter says.

For meeting this tough 70 per cent indigenisation target, Elbit will take the unprecedented step of setting up two production lines in India. It will partner the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge, for building the first 400 guns. After that, in accordance with the tender requirements, Elbit will transfer technology to the OFB to build the next 1,180 guns.

When production shifts to the OFB, the Kalani Group line will not be idle. Elbit and the Kalyani Group will keep that line alive, building ATHOS guns for the global market.

“According to our understanding, the project will quickly provide highly advanced capabilities to the Indian artillery forces, as well as create numerous new job opportunities and prospects for export to third countries”, wrote Sibat.

According to Elbit, it will succeed in indigenising 70 per cent of the first 400 guns, having already taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies.

Elbit has a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems, and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC. It is also concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad.

The MoD initially preferred the Defence R&D Organisation’s 155 mm, 52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), over Elbit’s ATHOS gun. This became clear when the MoD embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed guns from December 31, 2020.

However, partly because of the ATHOS’ low price and also developmental roadblocks, the MoD changed its mind in favour of the ATHOS. As Business Standard reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) the MoD reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, till December 31, 2021.

The question mark that still hangs over the signing of a contract with Elbit Systems is the reduced availability of funds. Given the Covid-19 related economic slowdown, strict spending controls have been imposed on the defence capital budget, leaving little for anything other than “committed liabilities”, or annual instalments on large contracts concluded in earlier years.
 

Trololo

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Israel's sales pitch to India: Our artillery gun to support 'Make in India'
Highlighting how important Tel Aviv regards an Indian order for 1,580 artillery guns, worth about Rs 20,000 crore, Israel’s ministry of defence (MoD) has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, pushing the award of a contract to Elbit Systems – the Israeli firm that bid lowest in an Indian global tender for towed guns.

Business Standard has reviewed the letter, which was signed last Tuesday by Brigadier General Yair Kulas, director of Sibat – the Israeli defence ministry agency in charge of defence exports. It expresses concern that no contract has been signed, even though Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder in March 2019 in the tender for 155 millimetre, 52 calibre guns. In July 2019, Elbit successfully concluded price negotiations with India’s MoD.

“(W)e would kindly request your guidance regarding the status of the approval process and the anticipated/planned timeline for the conclusion of the approval process”, writes Sibat.

As Business Standard earlier reported (December 10, Israeli firm Elbit offers to build 70% of artillery gun in India) Elbit priced its Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) gun 40 per cent cheaper than the rival offering from French firm, Nexter.

Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 fully-built ATHOS guns, while Nexter quoted €776 million, say Indian MoD sources. That puts the cost of each ATHOS gun at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore), significantly cheaper than the €1.94 million (~17.3 crore) price of each Nexter gun.

However, Elbit’s main sales pitch is not low cost, but a high degree of indigenisation. The Indian tender requires the first 400 guns to be supplied fully built or in kits, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns are required to be built by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), with at least 50 per cent indigenous content.

On October 14, Elbit provided a written commitment that it would indigenise production to the extent of 70 per cent, including the first 400 guns.

Sibat’s letter indicates that the Israeli government will not restrict technology transfer or impose controls that might prevent Elbit from meeting its indigenisation commitment. “On behalf of the Israeli Ministry of Defence, I would like to take this opportunity… to convey our strong support in Elbit Systems undertaking to contribute to the Make in India initiative”, the letter says.

For meeting this tough 70 per cent indigenisation target, Elbit will take the unprecedented step of setting up two production lines in India. It will partner the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge, for building the first 400 guns. After that, in accordance with the tender requirements, Elbit will transfer technology to the OFB to build the next 1,180 guns.

When production shifts to the OFB, the Kalani Group line will not be idle. Elbit and the Kalyani Group will keep that line alive, building ATHOS guns for the global market.

“According to our understanding, the project will quickly provide highly advanced capabilities to the Indian artillery forces, as well as create numerous new job opportunities and prospects for export to third countries”, wrote Sibat.

According to Elbit, it will succeed in indigenising 70 per cent of the first 400 guns, having already taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies.

Elbit has a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems, and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC. It is also concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad.

The MoD initially preferred the Defence R&D Organisation’s 155 mm, 52 calibre Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), over Elbit’s ATHOS gun. This became clear when the MoD embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed guns from December 31, 2020.

However, partly because of the ATHOS’ low price and also developmental roadblocks, the MoD changed its mind in favour of the ATHOS. As Business Standard reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) the MoD reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, till December 31, 2021.

The question mark that still hangs over the signing of a contract with Elbit Systems is the reduced availability of funds. Given the Covid-19 related economic slowdown, strict spending controls have been imposed on the defence capital budget, leaving little for anything other than “committed liabilities”, or annual instalments on large contracts concluded in earlier years.
Those babus who are shilling for the Athos need to be transferred to Indian Salt Service or Ministry of Culture. The military brass shilling for the Athos need to be transferred to Defence Accounts or the RVC training center. Bulldoze them all and order the ATAGS in bulk.
 

Suryavanshi

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Is there a article flowchart that explains indian army procurement process.
Terms like gcc, vcc, GRSQW are too complicated for me
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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Those babus who are shilling for the Athos need to be transferred to Indian Salt Service or Ministry of Culture. The military brass shilling for the Athos need to be transferred to Defence Accounts or the RVC training center. Bulldoze them all and order the ATAGS in bulk.
Who will watch the watchers ?
 

Flying Dagger

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Sarangs, Dhanush, and ATAGS are solid. there is zero need for Athos or any other imported towed howitzer now.
Sarang is upgrade of old guns Dhanush are inducted as stop gap they need to upgrade cal. And it is ATAGS vs Athos

ATAGS are still in Dev / in trials let it clear the trials and meet the army requirements first.

Athos should not be ousted completely and i wont mind having 400 guns inducted with tech transfer and then be used to improve on ATAGS weight and other issues. Remember our requirements are huge and on time delivery from two sources doesn't hurt considering the huge shortfall we are facing.

Though going full on for Athos isn't recommended we must develop our own and export it. Unless we export and earn reputation outside there is no way we can increase our square of influence on other nation.
 

Ayushraj

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Sarang is upgrade of old guns Dhanush are inducted as stop gap they need to upgrade cal. And it is ATAGS vs Athos

ATAGS are still in Dev / in trials let it clear the trials and meet the army requirements first.

Athos should not be ousted completely and i wont mind having 400 guns inducted with tech transfer and then be used to improve on ATAGS weight and other issues. Remember our requirements are huge and on time delivery from two sources doesn't hurt considering the huge shortfall we are facing.

Though going full on for Athos isn't recommended we must develop our own and export it. Unless we export and earn reputation outside there is no way we can increase our square of influence on other nation.
Athos is 13000 kg against 12000 kg atags. Artillery is not like fighter aircraft whose tot will bring huge technological boost in our country. We have bharat 52 , dhanush and atags all artillery outrange athos. We currently have more capable artillery system than athos.
 

Flying Dagger

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Athos is 13000 kg against 12000 kg atags. Artillery is not like fighter aircraft whose tot will bring huge technological boost in our country. We have bharat 52 , dhanush and atags all artillery outrange athos. We currently have more capable artillery system than athos.

Please share the source where the ATAGS weight has been reduced to 12 ton from 18.

Between what we have built is done through Tech transfer for e.g. Dhanush is based on Bofors blueprint while Bharat Forge ATAGS is also from acquired TOT. Anyway please share the source first.
 

SUPERPOWER

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Athos is 13000 kg against 12000 kg atags. Artillery is not like fighter aircraft whose tot will bring huge technological boost in our country. We have bharat 52 , dhanush and atags all artillery outrange athos. We currently have more capable artillery system than athos.
Than also our generals want Athos....Think why....🤤🤤
 

Ayushraj

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Please share the source where the ATAGS weight has been reduced to 12 ton from 18.

Between what we have built is done through Tech transfer for e.g. Dhanush is based on Bofors blueprint while Bharat Forge ATAGS is also from acquired TOT. Anyway please share the source first.
Atags is 18 ton. Bharat 52 is GC-45 (8tonne) which is lighter than athos and it also outrange Athos. We can prefer that if weight is only issue
 

vishnugupt

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Sarang is upgrade of old guns Dhanush are inducted as stop gap they need to upgrade cal. And it is ATAGS vs Athos

ATAGS are still in Dev / in trials let it clear the trials and meet the army requirements first.

Athos should not be ousted completely and i wont mind having 400 guns inducted with tech transfer and then be used to improve on ATAGS weight and other issues. Remember our requirements are huge and on time delivery from two sources doesn't hurt considering the huge shortfall we are facing.

Though going full on for Athos isn't recommended we must develop our own and export it. Unless we export and earn reputation outside there is no way we can increase our square of influence on other nation.
What Tech transfer you need ?? Who needs this Tech? You ?? or Army?? Because DRDO doesn't need any technology from ATHOS.

400 ATHOS while 118 ATAGS only. Why don't you point out lower order for slow production rather than suggesting 400 ATHOS for rapid induction ??

MOD should put ATHOS in the Banned list indefinetely. Period
 

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