Indian Army Artillery

Hari Sud

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Did anything come out of the enquires about muzzle break hardware failure of the Dhanush gun during testing last year?

Was it truly a hardware failure or a defective shell or worst of all Indian army's penchant for imports, deliberately failed it to reject Dhanush? There is nothing in the last few pages of this thread about the accident except German company owned by Chinese deliberately mislabelled as "Made in Germany" and passed on a factitious Chinese product.

Will somebody enlighten us?
 

LondonParisTokyo

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BSF wishing Pakistanis good morning!

Absolutely ridiculous and shows poor discipline IMO. The tech they are using does not look very sophisticated but what if it was? Even then it's revealing capabilities of soldiers and also makes it possible to identify their location. In addition, it is quite childish "Pakistan good morning!" Nobody cares. This should be kept to an absolute minimum.
 

ezsasa

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I saw a video with interview of Baba Kalyani by NDTV. Baba Kalyani mentioned he had made a barrel for T-72 tank from his own funds and willing to send it to army for testing.

I believe when he can make wheels for all T-72 tanks, he must be given the opportunity to make barrels as well. It will save a lot of foreign currency.

Also government should clarify his queries regarding export permissions so hate he can earn valuable foreign currency. I hope his interview video reach MoD.
FYI

Baba is on defence manufacturing committee of “Make in India”, if he wants to say something to govt he will say directly to PM or RM.

Most of the things this committee had asked for has already been done by govt.
 

ezsasa

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Could you give some examples- the suggestions and implementations that is.
Few examples off top of my head:

1) relaxation in defence FDI
2) allowing domestic manufacturers in ammunition manufacturing
3) availability of test ranges for domestic private defence companies
4) concept of strategic defence partner for private companies
5) majority of the points from DPP 2016.

There might be more points, but list has to be prepared from multiple news articles.
 

aarav

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Absolutely ridiculous and shows poor discipline IMO. The tech they are using does not look very sophisticated but what if it was? Even then it's revealing capabilities of soldiers and also makes it possible to identify their location. In addition, it is quite childish "Pakistan good morning!" Nobody cares. This should be kept to an absolute minimum.
It is just a 81mm mortar position ,nothing special ,other things to keep yourself motivated
 

Arihant Roy

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Even Dhanush barrel is supplied by Kalyani steel....... Jai ho govt ordnance factory board ki.
OFB is not for forging barrel.

M777 barrel is manufactured by Watervliet Arsenal. So should we also say, jay ho BAE system ki???
Both of you guys are absolutely wrong.

Firstly, Dhanush barrel is not supplied by Kalyani steel

Secondly, OFB does forge and manufacture barrels

I myself have done my internship at an OFB plant which is the starting point for all barrels meant for T-72,T-90,IFG,LFG,M46 upgunning project, FH-77B and Dhanush. All of these barrels are forged here. Here all the above mentioned barrels are forged from raw material stage and then heat treated and machined. Then these barrels are sent to other plants in Kanpur where they undergo further processing and emerge as the finished barrel. The barrels which are supplied by this plant are known an PYT forge. All of the Dhanush howitzers which have been manufactured till date have their barrels manufactured at this plant. And facilities have also come up to produce certain sections of Pinaka rocket casings here.

So, OFB does manufacture barrels for tank cannons, field guns and howitzers.

T-90 and T-72 cannons have the same alloy composition and underfo the same metallurgical processes. It's just that their outer dimensions like the breech block differ.

T-72's 2A46 cannon barrel is forged here to replace the barrels whose technical lives have exhausted.

FH77B 39 called barrels are forged here too. With prolonged and heavy usage the original barrels from Sweden have completed their lives. So spare barrels need to be manufactured now.

During my time there, two FH-77B barrels, one Dhanush and a single M-46 upgunning barrel was being manufactured. Besides T-72 and IFG barrels were also being manufactured.


And I have seen the entire process with my own eyes and believe me when I say, forging a barrel, then heat treating and machining it, it's a hugely complicated, laborious and time consuming process. It's not exactly easy and simple. So when people talk about producing barrels like one barrel per day as if it's a chair or table, I do find it hilarious.
 
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Chinmoy

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Both of you guys are absolutely wrong.

Firstly, Dhanush barrel is not supplied by Kalyani steel

Secondly, OFB does forge and manufacture barrels

I myself have done my internship at an OFB plant which is the starting point for all barrels meant for T-72,T-90,IFG,LFG,M46 upgunning project, FH-77B and Dhanush. All of these barrels are forged here. Here all the above mentioned barrels are forged from raw material stage and then heat treated and machined. Then these barrels are sent to other plants in Kanpur where they undergo further processing and emerge as the finished barrel. The barrels which are supplied by this plant are known an PYT forge. All of the Dhanush howitzers which have been manufactured till date have their barrels manufactured at this plant. And facilities have also come up to produce certain sections of Pinaka rocket casings here.

So, OFB does manufacture barrels for tank cannons, field guns and howitzers.

T-90 and T-72 cannons have the same alloy composition and underfo the same metallurgical processes. It's just that their outer dimensions like the breech block differ.

T-72's 2A46 cannon barrel is forged here to replace the barrels whose technical lives have exhausted.

FH77B 39 called barrels are forged here too. With prolonged and heavy usage the original barrels from Sweden have completed their lives. So spare barrels need to be manufactured now.

During my time there, two FH-77B barrels and a single M-46 upgunning barrel was being manufactured.


And I have seen the entire process with my own eyes and believe me when I say, forging a barrel, then heat treating and machining it, it's a hugely complicated, laborious and time consuming process. It's not exactly easy and simple. So when people talk about producing barrels like one barrel per day as if it's a chair or table, I do find it a bit funny.
Thats something new for me. Thanks. Never thought that OFB is into metallurgy and forging. Anyway which factory of OFB does this? Kanpur?

Apart from T series and Haubits and most probably INSAS too, what other barrels does they are into?
 

Arihant Roy

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Thats something new for me. Thanks. Never thought that OFB is into metallurgy and forging. Anyway which factory of OFB does this? Kanpur?

Apart from T series and Haubits and most probably INSAS too, what other barrels does they are into?
The semi finished barrel goes to Kanpur for further machining. There are many plants there. The plant where the barrel goes depends on the barrel. I don't know the details here.
The barrels are first forged in Metal and Steel Factory, Ishapore. I just know what happens in MSF. 30 mm cartridge casings for BMP-2 are also manufactured here.
 

Tanmay

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Both of you guys are absolutely wrong.

Firstly, Dhanush barrel is not supplied by Kalyani steel

Secondly, OFB does forge and manufacture barrels

I myself have done my internship at an OFB plant which is the starting point for all barrels meant for T-72,T-90,IFG,LFG,M46 upgunning project, FH-77B and Dhanush. All of these barrels are forged here. Here all the above mentioned barrels are forged from raw material stage and then heat treated and machined. Then these barrels are sent to other plants in Kanpur where they undergo further processing and emerge as the finished barrel. The barrels which are supplied by this plant are known an PYT forge. All of the Dhanush howitzers which have been manufactured till date have their barrels manufactured at this plant. And facilities have also come up to produce certain sections of Pinaka rocket casings here.

So, OFB does manufacture barrels for tank cannons, field guns and howitzers.

T-90 and T-72 cannons have the same alloy composition and underfo the same metallurgical processes. It's just that their outer dimensions like the breech block differ.

T-72's 2A46 cannon barrel is forged here to replace the barrels whose technical lives have exhausted.

FH77B 39 called barrels are forged here too. With prolonged and heavy usage the original barrels from Sweden have completed their lives. So spare barrels need to be manufactured now.

During my time there, two FH-77B barrels, one Dhanush and a single M-46 upgunning barrel was being manufactured. Besides T-72 and IFG barrels were also being manufactured.


And I have seen the entire process with my own eyes and believe me when I say, forging a barrel, then heat treating and machining it, it's a hugely complicated, laborious and time consuming process. It's not exactly easy and simple. So when people talk about producing barrels like one barrel per day as if it's a chair or table, I do find it hilarious.
Excellent insight:)
Just a few queries.
How's the speed/work culture/general OFB employee dedication.
Are the manufacturing and testing facilities updated with new tech ? Or is it the same as installed decades ago.
And any other insights into what goes in normal OFB workday.
 

Arihant Roy

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Excellent insight:)
Just a few queries.
How's the speed/work culture/general OFB employee dedication.
Are the manufacturing and testing facilities updated with new tech ? Or is it the same as installed decades ago.
And any other insights into what goes in normal OFB workday.
Thank you.

Let's first start with the infusion of new tech in the manufacturing sector.

Over the years the various workshops and facilities have been progressively updated with newer equipment with higher productivity, better precision and end product quality and lesser human intervention.

The most interesting of this is the Radial Forging workshop. It was established recently. Earlier the slug/ingot were sent to the New Gun Forge section just after casting. In NGF the rectangular ingots are transformed into cylindrical pieces of the desired dimension. Despite the name NGF is quite old. Here there is a 2650 ton Hydraulic press. The material, workpiece received is first heated in an electrical furnace for a certain time, then transferred to aBogie Hearth oil fired forging Furnace for another round of heating for more than 24 hours. Then the heated workpiece is transferred to the press which takes over an hour to forge the workpiece into a cylindrical piece with the required dimension. The surface finish is average.

Now there's the RFS. Here a new radial forging machine from Austria has been installed in 2011. It takes just 8-10 minutes to forge the required material. It's fully automated with minimal operator intervention.. the previous 24 hour pre heating and heating cycle has been considerably reduced here to a lesser duration. This is an amazing machine and the sight of the entire process will just leave you speechless. Once a front loader unloads the 8-10 m red hot ingot to the loading tray of the machine, claws pick it up and then transfers it to a rolling line. Once the red ingot reaches the hammer section, it is rotated and all the while four hammers/anvils continuously pound on the surface from all four sides thus changing the cross section. This entire process takes a max of 10 min and the surface finish of the finished workpiece is top notch. The precision achieved is also much higher than achieved in NGF.



After heat treatment, every barrel bends considerably. So they need to be heated again and subjected to a bend correction machine. This is a Hydraulic operated machine, from the 60s. It bends certain sections of the barrel in the opposite direction and after many such bends the barrel get straightened. It is manually operated and after every de bending operation you have to manually measure by how much the barrel has been straightened and then repeat it again.

In 2015 a new CNC controlled bend correction machine from Italy was installed. Once you place the barrel it automatically detects and measures the amount of bend and then starts the straightening process. It is much quicker than the manual process but it can't straighten beyond a certain degree. So in case of long barrels first the barrel is straightened manually in the old press upto a degree. Then it is loaded on this new piece of equipment.

Then the furnaces where the heat treatment takes place are replaced with newer updated models after certain periods so as to mitigate obsolescence.

A brand new GHT. Gun heat treatment section with higher capacity fandango automated furnaces is being set up here. I did my internship in '16. I guess the facility is up and running by now.


Now coming to the work culture, let me just say these people aren't exactly workaholics. They are quite relaxed but they aren't slouchs either. At the end of every month the work target in terms of no of barrels to be produced next month is formulated by the management. The workforce operates at a carefully measured pace so as to complete this target. You will never find them completing their targets before targets before time and manufacturing more.

There is a break of one hour after lunch which you won't find in the private sector. This is after the lunch break of 50 minutes.

MSF is one of the two-three installations in India which has a Electro Slag refining unit. ESR. The steel required to manufacture heavy calibre barrels is of the highest quality you will find anywhere and ESR helps you to achieve a purity rate greater than 99.8 percent. ESR supplied steel is used only for FH77B and Dhanush barrels. Electro Slag refining helps you to obtain steel without any non metallic inclusions and Oxygen, Sulphur and Phosphorus impurities. S and P is very bad for steel and espy when the steel is to be used for forging barrels. Sulphur causes hot shortness and phosphorus causes cold shortness in steel and hence must be removed completely. This is where ER comes in.

Since the heat treatment cycle can last anywhere between five to 40 hours, the plant never stops operating. Most of the sections like the ESR and GHT operate 24x7. MSF doesn't sleep. It's a gargantuan beast which lumbers on through the night and never takes a break.


And this is very important to add. In fact more important than the rest of this article. I am a foodie and I must say the food here is excellent. I have done internships in other Central Govt and pvt institutions in this sector and nowhere did I find the meals as wholesome a day delicious as in MSF. And the food is partially subsidised for the employees.
Afterall, an Army can't march on empty stomach, can it?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Cheer up, Cheer everyone up .. that is the moto, you may find it different but its worth watching for me and many others from service or ex-service ..

Simple, stupid and ease of maintenance is what preferred by Military, We absolutely hate / dislike and don`t want anything sophisticated at ground level ..

If you don`t have a clue about my words, than you are in wrong place ..

Absolutely ridiculous and shows poor discipline IMO. The tech they are using does not look very sophisticated but what if it was? Even then it's revealing capabilities of soldiers and also makes it possible to identify their location. In addition, it is quite childish "Pakistan good morning!" Nobody cares. This should be kept to an absolute minimum.
 

Hari Sud

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Can somebody educate us on what is the difference between TATA made ATAGS artillery gun and Kalyani made artillery gun? They both have very similar capabilities. They both have cloaked 47 Km range. Hence what is the difference or similarities.
 

Adioz

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Can somebody educate us on what is the difference between TATA made ATAGS artillery gun and Kalyani made artillery gun? They both have very similar capabilities. They both have cloaked 47 Km range. Hence what is the difference or similarities.
AFAIK, the barrel for both is made by OFB. Rest of the subsystems are all different. Kalyani uses more imported content (APU, etc is imported). TATA uses Indian APU. Not sure but from what I remember, TATA ATAGS does not have auto-loader.

Both of you guys are absolutely wrong.

Firstly, Dhanush barrel is not supplied by Kalyani steel

Secondly, OFB does forge and manufacture barrels

I myself have done my internship at an OFB plant which is the starting point for all barrels meant for T-72,T-90,IFG,LFG,M46 upgunning project, FH-77B and Dhanush. All of these barrels are forged here. Here all the above mentioned barrels are forged from raw material stage and then heat treated and machined. Then these barrels are sent to other plants in Kanpur where they undergo further processing and emerge as the finished barrel. The barrels which are supplied by this plant are known an PYT forge. All of the Dhanush howitzers which have been manufactured till date have their barrels manufactured at this plant. And facilities have also come up to produce certain sections of Pinaka rocket casings here.

So, OFB does manufacture barrels for tank cannons, field guns and howitzers.

T-90 and T-72 cannons have the same alloy composition and underfo the same metallurgical processes. It's just that their outer dimensions like the breech block differ.

T-72's 2A46 cannon barrel is forged here to replace the barrels whose technical lives have exhausted.

FH77B 39 called barrels are forged here too. With prolonged and heavy usage the original barrels from Sweden have completed their lives. So spare barrels need to be manufactured now.

During my time there, two FH-77B barrels, one Dhanush and a single M-46 upgunning barrel was being manufactured. Besides T-72 and IFG barrels were also being manufactured.


And I have seen the entire process with my own eyes and believe me when I say, forging a barrel, then heat treating and machining it, it's a hugely complicated, laborious and time consuming process. It's not exactly easy and simple. So when people talk about producing barrels like one barrel per day as if it's a chair or table, I do find it hilarious.
So autofrettage happens in Kanpur OFB?
 
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