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Change the topic. This is not an Sino-Indian debate thread. We have had much of this earlier which does not ended in a healthy manner.
So stop this here only.
So stop this here only.
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Brother We are all waiting for invaluable inputs to this thread. I accept that all inputs that we all gave was crap and bullshit (you are also part of it ) . Looking towards your opinions on whether we will be ready by 2015 or not and what steps we should take to be ready by that time . Also we should be ready against whom?Change the topic. This is not an Sino-Indian debate thread. We have had much of this earlier which does not ended in a healthy manner.
So stop this here only.
Again Number matters!i saw it thats why i didnt mentioned about navy capabilities....
P-81 is not under discussion.....it will arrive before 2013....
why cant HAL produce LCA before 2015...it just needs IOC clearance now[it will get by 2011] so LCA should roll out before 2012 ending....
yeah you are right about artillery we need it badly....but guess army have to develop capability without it....
IA lag behind PLA`s capability in terms of weapon and tactics..If I am honest then we will not be be ready to get into a war with China even at 2020. We will always be lagging behind them in research and development. Kind of speed we have when it comes to defence related development we will be lagging. We access to better hardware compared to chinese but actual might of a nation is in capability to replace their existing weapons. If we are into long war with Chinese will we be able to replace these expensive toys at same rate compared to Chinese? Answer is no. We cannot fight with china if we don't have indigenous weapon manufacturing capabilities. ( TRUE )
Their numerical superiority will finally overwhelm us unless we have help from some of our friends who will come to rescue only If we are in position to win. If we have chances to loose no one will come to our rescue.
Dude your figures are totally unrealistic. Your artillery is almost three times the size of the tank force. What are you going to do with 11,000 artillery pieces. From where are you going to get so much ammunition. Greater than 10,000 MRLS, what makes you think this will happen, we currently use about 200-400 MRLS. Man this is called day dreaming. DRDo has officially atated that it is not going to develop Pinaka into a larger long range system.India will not be ready for offensive operations until 2027.
Our Navy needs at least 4 Aircraft carriers ,30 diesel subs ,10 nuclear subs.Amphibious Troop carriers like Jalaswa -10 to 12
From 1964 review of how much ships we need was 139 now we have around 120 we need to get it up to 165 as our navy chief said.
Airforce
We need number to counter the mass scale production of J10s by the Chinese.India has always had the best technologically advanced aircraft in the region.We will continue to have that ,but if we dont increase our squadron strength to atleast 55 we wont be able to counter a first strike by a massive chinese offensive in the first hours of a war.
We atleast need 500 Tejas,300 mki,200mmrca,200 pak fa.
Our Air Defense should be strengthened further with induction of current variants of Akash sams, improved variants of AKASH SAMS.Spider and other SAM systems(Preferably INDIAN)
Since J10 and other Chinese aircrafts are essentially 3rd generation fighters which can be at best upgraded to 4th generation we need to create this impregnable network of Anti Aircraft systems.
ARMY
We need heavy lift Aircraft to quickly carry mountain divisions to the eastern frontiers in case of any eventualities.We need at least 20 Hercules and 50 Ans to airlift about 5 divisions of troop immediately so that the chineses dont have an early advantage as they are going to be in all probability the aggressor. Infrastructure is being built up but it has to be accelerated and maintained.
Pinaka systems with 120 kms range and higher accuracy -5000
Pinaka systems with 40 Kms -5000
Artillery systems-1000
Better variants of INSAS like Kalantak or FINSAS
better ratio of number of night vision goggles to number of men
Tanks-Arjun mk1+Arjun mk2=1000
T90 (already ordered so cant change)=1800(need mid life upgrades including cooling systems and ERA and Nera,Need missile launching capability as well)
T72 Ajeya class -700
Rest-500
This is the minimum requirement if we have to fight and decisively win.
We have always had a very good defensive formation in place but in case of any agression we need to defend repel and counter attack ,Hold and then negotiate.We have only done that with some sort of success in 1971.
PS:I only used the chinese as our potential adversary because the Chinese are our only potential adversary.
Do you think an all out war between india & china will remain a conventional war? Your example of ww2 Germany does not suit this scenario. Both countries have nukes. Looking at china's industrial capacity we wont be able to hold them back for too long in a conventional war.Besides our most heavily populated regions are only 300 to 500 kms from the border, well within range of their cruise missiles. Again this wont be like ww2 but a short and decisive war & most probably include the navy.A long drawn out conflict with China would be too expensive for us but not for the chinese. During Kargil we were collecting funds to fight a militia supported by Pak artillery and some regulars. One can just imagine the cost of fighting such a war with a country that's 3times richer and much more powerful.About the indigenous production, I would say yes. Yes we will not be able to stand in a long term war without the capability of mass production lines of the defense equipments.
During WW2, it is said that the Panther tank of the Nazi Germany was the best tank of its time because of the perfect finishing and manufacturing expertisation but still Germany lost because the of the small number in which it was built. On the other hand US produced thousands of Sherman tanks and according to the report if we compare then on 1 panther there were 4-5 Sherman tanks.
Therefore not only the quality but also it is the quantity that matters too and India has to take step in this direction in order to be completely self dependent on the its defense requirements and solutions.
ok let's consider mountain warfare Kargil type again winning that without artillery is practically impossible but then we know Indian army does things that are considered nearly impossible.The thing that have changed is that we have krasnapol guided shells now,the Smerch MBRL.i saw it thats why i didnt mentioned about navy capabilities....
P-81 is not under discussion.....it will arrive before 2013....
why cant HAL produce LCA before 2015...it just needs IOC clearance now[it will get by 2011] so LCA should roll out before 2012 ending....
yeah you are right about artillery we need it badly....but guess army have to develop capability without it....
Today we stand strong on our northeast post is only because of our geo-positions ( Height ) and their is no way we can effort to lose them..ok let's consider mountain warfare Kargil type again winning that without artillery is practically impossible but then we know Indian army does things that are considered nearly impossible.The thing that have changed is that we have krasnapol guided shells now,the Smerch MBRL.
It would have been great to upgrade the Infantry and IMHO the RPO-Shmel would be a great addition for our infantry in the mountains specially to take out enemy post like the pakistani had
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPO-A_Shmel_(Bumblebee)
Mate China doesnt have magic wand that will fund their war. If an Sino-Indian will weaken the economy of India then you cant say that Chinese economy will be left unaffected. And if you think so then either you are taking our armed forces in a light way or you are unaware about their capability. Our Armed forces have proven that they can give extensive damage to the enemy in limited resources. And how many times we have to repeat that this is not 1962 that China can enter our borders easily. About the nukes, have it from everyone that none of the nation will use nukes and the reasons are as simple as that.Do you think an all out war between india & china will remain a conventional war? Your example of ww2 Germany does not suit this scenario. Both countries have nukes. Looking at china's industrial capacity we wont be able to hold them back for too long in a conventional war.Besides our most heavily populated regions are only 300 to 500 kms from the border, well within range of their cruise missiles. Again this wont be like ww2 but a short and decisive war & most probably include the navy.A long drawn out conflict with China would be too expensive for us but not for the chinese. During Kargil we were collecting funds to fight a militia supported by Pak artillery and some regulars. One can just imagine the cost of fighting such a war with a country that's 3times richer and much more powerful.
I did not imply that their economy will be unaffected, just not as bad as ours. They have more financial resources to fund such a war without straining our economy & a larger manufacturing base. And how do you know nukes will never be used? I am not talking about nuking some Chinese city but rather tactical nukes in a battlefield. Remember for us such a war would be happening 300to 400 kms from big population centers, but for the Chinese their side of the border is remotely populated Tibet.An all out war raging not too far away from our capital would give the impression to the world that India is more in danger than china becoz their populated regions are in the far east.Mate China doesnt have magic wand that will fund their war. If an Sino-Indian will weaken the economy of India then you cant say that Chinese economy will be left unaffected. And if you think so then either you are taking our armed forces in a light way or you are unaware about their capability. Our Armed forces have proven that they can give extensive damage to the enemy in limited resources. And how many times we have to repeat that this is not 1962 that China can enter our borders easily. About the nukes, have it from everyone that none of the nation will use nukes and the reasons are as simple as that.
You forgot that this is 21st century and no one can assure of this whether a future Sino-Indian war will include a third party or not.And if that happened then the level of that war can go high and it may lead to another WW.
In WW2 Soviet union was weaker than germany but still it managed to repel the german invasion on the other hand India is not so weak that China as it is shouted everywhere.
Please don't exaggerate. The media is already doing an excellent job of tarnishing our armed forces' image, we don't need regular citizens to join the fray.if things continue like this India wont be ready for war even by 2025. how can we fight a war with obsolete and ineffective equipment? what does the army have with which it can fight? it lacks all kinds of artillery, night vision devices, bullet proof vests, 400000 close quarter carabines, proper grenades and many other things. out of the 400 bofors guns barely 200 must be in operation now due to want of spares and maintainence. the chinese,pakis and even the bangladeshis are way ahead of us. we are the only army in the region which totally lacks a self propelled howitzer.
I have already mentioned in my post before earlier that India should lay maximum emphasis on its manufacturing capabilities.I did not imply that their economy will be unaffected, just not as bad as ours. They have more financial resources to fund such a war without straining our economy & a larger manufacturing base. And how do you know nukes will never be used? I am not talking about nuking some Chinese city but rather tactical nukes in a battlefield. Remember for us such a war would be happening 300to 400 kms from big population centers, but for the Chinese their side of the border is remotely populated Tibet.An all out war raging not too far away from our capital would give the impression to the world that India is more in danger than china becoz their populated regions are in the far east.
In ww2 Germany made the stupid mistake of opening 2fronts at the same time . Besides the Russian victory came at a HUGE human cost.Millions died.In the battle of Berlin the soviets lost 600,000 troops! We are not ready to take even half that number of casualties, hence no use comparing USSR.
how on earth do you think NATO will come for our rescue....??its already overstretch.....US is now on every corner of the planet and is far too stretch too even protect its own allies how will it protect us...??Moreover, a beginning of a nuke war by China will lead to the invasion of NATO forces over China without any doubt and then Russia and and Israel also had to jump into war against China which I think China will never want to happen. .
Ok all i meant was that a long drawn out conventional war along the border would mean advantage china.The "Great" himalayas are not that big a barrier in modern times. Besides transport & communication infrastructure on their side is said to be very good, not to mention a railway line linking Tibet with the rest of China.I have already mentioned in my post before earlier that India should lay maximum emphasis on its manufacturing capabilities.
Firstly, saying this that Chinese economy will be less affected than ours is completely false. Remember that both nations are currently developing in one way or the another. And if a full scale war occured then in will be fatal to both the nations.
Secondly, about the nukes I said so because China is wise enough to know that what will happen to it after it will nuke India. India will surely reply to their nuke with same thing. India may have very less nuke arsenal than China but it is enough for both nations to get destroyed for ever. Nothing will be left alive. Moreover, a beginning of a nuke war by China will lead to the invasion of NATO forces over China without any doubt and then Russia and and Israel also had to jump into war against China which I think China will never want to happen.
Currently the world is not at stage to use tactical nuke on a battlefield front.
China may not be having its big cities in the west but the most imp. thing there is control over Tibet and to cross the GREAT Himalayas via road or air to invade India. If India will destroy their imp. links and routes then China will be forced to use the only waterway through Indonasia where IN has a tactical dominance.
This makes more sense to me than the above post.how on earth do you think NATO will come for our rescue....??its already overstretch.....US is now on every corner of the planet and is far too stretch too even protect its own allies how will it protect us...??
Israel leaving all its problem behind will come to our rescue.....dude....think again.....!!
russia may be....but dont think it will fall into our mess....
in short we are own our own.....nobody is gonna fight our wars...