Indian Army Artillery

[Flame Thrower]

Brahmos is being developed as air version and being Integrated with SU-30MKI, I wonder, when the Pinaka's air version will be developed? And when AN-32/LCH modified to fire 6 pack Pinaka? This can give tremendous boost to artillery cover in remote location where the artillery cannot be moved immediately. India is owner of Pinaka Technology and free to alter or modify it.... The technology has to be developed to integrate it with AN-32 or LCH is the political decision but we must also developed air version of Prahar Missile.....

AN-32 is a transport aircraft and LCH is gunship...

Do you want Pinaka to be air dropped or fired from a fighter/gunship...

Now Prahar is a tactical ballistic missile, to fire it fighter you have to modify it so much that it will become a new missile...

We already have Brahmos to take care of targets and no new missile is needed..

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

AN-32 is a transport aircraft and LCH is gunship...

Do you want Pinaka to be air dropped or fired from a fighter/gunship...

Now Prahar is a tactical ballistic missile, to fire it fighter you have to modify it so much that it will become a new missile...

We already have Brahmos to take care of targets and no new missile is needed..

Sir, nothing against you but I differ;
I believe that transport aircrafts can be altered to be used as bombers...
Now, we cannot use a missile from aircraft or SU-30MKI unless there is an air version...

The range, the weight of explosive, and purpose of the missile along with the price make it necessary to use various missiles.

The ATGMs are different from anti-bunkers though you can use ATGMs for bunkers...
So, now the cost of Brahmos is US$ 2.73 million where as the cost of Pinaka is $ 0.58 million. India also has to use the missiles cost effectively. Please note both prices are taken from wikipedia... Also India must perfect the art of integrating the missile with air-platforms. We do not have all technology of Brahmos its assembles here... please correct me if I am wrong...

Now Prahar and Pinaka have different range so they can be fired from inside Indian border to attack targets in Paki territories.....

Now my views can be wrong because I am not an expert...

Anyway thanks for your reply

 

[indiandefencefan]

Sir, nothing against you but I differ;
I believe that transport aircrafts can be altered to be used as bombers...
Now, we cannot use a missile from aircraft or SU-30MKI unless there is an air version...

The range, the weight of explosive, and purpose of the missile along with the price make it necessary to use various missiles.

The ATGMs are different from anti-bunkers though you can use ATGMs for bunkers...
So, now the cost of Brahmos is US$ 2.73 million where as the cost of Pinaka is $ 0.58 million. India also has to use the missiles cost effectively. Please note both prices are taken from wikipedia... Also India must perfect the art of integrating the missile with air-platforms. We do not have all technology of Brahmos its assembles here... please correct me if I am wrong...

Now Prahar and Pinaka have different range so they can be fired from inside Indian border to attack targets in Paki territories.....

Now my views can be wrong because I am not an expert...

Anyway thanks for your reply

Dude, a six pack Pinaka battery is too large and heavy to be slung under su-30mki, an-32 or LCH.

Look at the size of just one battery.
Its not even a matter of weight.
Where will you fit a battery? The LCH's wings cant fit anything that size neither can a su-30 or an-32 as their wings can shear off due to the weight and even if it does somehow carry it, the battery will screw up the aerodynamics creating an insurmountable amount of drag on the aircraft vastly decreasing flight efficiency.

Look how the rocket pods are streamlined to be aerodynamic.

Sorry mate but the Pinaka was designed to be a ground system meant to saturate large tracts of hostile territory with sustained missile fire. This is also not possible from the air due to inability to reload the battery once fired.

If they do decide to make an air launched Pinaka (which I am pretty sure they won't) it will be the most stupid thing DRDO has ever done.

 

[hardip]

Sir, nothing against you but I differ;
I believe that transport aircrafts can be altered to be used as bombers...
Now, we cannot use a missile from aircraft or SU-30MKI unless there is an air version...

The range, the weight of explosive, and purpose of the missile along with the price make it necessary to use various missiles.

The ATGMs are different from anti-bunkers though you can use ATGMs for bunkers...
So, now the cost of Brahmos is US$ 2.73 million where as the cost of Pinaka is $ 0.58 million. India also has to use the missiles cost effectively. Please note both prices are taken from wikipedia... Also India must perfect the art of integrating the missile with air-platforms. We do not have all technology of Brahmos its assembles here... please correct me if I am wrong...

Now Prahar and Pinaka have different range so they can be fired from inside Indian border to attack targets in Paki territories.....

Now my views can be wrong because I am not an expert...

Anyway thanks for your reply

I think u never hered about
NEWTON'S and his LAW

"every action has equal and Opposite Reaction.. "

how aerial platform(as u says) fly without any recoil... ?!

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

Dude, a six pack Pinaka battery is too large and heavy to be slung under su-30mki, an-32 or LCH.

Look at the size of just one battery.
Its not even a matter of weight.
Where will you fit a battery? The LCH's wings cant fit anything that size neither can a su-30 or an-32 as their wings can shear off due to the weight and even if it does somehow carry it, the battery will screw up the aerodynamics creating an insurmountable amount of drag on the aircraft vastly decreasing flight efficiency.
View attachment 14118
Look how the rocket pods are streamlined to be aerodynamic.

Sorry mate but the Pinaka was designed to be a ground system meant to saturate large tracts of hostile territory with sustained missile fire. This is also not possible from the air due to inability to reload the battery once fired.

If they do decide to make an air launched Pinaka (which I am pretty sure they won't) it will be the most stupid thing DRDO has ever done.

Agreed

that it will be too heavy for SU-30MKI but then we should not have all chickens in one basket the fundamental strategy.

As per the specification of the AN-32

Empty weight: 16,800 kg (37,038 lb)

• Max. takeoff weight: 27,000 kg (59,400 lb)
  

So, I believe that AN-32 can take 10tonnes or 10000Kgs of weight.

The details of Pinaka given are


Range

7 km - 42 km (4.4 - 26 mi)


Length

4.95 m (16.24 ft)


Rocket Diameter

214 mm (8.42 in)

Warhead weight

100 kg (220 lbs)

Total weight

276 kg (608 lbs)


So as per specification 6 pack of the pinaka will weigh 276x6=1656Kgs and they can be inside fuselage and come out one by one....


Also the air versions are usually lighter....


This was the reason why I argued.....



Now, the AN-32 has to be modified to fire missiles. This can be managed as AN-32 is Ukraine can also sell the design and technology, we can redesign and manufacture new ground attack missile airship.....


basically we should also arm other aircrafts other than SU-30MKI

Russia wants to put all arms on SU-30MKI because then there will be a need to buy more SU-30... but we have to develop capacity to design and manufacture in India while arming our forces. Made in India will always be better because any Indian manufacturer will not try to interfere with unity and sovereignty of India and that is more Important.

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

I think u never hered about
NEWTON'S and his LAW

"every action has equal and Opposite Reaction.. "

how aerial platform(as u says) fly without any recoil... ?!

That is the reason why the areal missiles are different they drop at speed and fire so that it does not give jerk to the areal platforms or if any it is manageable.
now if you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130

you can read following lines
"The Air Force decided to add a 105 mm cannon to the AC-130J in addition to the 30 mm cannon and smart bombs, the shells being more accurate and cheaper than dropping SDBs."

Sir, don't you think a 105 mm cannon will have a recoil? but managing with it is developing technology. Americans start design with such Ideas so they have the technology.

I can be wrong because I am not an expert may be I will learn from you by interaction.

Thanks for response

 

[Adioz]

Sir, nothing against you but I differ;
I believe that transport aircrafts can be altered to be used as bombers...
Now, we cannot use a missile from aircraft or SU-30MKI unless there is an air version...

The range, the weight of explosive, and purpose of the missile along with the price make it necessary to use various missiles.

The ATGMs are different from anti-bunkers though you can use ATGMs for bunkers...
So, now the cost of Brahmos is US$ 2.73 million where as the cost of Pinaka is $ 0.58 million. India also has to use the missiles cost effectively. Please note both prices are taken from wikipedia... Also India must perfect the art of integrating the missile with air-platforms. We do not have all technology of Brahmos its assembles here... please correct me if I am wrong...

Now Prahar and Pinaka have different range so they can be fired from inside Indian border to attack targets in Paki territories.....

Now my views can be wrong because I am not an expert...

Anyway thanks for your reply

Agreed

that it will be too heavy for SU-30MKI but then we should not have all chickens in one basket the fundamental strategy.

As per the specification of the AN-32

Empty weight: 16,800 kg (37,038 lb)

• Max. takeoff weight: 27,000 kg (59,400 lb)

So, I believe that AN-32 can take 10tonnes or 10000Kgs of weight.

The details of Pinaka given are


Range

7 km - 42 km (4.4 - 26 mi)


Length

4.95 m (16.24 ft)


Rocket Diameter

214 mm (8.42 in)

Warhead weight

100 kg (220 lbs)

Total weight

276 kg (608 lbs)


So as per specification 6 pack of the pinaka will weigh 276x6=1656Kgs and they can be inside fuselage and come out one by one....


Also the air versions are usually lighter....


This was the reason why I argued.....



Now, the AN-32 has to be modified to fire missiles. This can be managed as AN-32 is Ukraine can also sell the design and technology, we can redesign and manufacture new ground attack missile airship.....


basically we should also arm other aircrafts other than SU-30MKI

Russia wants to put all arms on SU-30MKI because then there will be a need to buy more SU-30... but we have to develop capacity to design and manufacture in India while arming our forces. Made in India will always be better because any Indian manufacturer will not try to interfere with unity and sovereignty of India and that is more Important.

An-32 and other transport aircraft have long been used as heavy bombers by Indian Air Force (and other world air forces as well).
Pinaka barrage is just as deadly as a carpet bombing run by our transport aircraft. Look:-

IAF’s Innovative use of Transporters as Heavy Bombers
Pinaka warhead weight is 250 kg.
Aircraft can carry heavier bombs. These bombs can be turned into Guided bombs by a kit DRDO has developed.
An-32 bombing run:-
Su-30MKI bombing run:-


Pinaka is a system to deliver 250 kg warhead to distances upto 75 km. These are meant to deliver volume firepower in a short time span.
The IAF Transport aircraft are another system that can deliver 250kg or greater warheads upto hundreds of km. These are also meant to deliver volume firepower in a short time span. They can also be used to hit multiple precise targets that are kilometers apart.

Edit: Pinaka warhead weight is 100kg, not 250 kg.

 

[indiandefencefan]

Agreed

that it will be too heavy for SU-30MKI but then we should not have all chickens in one basket the fundamental strategy.

As per the specification of the AN-32

Empty weight: 16,800 kg (37,038 lb)

• Max. takeoff weight: 27,000 kg (59,400 lb)

So, I believe that AN-32 can take 10tonnes or 10000Kgs of weight.

The details of Pinaka given are


Range

7 km - 42 km (4.4 - 26 mi)


Length

4.95 m (16.24 ft)


Rocket Diameter

214 mm (8.42 in)

Warhead weight

100 kg (220 lbs)

Total weight

276 kg (608 lbs)


So as per specification 6 pack of the pinaka will weigh 276x6=1656Kgs and they can be inside fuselage and come out one by one....


Also the air versions are usually lighter....


This was the reason why I argued.....



Now, the AN-32 has to be modified to fire missiles. This can be managed as AN-32 is Ukraine can also sell the design and technology, we can redesign and manufacture new ground attack missile airship.....


basically we should also arm other aircrafts other than SU-30MKI

Russia wants to put all arms on SU-30MKI because then there will be a need to buy more SU-30... but we have to develop capacity to design and manufacture in India while arming our forces. Made in India will always be better because any Indian manufacturer will not try to interfere with unity and sovereignty of India and that is more Important.

True. The load capacity of the An-32 might allow it to carry the Pinaka.

However arming an an-32 with Pinaka (whether internal or external) also goes against another central tenet of the Pinaka's use.

That is saturation fire.
A Pinaka launcher is always accompanied by resupply vehicles allowing for a battery to release vast volumes of missiles at the target in a short span of time.
An an-32 does not have this liberty as in order to reload it will have to land.
This will be break the purpose of saturation fire and make repeated flights expensive.


Other weapons can do a similar job at lower cost.
One example is carpet bombing as @Adioz mentioned.

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

An-32 and other transport aircraft have long been used as heavy bombers by Indian Air Force (and other world air forces as well).
Pinaka barrage is just as deadly as a carpet bombing run by our transport aircraft. Look:-

IAF’s Innovative use of Transporters as Heavy Bombers
Pinaka warhead weight is 250 kg.
Aircraft can carry heavier bombs. These bombs can be turned into Guided bombs by a kit DRDO has developed.
An-32 bombing run:-
Su-30MKI bombing run:-


Pinaka is a system to deliver 250 kg warhead to distances upto 75 km. These are meant to deliver volume firepower in a short time span.
The IAF Transport aircraft are another system that can deliver 250kg or greater warheads upto hundreds of km. These are also meant to deliver volume firepower in a short time span. They can also be used to hit multiple precise targets that are kilometers apart.

Edit: Pinaka warhead weight is 100kg, not 250 kg.

Thanks for the videos. I had not known these stuff....

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

True. The load capacity of the An-32 might allow it to carry the Pinaka.

However arming an an-32 with Pinaka (whether internal or external) also goes against another central tenet of the Pinaka's use.

That is saturation fire.
A Pinaka launcher is always accompanied by resupply vehicles allowing for a battery to release vast volumes of missiles at the target in a short span of time.
An an-32 does not have this liberty as in order to reload it will have to land.
This will be break the purpose of saturation fire and make repeated flights expensive.


Other weapons can do a similar job at lower cost.
One example is carpet bombing as @Adioz mentioned.

Thanks for the reply

But sir, when we make the air version for AN-32 we can change design parameters and objectives from existing Pinaka. The basic aim is to get rid of the imported missiles and get freedom from dependence on foreign power for our arms need.

 

[tharun]

An-32 moving at height of 600m will be a juicy target for anti-aircraft guns,stingers and...

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

An-32 moving at height of 600m will be a juicy target for anti-aircraft guns,stingers and...

Yes sir,
but it will not be a target if its 25 kms away and flying at 600m

 

[indiandefencefan]

Thanks for the reply

But sir, when we make the air version for AN-32 we can change design parameters and objectives from existing Pinaka. The basic aim is to get rid of the imported missiles and get freedom from dependence on foreign power for our arms need.

We can.

But this is an expensive undertaking which will require lots of money for R&D of both modifications to the Pinaka and the An-32 air-frame. The Indian military works on a limited budget and money is scarce.
We are barely able to fund the Rafale purchase and have two more tenders for 200+ plus aircraft lined up and not many mention other important projects (LCA, S400, MRSAM etc.) and money is needed for those projects well.
There simply aren't enough resources to fund expensive and complex redesigns like these.

oh and please don't call me sir.

 

[tharun]

Yes sir,
but it will not be a target if its 25 kms away and flying at 600m

First thing don't call me sir.......................
Second thing i'm talking about is when AN-32 is near to it's objective then it will be in great danger.

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

We can.

But this is an expensive undertaking which will require lots of money for R&D of both modifications to the Pinaka and the An-32 air-frame. The Indian military works on a limited budget and money is scarce.
We are barely able to fund the Rafale purchase and have two more tenders for 200+ plus aircraft lined up and not many mention other important projects (LCA, S400, MRSAM etc.) and money is needed for those projects well.
There simply aren't enough resources to fund expensive and complex redesigns like these.

oh and please don't call me sir.

Sorry If I have hurt you by calling you sir.
but, as a habit; I rather than calling Mr. I address people as sir.

Now the topic...
I meant is that we are in an era of AWACS based wars and the targets will be beyond visual range driven by GPS location. It brings safety of the forces. If the war is to be played by firing a missile only on seeing target you are correct and I am wrong.

The other point I say is that if we do not go for research in future technology and keep buying new systems(as we are in deficit of arms) we will never have money for any new system and we will be trapped in the buying cycles. Remember UPA did not have adequate bullets for a war for 15 days forget the artillery rounds. And this was the very reason we stopped playing cricket with Pakistan rather than answering in the language they understand(the answer to Kasab attack on Mumbai).

Did you read the MMRCA and who had planned it and what was the purpose?
Actually, instead of buying an engine for Tejas we Bharat Ratna Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam had an idea, that, since no nation, will sell Jet engine technology, we will put up a tender for Engine technology for Tejas laced with aircraft purchase; but, some officers up there, removed the technology clause for Tejas, and thus it became MMRCA. The engine technology did not come nor did we develop and now we are seeking it from France under offset clause.

But, I believe that there are people who will take bribes from foreign powers to declare that there are no funds for research, or, no money for Indian Products, eg Arjun Tank was once declared dud till the back boxes were installed and conversation(inside the tank at testing time) was illegally taped by DRDO and shown to the Defence minister then suddenly it became better than T-90 but now weight is issue.

So, I do not believe in what such officers say.

Now, gentleman you can be correct and I can be wrong I am biased against Government statement and I am not an expert. I hope the word gentleman does not agonise you. If it does sorry again.

and sorry if I have hurt anyone. Let me be clear I do not have any intention to hurt anyone. If I hurt I will not be able to discuss I will be just quarrelling.

anyway thanks for response

 

[indiandefencefan]

Sorry If I have hurt you by calling you sir.
but, as a habit; I rather than calling Mr. I address people as sir.

Now the topic...
I meant is that we are in an era of AWACS based wars and the targets will be beyond visual range driven by GPS location. It brings safety of the forces. If the war is to be played by firing a missile only on seeing target you are correct and I am wrong.

The other point I say is that if we do not go for research in future technology and keep buying new systems(as we are in deficit of arms) we will never have money for any new system and we will be trapped in the buying cycles. Remember UPA did not have adequate bullets for a war for 15 days forget the artillery rounds. And this was the very reason we stopped playing cricket with Pakistan rather than answering in the language they understand(the answer to Kasab attack on Mumbai).

Did you read the MMRCA and who had planned it and what was the purpose?
Actually, instead of buying an engine for Tejas we Bharat Ratna Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam had an idea, that, since no nation, will sell Jet engine technology, we will put up a tender for Engine technology for Tejas laced with aircraft purchase; but, some officers up there, removed the technology clause for Tejas, and thus it became MMRCA. The engine technology did not come nor did we develop and now we are seeking it from France under offset clause.

But, I believe that there are people who will take bribes from foreign powers to declare that there are no funds for research, or, no money for Indian Products, eg Arjun Tank was once declared dud till the back boxes were installed and conversation(inside the tank at testing time) was illegally taped by DRDO and shown to the Defence minister then suddenly it became better than T-90 but now weight is issue.

So, I do not believe in what such officers say.

Now, gentleman you can be correct and I can be wrong I am biased against Government statement and I am not an expert. I hope the word gentleman does not agonise you. If it does sorry again.

and sorry if I have hurt anyone. Let me be clear I do not have any intention to hurt anyone. If I hurt I will not be able to discuss I will be just quarrelling.

anyway thanks for response

Please don't worry I was not offended at all by you calling me sir. Only that I don't believe myself to be old or knowledgeable enough to be awarded with the title.

I agree with your points and many mistakes have been committed in the past and unfortunately we cannot rectify them. Only try to minimize the damage.

We live in a society in which corruption is the norm. High level corruption in the government grabs the spotlight but it permeates down to the most basic aspects of society. In all parts of the country criminal offenders are equally willing to give a bribe as law enforcement agencies are wiling to accept it.

It is this environment that foreign vendors take advantage of to give bribes to secure contracts. Instead of first pointing fingers at the firms and blacklisting them, we fail to introspect about the conditions at home which are conductive to such a scenario.
Unfortunately this is a problem which can only go with the passing of generations and hopefully once such corruption at the most basic level has been rooted out defence procurement can be up to standard and be free of kickbacks and bad choices made to favor international vendors.

I only find the last part of argument to be inaccurate. Money is indeed scarce but corruption is not a drain on the budget. Corruption largely involves middlemen and companies paying off the people in charge of the tendering process.

On a last note, we live in democracy and while opinions might not be favorable to the government or the establishment we still need trust it and use our right to speech to voice our concerns. Once we stop trusting the establishment its power gets eroded. If the establishment loses power non-state actors use this void to cause carnage. Just look at J&K and East India where this lack of trust has led to independence and communist/naxalite insurgencies.
No matter ho much we get frustrated at the establishment we still need to believe in it.

Sorry for the off topic post guys.

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

I only find the last part of argument to be inaccurate. Money is indeed scarce but corruption is not a drain on the budget. Corruption largely involves middlemen and companies paying off the people in charge of the tendering process.

I can be wrong, but, corruption in Government, leads to inefficient allocation of scarce resources, including, asking for non-necessary items, in numbers and not having funds for the real stuff eg. we did not have war wastage reserves for 15 days. after 10 days or so what is the soldier going to do if he has no bullets to fire what is the use of the guns when there are no bullets to fire....

eg during Kargil hostilities we did not have the ammunition for Bofors and we had to import it as we were not manufacturing it, and we were not able to eject Pakistani's till we could import it. This was one of the reason why it took so long to end the hostilities.

Secondly, if bribes are paid they are paid by inflating the prices to which the Govt. is forced to agree. (please note no contractor pays bribes from his pocket he pays by inflating bills)

eg. we purchased Mirage 2000 in 80s then we did not purchase any ammunition for it for 6 to 8 years we were flying it without any ammunition other than gun. The missiles we had, were not integrated with Mirage 2000. Now, you tell me if purchase of Mirage 2000, without ammunition was not just useless, but it also stopped us from purchasing other ammunition/equipments. Such is the outcome of corruption.

So, corruption leads to mis-allocation of resources, and create artificial scarcity.

That is the reason that I differ from your view "Money is indeed scarce but corruption is not a drain on the budget."

Corruption is not just drain on budget it also leads to mis-allocation of resources.

 

[Bornubus]

Any other instances when Rockets (Tubed) were mounted on Transport Aircraft or even Bombers.


A single rocket projectile weight 70 ~ Kg and looks very aerodynamic to drop from the air lol


And considering the MLRS works best in batteries/ numbers and in Barrage mode for being inaccurate, an entire squadron of AN 32 must be needed (if this is not a mere pipe dream) and Rocket Pod on LCH equal to the size Of Khali to fire such rocket.

 

[indiandefencefan]

I can be wrong, but, corruption in Government, leads to inefficient allocation of scarce resources, including, asking for non-necessary items, in numbers and not having funds for the real stuff eg. we did not have war wastage reserves for 15 days. after 10 days or so what is the soldier going to do if he has no bullets to fire what is the use of the guns when there are no bullets to fire....

eg during Kargil hostilities we did not have the ammunition for Bofors and we had to import it as we were not manufacturing it, and we were not able to eject Pakistani's till we could import it. This was one of the reason why it took so long to end the hostilities.

Secondly, if bribes are paid they are paid by inflating the prices to which the Govt. is forced to agree. (please note no contractor pays bribes from his pocket he pays by inflating bills)

eg. we purchased Mirage 2000 in 80s then we did not purchase any ammunition for it for 6 to 8 years we were flying it without any ammunition other than gun. The missiles we had, were not integrated with Mirage 2000. Now, you tell me if purchase of Mirage 2000, without ammunition was not just useless, but it also stopped us from purchasing other ammunition/equipments. Such is the outcome of corruption.

So, corruption leads to mis-allocation of resources, and create artificial scarcity.

That is the reason that I differ from your view "Money is indeed scarce but corruption is not a drain on the budget."

Corruption is not just drain on budget it also leads to mis-allocation of resources.

Not well read on allocation of resources so i'll take your word for it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Compare Air to Ground missiles with surface to surface rockets would be the first thing when taking about such improvisation ..

Their is a reason we went for Brahmos A2G version for engaging strategic targets ..