Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army T-72M1 & BMP-2

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Indian Army T-72M1 & BMP-2

 

[militarysta]

BTW -about Arjun and T-90 thema (and partial T-80UD)


a) they are many Arjun tank prototypes whit diffrent solutions (FCS)
b) we have four basic "T-90" tank:

1. Ob.188 - T-90 -cast steel turret -in fact Ob.184 (T-72B) on steroids.
2. Ob.188A1 - T-90A whit welded turret, mucht better protection, bud FCS is still not very good.
3. Ob.188A2 - T-90A whit good thermal imager (not AGAVA but Catherina-FC thales) an longer avaivble penetrator in modernisated carousell autoloader (max penetrator lenght about 740mm)
4. Ob.188M T-90MS noewes verison whit very modern FCS, Relikt ERA protection and other changes.

So this question is not so simple. For example - polish PT-91MZ was better in all aspects (without main armour of course) then T-90S for malesia trade. But the same PT-91MZ is whorse in all aspects (exept mobility) then T-90A (Ob.188A2).

If You ask about Arjun and T-90 (many variants) then IMHO:
a) Arjun have mucht better mobility. Engine, transmission, suspension and hull designe is far better then in all T-72/T-80 tanks. In fact Arjun have mobilit the same/very close to the western III gen MBT -so far far better then in estern T-xx tanks.
b) hull layout is better in Arjun then in all T-xx tank. Amunition rack in hull in Arjun is placed in best avaible place -like in Leo-2 or like mirror in Leclerc. Those rack is protected by quite thick front hull armour, and fuel tank. Each ammo is placed in separate contener so it have some kind of (not big, but always) protection against debrits. It's mucht mucht sefer then caruseel autoloader in T-72 famili + ammo placed in any free space in T-72 hull. So it another advantage of the Arhjun.
BTW: IMHO the best part of Arjun is hull -it's really vell developed.
c) turret is definetly not better then in T-90A whit welded turret (Ob.188A1-A2-MS) - LOS is smaller, and obvious weak places are on turret front. But for the other hand -Arjun turret is mucht better protected then T-72M1 Alejya turret, not even mentined those all old Type.59 and other chineese clones. But Arjun turret is not as good protected as pak. T-80UD and Ob.188A2 (T-90A) turret. Smaller LOS thickens, lack of ERA, not protected most of turret sides lenght.
Another think is question how good in kanchan armour But this is a diffrent story.
d) fire power. Well here is funny. It's seems that due to better sunspension, and slighty better gun Arjun shoud have better accuracy during move and stand then T-72M1 and...erly T-90A And Arjun FCS and stabilisatin mehanism shoud be better then T-72M1 and erly T-90A. But, later T-90A (Ob.188A2) have agian improved FCS and stabilisation. So here shoud be some ballance. Big disandvanteg of pak T-80UD and T-90A is lack of indepandend panoramic tank commander sight (like PERI) -so Arjun shoud have full hunter-killer capabiity and those both tank - not. This problem is solved in Ob.188A2 and Ob.188M.But ther raeal shity history is about ammo. Arjun 120mm ammo is obsolate and unabe to bite for +/-30. degree any modern tank. It's sad :/ In fact IMI 125mm ammo and 2BM42 is better then Arjun 120 avaible now ammo. For the other hand - pak 125mm colnes are not really better - ~460mm for 2000m give us simmilar value. But chineese ammo 125mm APFSDS is around 550mm RHA for 2000 so IA shoud suspect that kind of thread. Crew pretection after perforation dosen't exist in Arjun turret -no blow plates, no separate ammo, no spalllinear. In this one aspect T-90 have advantage becouse in T-xx turret there is no ammo in turret.
So overall Arjun is mucht better then T-72M1 Aleya, slighty better then T-90S (cast turret). But T-90A (Ob.188A2) is slighty better then Arjun, the same pak T-80UD -of course hull, mobility, ammo storage in hull is still beter in Arjun but turret protection, fire power is not. In fact maybe Arjun FCS will be newer then Ob.188A2 (and will be definetly better then pak T-80UD) but it can't bllance huge ammo problem and other questions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian T-90S accuracy is not better than Arjun MK-1..

-----------------------

Arjun MK-1 = 90% frhp on 2.3m X 2.3m size target at ranges of 2000ms

Indian T-90S = 85% frhp on 3mx3m size target at ranges of 1600ms

frhp = first round hit probability

-----------------------

Indian T-90S FCS is not an older either :

 

[militarysta]

@Kunal
-yes exatly as I wrote:

It's seems that due to better sunspension, and slighty better gun Arjun shoud have better accuracy during move and stand then T-72M1 and...erly T-90A And Arjun FCS and stabilisatin mehanism shoud be better then T-72M1 and erly T-90A.

So You confirm what was quite obvious for me.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@militarysta,

I have mention the topic because your comparison with early T-90 not the once IA is using with the FCS in it, Are you sure there is advance FCS in T-90A/S not MS.. ?

 

[ersakthivel]

BTW -about Arjun and T-90 thema (and partial T-80UD)


a) they are many Arjun tank prototypes whit diffrent solutions (FCS)
b) we have four basic "T-90" tank:

1. Ob.188 - T-90 -cast steel turret -in fact Ob.184 (T-72B) on steroids.
2. Ob.188A1 - T-90A whit welded turret, mucht better protection, bud FCS is still not very good.
3. Ob.188A2 - T-90A whit good thermal imager (not AGAVA but Catherina-FC thales) an longer avaivble penetrator in modernisated carousell autoloader (max penetrator lenght about 740mm)
4. Ob.188M T-90MS noewes verison whit very modern FCS, Relikt ERA protection and other changes.

So this question is not so simple. For example - polish PT-91MZ was better in all aspects (without main armour of course) then T-90S for malesia trade. But the same PT-91MZ is whorse in all aspects (exept mobility) then T-90A (Ob.188A2).

If You ask about Arjun and T-90 (many variants) then IMHO:
a) Arjun have mucht better mobility. Engine, transmission, suspension and hull designe is far better then in all T-72/T-80 tanks. In fact Arjun have mobilit the same/very close to the western III gen MBT -so far far better then in estern T-xx tanks.
b) hull layout is better in Arjun then in all T-xx tank. Amunition rack in hull in Arjun is placed in best avaible place -like in Leo-2 or like mirror in Leclerc. Those rack is protected by quite thick front hull armour, and fuel tank. Each ammo is placed in separate contener so it have some kind of (not big, but always) protection against debrits. It's mucht mucht sefer then caruseel autoloader in T-72 famili + ammo placed in any free space in T-72 hull. So it another advantage of the Arhjun.
BTW: IMHO the best part of Arjun is hull -it's really vell developed.
c) turret is definetly not better then in T-90A whit welded turret (Ob.188A1-A2-MS) - LOS is smaller, and obvious weak places are on turret front. But for the other hand -Arjun turret is mucht better protected then T-72M1 Alejya turret, not even mentined those all old Type.59 and other chineese clones. But Arjun turret is not as good protected as pak. T-80UD and Ob.188A2 (T-90A) turret. Smaller LOS thickens, lack of ERA, not protected most of turret sides lenght.
Another think is question how good in kanchan armour But this is a diffrent story.

KUNAL BISWAS has already posted that there are extra strong titanium plates along with the armor On the ARJUN turret behind the gunners main sight.Also there is more than ample distance between the back side of the gunner's main sight and the gunner who is inside the tank. Because ARJUN has a longer turret layout, than any T-series tank.

d) fire power. Well here is funny. It's seems that due to better sunspension, and slighty better gun Arjun shoud have better accuracy during move and stand then T-72M1 and...erly T-90A And Arjun FCS and stabilisatin mehanism shoud be better then T-72M1 and erly T-90A. But, later T-90A (Ob.188A2) have agian improved FCS and stabilisation. So here shoud be some ballance. Big disandvanteg of pak T-80UD and T-90A is lack of indepandend panoramic tank commander sight (like PERI) -so Arjun shoud have full hunter-killer capabiity and those both tank - not. This problem is solved in Ob.188A2 and Ob.188M.But ther raeal shity history is about ammo. Arjun 120mm ammo is obsolate and unabe to bite for +/-30. degree any modern tank. It's sad :/ In fact IMI 125mm ammo and 2BM42 is better then Arjun 120 avaible now ammo. For the other hand - pak 125mm colnes are not really better - ~460mm for 2000m give us simmilar value. But chineese ammo 125mm APFSDS is around 550mm RHA for 2000 so IA shoud suspect that kind of thread. Crew pretection after perforation dosen't exist in Arjun turret -no blow plates, no separate ammo, no spalllinear. In this one aspect T-90 have advantage becouse in T-xx turret there is no ammo in turret.
So overall Arjun is mucht better then T-72M1 Aleya, slighty better then T-90S (cast turret). But T-90A (Ob.188A2) is slighty better then Arjun, the same pak T-80UD -of course hull, mobility, ammo storage in hull is still beter in Arjun but turret protection, fire power is not. In fact maybe Arjun FCS will be newer then Ob.188A2 (and will be definetly better then pak T-80UD) but it can't bllance huge ammo problem and other questions.

Once 500 or so ARJUns enter the IA Ammo tech will be there. SO it is a hypothetical short comming at best right now if a war is going to take place. But if ARJUN has to enter the battle field after five or more years it would have new high penetration ammo TOT from abroad or locally developed one.
It can have comparable APFSDS penetrator rod length that can be available to any other tank in the aorld. But the outter sabot surface has to be modifie with slip ring obdurator and considering the high muzzle velocity of ARJUN the new ammo will have the same penetration powers and will also utilize the best FCS of ARJUN for accuracy.

And the mk-2 definitely has side composite armor module added outside. These can be carried out as upgrades in MK-1 if IA wants. SO the so called ammo problem and additional composite armor modules on the side turret won't cripple ARJUN MK-1 or MK-2 as long as these developments are carried out.

Since the tank is entering service now only , it's natural for it to be upgraded in phases.. But the opponents like T-80 UD or AL KHALID it is going to face cannot have the same level of upgrades because these tank designs are old and limited in scope is just my opinion.

Both the tanks that are going to face ARJUN will have no better operating capacity in Indian desert heat conditions than the T-90 had , when it arrived in Indian shores.And both the above Pakistani tank's crew survivability in case of ammo cook off is not as good as ARJUN and no one knows whether the crew of T-80 UD and AL KHALID will be able to operate with ease in Indian desert summer heat with the same as ergonomically much better designed internal volume ARJUN which allows for heat ventilation even without AC.

SO no one can say ARJUN is obsolete against the any other tank that is gonna face it Indian borders.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

T-80 is one of my favourite tanks, too bad it never got an opportunity to show its combat capabilities.

Chechen campaign was a failure of the commanders and not of the hardware.

 

[SilentKiller]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

T-80 is one of my favourite tanks, too bad it never got an opportunity to show its combat capabilities.

Chechen campaign was a failure of the commanders and not of the hardware.

Tank failed in Chechen...true commanders were bad...but tank too performed poorly

 

[JBH22]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Tank failed in Chechen...true commanders were bad...but tank too performed poorly

Only the gas turbine engine was fuel hungry, but ERA were not filled with explosive and bad tactical employment sending tanks without infantry,

The same problems were not reported during second chechen campaing

 

[Twinblade]

Ministry of Defence
06-May, 2013 15:12 IST
Infantry Combat Vehicles
Based on operational requirement, the entire Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV) fleet of the Indian Army is being modernized to enhance their capability.

In the ICV fleet, armament and firepower capability are being upgraded with the latest generation Fire Control System, Twin Missile Launchers and Commander's Thermal Imaging Panoramic sights. These ICVs will also be equipped with the latest generation Anti Tank Guided Missiles and Automatic Grenade Launchers.

The ICV proposal for the Armament upgrade of BMP-2/2K to BMP-2M and New Power Pack for BMP-2/2K will cost an estimated Rs. 8000 crore.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Dr. Sanjeev Ganesh Naik and Shri Sanjay Dina Patil in Lok Sabha today.

DM/HH/RK
(Release ID :95625)
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=95625

 

[SilentKiller]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Only the gas turbine engine was fuel hungry, but ERA were not filled with explosive and bad tactical employment sending tanks without infantry,

The same problems were not reported during second chechen campaing

Because Instead Russians used T 72 and T 90 tanks during 2nd conflict!!


The T-90A saw combat action during the 1999 Chechen invasion of Dagestan. According to Moscow Defense Brief, one T-90 was hit by seven RPG anti-tank rockets but remained in action. The journal concludes that with regular equipment T-90A seems to be the best protected Russian tank, especially if the Shtora and Arena defensive protection systems are integrated in it.[16]

 

[SilentKiller]

Destroyed+T-90S+MBT+in+Georgia.jpg (image)

t90 tank destroyed in Georgia war!!
So can Tanks Guru's comment on that it isn't T90 tank.
Facts is sometimes gurus can also be wrong!!

 

[methos]

This is a T-72B with Kontakt-5.

 

[Damian]

Destroyed+T-90S+MBT+in+Georgia.jpg (image)

t90 tank destroyed in Georgia war!!
So can Tanks Guru's comment on that it isn't T90 tank.
Facts is sometimes gurus can also be wrong!!

Just like Methos said, it is T-72B with Kontakt-5.

Do you know how to find a difference betwee a T-72B and T-90 with cast turret?

This is T-72B with Kontakt-5.

This is original T-90 with cast turret, Russian Army have not many of these, and it is basis for older T-90S variant.

And here a T-90A with welded turret that is a standard issue of Russian Army, and is a base for modern T-90S variant.

Now, you see the obvious differences?

If you take closer look you will see that T-72B have a simpler, smaller tank commander cupola with simple machine gun mount, and T-90 series have bigger, more advanced cupola with remotely controlled machine gun, this is the basic difference between T-72 and T-90 series. There are also other details.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Tank failed in Chechen...true commanders were bad...but tank too performed poorly

??

During first Chechania war Russaian lost (2 years) 192 tanks. Catastrophic lost (completly destroyed tank) - only 65 tanks:
T-80B/BW - 23 tanks
T-72B/BW - 42 tanks
Almoust two times less then T-72 family...

 

[militarysta]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Because Instead Russians used T 72 and T 90 tanks during 2nd conflict!!

Russian don't use T-90 during both Chechenia wars!

The T-90A saw combat action during the 1999 Chechen invasion of Dagestan. According to Moscow Defense Brief, one T-90 was hit by seven RPG anti-tank rockets but remained in action. The journal concludes that with regular equipment T-90A seems to be the best protected Russian tank, especially if the Shtora and Arena defensive protection systems are integrated in it.[16]

And this is dumb as ---- and stupid quote.
There was no T-90A in active service in 1999!!!
What more last cast turret T-90S where sent to India in 2001 in number 42 tanks - and those batch have used all stored cast steel turets from closed (in circa 1996) cast turret production line in Azowstal factory in Mariupol city.
In 2002 first batch T-90 whit welded turret what redy for India (82 tanks) and since those year welded turret and T-90A whas available for use in russian army.
But there was no T-90A yet becouse russian army not ordered new tanks - What more - "next" T-90 whare ordered by Russian Army in 2005 (14 tanks) and army whant cheap cast steel turrets, but factory line whas closed and whole stored cast turrets where sent to India in 2001. So better welded turret whas ordered "by the way" Indian contract - and in 2005 new Ob.188A1 so T-90A where sent to Russian army.

Previous there was no Ob.188A1 in Russian Army!

Read this and learn. It's about your country armed forces and tanks too.

 

[militarysta]

KUNAL BISWAS has already posted that there are extra strong titanium plates along with the armor On the ARJUN turret behind the gunners main sight.

You don't understand. Space avaible after main gun sight is equal to circa 60-65% turret front LOS. And depend on mesurment it has between 350mm LOS (STGN) or 450mm (my mesurment). It's to loow valiue to achie significant protection. It's obvious big gap.
The same huge, anormus gun mantled mask in Arjun -it has only circa 400mm thickness + "wedge" behind it. It's still mucht less then frontal armour. In T-90S whit welded turret you haven't sucht weak place - after gun mantled mask we have constans and quite big LOS -circa 840mm.

Because ARJUN has a longer turret layout, than any T-series tank.

Very questionablle. Arjun thickes loss seems to be between 650 or 900mm LOS -based on diffrent mesurment. In T-90A you have circa 840mm.

But if ARJUN has to enter the battle field after five or more years it would have new high penetration ammo

Those "highjt penetration" will not give mucht without anty ERA abilities. So Israeli, USA, German or Russian how-know is needed.

 

[militarysta]

And this what doing here? OT & Spam
1. Find smth well known
2. Post it in random topic whithout any sens and logic
example: posting about "M1A2 SEP: Additional Background" in topic about Indian Armored Vehicles
3. Be happy forum spammer and troll
Well done!

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

South African Ratel 90

with 30mm cannon

90mm Gun

minus the body or upper structure of the vehicle the chassis design is similar to Ashok Leyland FAT 6x6 artillery tractor

the ratel 90 has 20mm amour i think with our desi renforced Chassy and a good engine with 35mm amour will be a decent IFV