India-US Ties Are Strong – But For A Price

[tamilandhindu]

I have always been a centrist person who thinks we should court the favor of both the West and the East. We have a border with two of the most anti-western regions of the world - Middle East and Greater China - with the former being very unstable and unlikely to be supportive of the West anytime soon.

 

[Kshithij]

I have always been a centrist person who thinks we should court the favor of both the West and the East. We have a border with two of the most anti-western regions of the world - Middle East and Greater China - with the former being very unstable and unlikely to be supportive of the West anytime soon.

India must play both sides but never agree to any one-sided demands. India must always play in strength and not agree to sign things like COMCASA without getting sufficiently high ToT. Spurning USA makes no sense but it must be made very clear that hard bargaining tactics from USA will not work. India must demand ToT for advanced technology like GaN radar, fifth generation sensors before giving anything.

USA always tries to get everything from others ad promise to "try" to return the favour in the future. The transaction must be insisted to be on the spot and without delays

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Russia is a net exporter whereas USA is a net importer. USA just prints dollars and uses its alliance with Arabs to encash it whereas Russia gives actual resources. Russia gives ToT to India whereas USA only seeks subservience and dependency of India o itself.

Who cares Russia is a net exporter whereas USA is a net importer, the fact remains India get majority of its foreign exchange by exporting to western countries including US ( approx.16.1%). The fact remains Russia is nether a principal importer or exporter. I am not asking to totally abandon Russia but we should look after our self interest.

Except for 22nm and below semiconductor chips, US has nothing to offer India. All other manufactured goods including 32nm and above chips can be obtained from China. Russia gives technology for defence and strategic eeds. What does USA give?

Dude 22nm is not cutting edge, 14nm chips have been commercialized. 7nm and smaller (5nm) can be said t be cutting edge.
We are arguing about same thing again and again. Except for defense Russia what else cutting edge technology can Russia offer us.
Very few people know this but core technology and expertise for Jamnagar Refiner was provided by western companies, this is one such example. You ask what US gives, take a pick from computers to software, from Argo products to healthcare products including pharmaceutical products, from automobiles to planes we are dependent to US and western nation. In fact for oil we are den pendent on US.

 

[Jumbo]

Who cares Russia is a net exporter whereas USA is a net importer, the fact remains India get majority of its foreign exchange by exporting to western countries including US ( approx.16.1%). The fact remains Russia is nether a principal importer or exporter. I am not asking to totally abandon Russia but we should look after our self interest.

Dude 22nm is not cutting edge, 14nm chips have been commercialized. 7nm and smaller (5nm) can be said t be cutting edge.
We are arguing about same thing again and again. Except for defense Russia what else cutting edge technology can Russia offer us.
Very few people know this but core technology and expertise for Jamnagar Refiner was provided by western companies, this is one such example. You ask what US gives, take a pick from computers to software, from Argo products to healthcare products including pharmaceutical products, from automobiles to planes we are dependent to US and western nation. In fact for oil we are den pendent on US.

Madam, please answer it first ---> what is in India's interest?

A bipolar world or a multipolar world.

 

[binayak95]

Madam, please answer it first ---> what is in India's interest?

A bipolar world or a multipolar world.

Definitely a multipolar world where US retains its position as the world's greatest military power.

Today trade across the seas and oceans is possible only because the USN patrols the high commons, US Military presence in Japan and SoKo keeps China in check, it's fleet in the Gulf keep ME dictators under control.

They have the most widespread intel network (both HUMINT and COMMINT) and only the Gods know how many lives have been saved by intel sharing between us.

It is very much in our interest to have close ties with the US if for no other reason than trade ties, the Indo-US community and the fact that it's the principal supplier of some critical tech that we need.

Let me give you an example: P8Is, Apaches, Chinooks, C17s, EMALS, S70b

 

[Kshithij]

Who cares Russia is a net exporter whereas USA is a net importer, the fact remains India get majority of its foreign exchange by exporting to western countries including US ( approx.16.1%). The fact remains Russia is nether a principal importer or exporter. I am not asking to totally abandon Russia but we should look after our self interest.

Dude 22nm is not cutting edge, 14nm chips have been commercialized. 7nm and smaller (5nm) can be said t be cutting edge.
We are arguing about same thing again and again. Except for defense Russia what else cutting edge technology can Russia offer us.
Very few people know this but core technology and expertise for Jamnagar Refiner was provided by western companies, this is one such example. You ask what US gives, take a pick from computers to software, from Argo products to healthcare products including pharmaceutical products, from automobiles to planes we are dependent to US and western nation. In fact for oil we are den pendent on US.

India gets majority of forex from western countries not because of one sided trade. Western countries have petrodollar backing and India is key country which can destroy it. Indian proximity to oil producers and the leverage it has by means of military power. Also, the harm caused by these people in the past has made situation even worse. The only reason India is not going on a killing spree to avenge is in return for the investments ad resources. The west is only trying to protect itself and its resource supply from the middle east by being nice to India. One must be wise enough to see through this and not simply assume that west is benefitting India.

22nm is the cutting edge though 14nm does exist. 22nm is the 2nd recent generation and hence still widely in use. This level of technology is good enough for most purposes.

By the way, do you know that the Bombay high was explored by Russia? Indian PSU like ONGC, GAIL etc were assisted by Russia? USA never gave any cutting edge technology to India. India already had the technology of refinery and USA just decided to make some gains by providing it itself. Russia has technology in oil and gas exploration, civilian/military cargo plane manufacturing. India uses its own Agriculture technlogy for foodgrains for national security reasons. Software is also well developed industry in India. It will be unwise to say that only USA has software industry. The only cutting edge USA has is in silicon semiconductors.. Nothing more

 

[Kshithij]

Definitely a multipolar world where US retains its position as the world's greatest military power.

Today trade across the seas and oceans is possible only because the USN patrols the high commons, US Military presence in Japan and SoKo keeps China in check, it's fleet in the Gulf keep ME dictators under control.

They have the most widespread intel network (both HUMINT and COMMINT) and only the Gods know how many lives have been saved by intel sharing between us.

It is very much in our interest to have close ties with the US if for no other reason than trade ties, the Indo-US community and the fact that it's the principal supplier of some critical tech that we need.

Let me give you an example: P8Is, Apaches, Chinooks, C17s, EMALS, S70b

Let it be very clear - USA gets petrodollars which means that oil from middle east is sold in dollars. That is why USA patrols the oceans. It was not that before USA started patrolling there was no trade. Also, there is no reason to keep China in check instead of USA in check.

USA sided with Arabs and helped them spread influence across the world and lost many lives. Khalistan movement, Kashmir genocide, destruction of North Korea (read Korea war), destruction of Vietnam, destruction of Yugoslavia and creation of Albania, creation of AL Qaeda, Taliban etc were all facilitated by USA to get petrodollars. You seem to know very little about geopolitics. China is far better than USA and has saved countless lives in North Korea, Vietnam and has brought in global revolution in industrialisation by its cheap goods. Indian telecom sector or todays smartphone revolution would have been impossible without the cheap goods from China. China also forced USA to stop misbehaving by giving the world an alternative. If anyone that has saved the world or lives, it is China and not USA. China is the hero of the world and has challenged the mighty USA despite USA having extensive allies and petrodollar backing.

The technology of C17, P* etc are just normal. The high end equipment was not given by USA due to non-signing of CISMOA. The Chinook is an innovative design but not great technology. EMALS has not yet been provided and let us not celebrate prematurely. Moreover, CATOBAR is a simple technology which India can obtain on its own and hence EMALS is only a small step ahead. When did Seahawk become a cutting edge technology? I don't understand why you want to call goods which are simple in technology and available from many sellers is called cutting edge. India is buying from USA as there is pressure from USA to bridge trade deficit by giving high primacy to USA arms wherever possible. These purchases are more or less forced to bridge trade gap, not something you should cheer about.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

India gets majority of forex from western countries not because of one sided trade. Western countries have petrodollar backing and India is key country which can destroy it. Indian proximity to oil producers and the leverage it has by means of military power. Also, the harm caused by these people in the past has made situation even worse. The only reason India is not going on a killing spree to avenge is in return for the investments ad resources. The west is only trying to protect itself and its resource supply from the middle east by being nice to India. One must be wise enough to see through this and not simply assume that west is benefitting India.

22nm is the cutting edge though 14nm does exist. 22nm is the 2nd recent generation and hence still widely in use. This level of technology is good enough for most purposes.

By the way, do you know that the Bombay high was explored by Russia? Indian PSU like ONGC, GAIL etc were assisted by Russia? USA never gave any cutting edge technology to India. India already had the technology of refinery and USA just decided to make some gains by providing it itself. Russia has technology in oil and gas exploration, civilian/military cargo plane manufacturing. India uses its own Agriculture technlogy for foodgrains for national security reasons. Software is also well developed industry in India. It will be unwise to say that only USA has software industry. The only cutting edge USA has is in silicon semiconductors.. Nothing more

Let it be very clear - USA gets petrodollars which means that oil from middle east is sold in dollars. That is why USA patrols the oceans. It was not that before USA started patrolling there was no trade. Also, there is no reason to keep China in check instead of USA in check.

USA sided with Arabs and helped them spread influence across the world and lost many lives. Khalistan movement, Kashmir genocide, destruction of North Korea (read Korea war), destruction of Vietnam, destruction of Yugoslavia and creation of Albania, creation of AL Qaeda, Taliban etc were all facilitated by USA to get petrodollars. You seem to know very little about geopolitics. China is far better than USA and has saved countless lives in North Korea, Vietnam and has brought in global revolution in industrialisation by its cheap goods. Indian telecom sector or todays smartphone revolution would have been impossible without the cheap goods from China. China also forced USA to stop misbehaving by giving the world an alternative. If anyone that has saved the world or lives, it is China and not USA. China is the hero of the world and has challenged the mighty USA despite USA having extensive allies and petrodollar backing.

The technology of C17, P* etc are just normal. The high end equipment was not given by USA due to non-signing of CISMOA. The Chinook is an innovative design but not great technology. EMALS has not yet been provided and let us not celebrate prematurely. Moreover, CATOBAR is a simple technology which India can obtain on its own and hence EMALS is only a small step ahead. When did Seahawk become a cutting edge technology? I don't understand why you want to call goods which are simple in technology and available from many sellers is called cutting edge. India is buying from USA as there is pressure from USA to bridge trade deficit by giving high primacy to USA arms wherever possible. These purchases are more or less forced to bridge trade gap, not something you should cheer about.

Sir, you only keep talking about defense. Their is more to a country then defense. If we only start thinking about defense we will become another Pakistan - a total security state.

As for Mumbai High Field it Indian oil exploration team operating from the seismic exploration vessel Academic Arkhangelsky during mapping of the Gulf of Khambhat when the offshore oilfield were discovered, that doesn't mean it was discovered by Soviet just because we used their vessel. Secondly all this happened just after 1971 and their was no way US would be talking to us.

Software industry is developed in India yet we had to import core software from US for project like UIDAI from US. Our software quality is improving but still we have a long way to go.
Your statement is totally incorrect that US is only ahead in field of semi-conductor, they are actually ahead in semiconductors, electronics (analog, RF, power, digital), firmware, system software and support run-time/compile time libraries. In India what we do is develop application software. No one said only US has software industry I only said that our software industry is dependent on US software insdustry.

India is buying from USA as there is pressure from USA to bridge trade deficit, what is wrong with that. Every nation does that and if we are not doing so than we also must implement such measures. Trade is give and take relation. If India has -2.9 billion USD trade deficit with Russia then its Indian fault not US or Russia's.

When you talk about Chinese phones kindly find out which components are used by these phone manufacturer, you will find these are components manufactured by western companies or the technological patent held by western companies; even its OS is developed by an American company.

Russia is selling us weapons and in doing so they are not doing us any favors. First we should get out of the mentality that Russia is doing us great favor. Tomorrow if China is ready to buy the same weapon system as India; Russia would gladly sell them the same.

A lot of civilian area especially medical, petrochemical, pharmaceutical, etc. is where US sells us cutting edge equipment.

 

[Kshithij]

Sir, you only keep talking about defense. Their is more to a country then defense. If we only start thinking about defense we will become another Pakistan - a total security state.

As for Mumbai High Field it Indian oil exploration team operating from the seismic exploration vessel Academic Arkhangelsky during mapping of the Gulf of Khambhat when the offshore oilfield were discovered, that doesn't mean it was discovered by Soviet just because we used their vessel. Secondly all this happened just after 1971 and their was no way US would be talking to us.

Software industry is developed in India yet we had to import core software from US for project like UIDAI from US. Our software quality is improving but still we have a long way to go.
Your statement is totally incorrect that US is only ahead in field of semi-conductor, they are actually ahead in semiconductors, electronics (analog, RF, power, digital), firmware, system software and support run-time/compile time libraries. In India what we do is develop application software. No one said only US has software industry I only said that our software industry is dependent on US software insdustry.

India is buying from USA as there is pressure from USA to bridge trade deficit, what is wrong with that. Every nation does that and if we are not doing so than we also must implement such measures. Trade is give and take relation. If India has -2.9 billion USD trade deficit with Russia then its Indian fault not US or Russia's.

When you talk about Chinese phones kindly find out which components are used by these phone manufacturer, you will find these are components manufactured by western companies or the technological patent held by western companies; even its OS is developed by an American company.

Russia is selling us weapons and in doing so they are not doing us any favors. First we should get out of the mentality that Russia is doing us great favor. Tomorrow if China is ready to buy the same weapon system as India; Russia would gladly sell them the same.

A lot of civilian area especially medical, petrochemical, pharmaceutical, etc. is where US sells us cutting edge equipment.

Let this b very clear -

USA is ahead of India in software but that does not mean India is critically behind. It is only slightly behind and that is easily bridged in couple of years. USA softwares are not state of the art. So, India does not depend of USA for softwares except in some cases where it is prudent to save time. Developing software takes time due to amount of debugging involved and hence we prefer to take some things from other countries to save time, not due to lack of ability to make them.

USA leads in semiconductor which means USA also leads in electronics. Elctronics is closely linked with semiconductor. But that is it. USA does not have any more decisive leads in other fields. Even Chinese phones have USA components for this exact reason. But, China also has 1-2 generation older design which are still usable and is seen in cheaper phones.

Developing defence will not lead to India becoming Pakistan as Pakistan has no defence technology. It simply imports everything. India will become something like Russia (without oil) with advanced defence equipments and consequently advanced civilian technology like communication, semiconductor etc.

Russia has give ToT and not just sold weapons. Selling of Brahmos to India, Su30 ToT including Al31F engine, cryogenic engine etc are some examples. Russia gave Brahmos to India despite MTCR restrictions by simply branding it as 300km missile whereas it was 450km

 

[Jumbo]

Definitely a multipolar world

I too agree with that.

where US retains its position as the world's greatest military power.

Today trade across the seas and oceans is possible only because the USN patrols the high commons, US Military presence in Japan and SoKo keeps China in check, it's fleet in the Gulf keep ME dictators under control.

They have the most widespread intel network (both HUMINT and COMMINT) and only the Gods know how many lives have been saved by intel sharing between us.

It is very much in our interest to have close ties with the US if for no other reason than trade ties, the Indo-US community and the fact that it's the principal supplier of some critical tech that we need.

Let me give you an example: P8Is, Apaches, Chinooks, C17s, EMALS, S70b

This part of your post has nothing to do with A bipolar world or a multipolar world.

Think it again.

Unipolar / bipolar / multipolar, US military power remains same.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

What can Russia offer to us??? Their is more to life in general than just importing weapons!!! So I ask again what can Russia offer us except weapons???

They can offer us something much more precious that weapons or diamonds. They can offer us fresh water. They have so much fresh water they have no idea what to do with it. They are in a position to export water the same way that they can export oil, but at a much cheaper cost. This can massively help with our water shortages.

No, this is not some crazy plan I came up with. This is from a conversation I had with a senior diplomat here in Moscow. They had some informal talks on the matter and the Russians were willing and came up with a feasibility report.

 

[Samsung J7]

Get out of Russian influence. Only thing Russians offer us is their rusty weapons that too with exorbitant prices. If we want to developed country we should ally with US and western countries. Just for example look at Russian allied countries syria,Iran,Iraq,north korea,India,Venezuela . Look at US allies Japan,South Korea, Gulf countries. US allies r flourishing. Whereas Soviet/Russian allies r in choas. If not for Narasimma rao/Manmohan Singh's liberalisation and pro western policies, we wil be competing with Somalia

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Let this b very clear -

USA is ahead of India in software but that does not mean India is critically behind. It is only slightly behind and that is easily bridged in couple of years. USA softwares are not state of the art. So, India does not depend of USA for softwares except in some cases where it is prudent to save time. Developing software takes time due to amount of debugging involved and hence we prefer to take some things from other countries to save time, not due to lack of ability to make them.

USA leads in semiconductor which means USA also leads in electronics. Elctronics is closely linked with semiconductor. But that is it. USA does not have any more decisive leads in other fields. Even Chinese phones have USA components for this exact reason. But, China also has 1-2 generation older design which are still usable and is seen in cheaper phones.

Developing defence will not lead to India becoming Pakistan as Pakistan has no defence technology. It simply imports everything. India will become something like Russia (without oil) with advanced defence equipments and consequently advanced civilian technology like communication, semiconductor etc.

Russia has give ToT and not just sold weapons. Selling of Brahmos to India, Su30 ToT including Al31F engine, cryogenic engine etc are some examples. Russia gave Brahmos to India despite MTCR restrictions by simply branding it as 300km missile whereas it was 450km

Leaving in denial will not help us. The gap is still huge between western and India IT industry, be it cryptography, drivers software, network protocols, financial software, automation, etc.

USA leads in semiconductor which means USA also leads in electronics, the end result of your statement is that US leads in electronics, it doesn't matter how or why but that US and western countries are leading.

On contrary to your remark that Pakistan imports everything, it is India that imports more compared to Pakistan be its absolute value or percentage of purchase.

 

[Kshithij]

Leaving in denial will not help us. The gap is still huge between western and India IT industry, be it cryptography, drivers software, network protocols, financial software, automation, etc.

USA leads in semiconductor which means USA also leads in electronics, the end result of your statement is that US leads in electronics, it doesn't matter how or why but that US and western countries are leading.

On contrary to your remark that Pakistan imports everything, it is India that imports more compared to Pakistan be its absolute value or percentage of purchase.

Telling lies is not the right way of arguing. Pakistan imports almost all of its defence needs whereas India makes its own products in many sectors. The amount of absolute import required is quite low and India is well capable of making most of the defence needs in India. Pakistan can make nothing. Frm where did you get the idea that India imports more than Pakistan?

USA is not too advanced in software but only in electronics. India also makes a lot of softwares for various tools. Many of the USA softwares like financial tools, automation are all made in India. The difference in IT of India and USA is just because India did not see the need of certain softwares which are needed in USA. Calling India as laggard is meaningless.

 

[prohumanity]

This whole "war shit" is going to be over in a decade because China, India ,Russia all major nations will have enough powerful weapons that no one power will be able to subdue any of these mega nations.

India does not have to be at par in weapons with any superpower...It has to be just powerful enough to give a certain strong punch giving a bloody nose to attacker. It has to have "will to kill" the attacker.

If two individuals have guns..one has a little more sophisticated gun than other...it does not matter much....what then really matters is willpower to kill the other....(assuming both have the capacity.)

USA needs markets like India and China...otherwise US growth will be stagnate...so its a mutual need ..not just India's need.

Lastly, tell me why should India make China its enemy...just because another power wants it...That's ridiculous !
Why should India detach from an old, time-tested reliable friend ,Russia..just because another power wants it.
IS India a damn colony of any damn power ?

India needs to have a policy of self determination with friendship with all...USA, Russia, and China PLUS all other nations. India is too big and powerful to be enslaved by any one power on Earth.

MULTI-POLAR World is inevitable future reality...Baby...better get used to this idea !

 

[ezsasa]

This whole "war shit" is going to be over in a decade because China, India ,Russia all major nations will have enough powerful weapons that no one power will be able to subdue any of these mega nations.

India does not have to be at par in weapons with any superpower...It has to be just powerful enough to give a certain strong punch giving a bloody nose to attacker. It has to have "will to kill" the attacker.

If two individuals have guns..one has a little more sophisticated gun than other...it does not matter much....what then really matters is willpower to kill the other....(assuming both have the capacity.)

USA needs markets like India and China...otherwise US growth will be stagnate...so its a mutual need ..not just India's need.

Lastly, tell me why should India make China its enemy...just because another power wants it...That's ridiculous !
Why should India detach from an old, time-tested reliable friend ,Russia..just because another power wants it.
IS India a damn colony of any damn power ?

India needs to have a policy of self determination with friendship with all...USA, Russia, and China PLUS all other nations. India is too big and powerful to be enslaved by any one power on Earth.

MULTI-POLAR World is inevitable future reality...Baby...better get used to this idea !

It is not just about weapons, we also lack is representation in major world organisations like UNSC. No country is going to give it for free.

With trumps lack of understanding of international diplomacy, this aspect will be further delayed. If Angela merkel looses power in between, it will be even more delayed.

 

[Kshithij]

It is not just about weapons, we also lack is representation in major world organisations like UNSC. No country is going to give it for free.

With trumps lack of understanding of international diplomacy, this aspect will be further delayed. If Angela merkel looses power in between, it will be even more delayed.

Trump is not the owner of the world. Trump can only do so much. Blaming Trump serves no purpose.

Indian representation in major organisation does not exist because India was not a major military power. If India becomes a major technological power, India will have to be made part of major organisation. Even now, Indian military might is more than that of Franc and UK. UK does not have its own missiles or satellite launchers. India is already inching towards major power. Once all the other technological backlogs are cleared, then Indian position can't be challenged

 

[prohumanity]

India was not given proper representation because of Britain. Close to a million Indian soldiers fought under British flag in World War 2. India's sacrifice was overlooked by Allied nations because British did not want it recognized. .British wanted all the credit for themselves.
But, the reality is that a nation has to barge its way in global clubs by becoming very powerful militarily and financially. If India plays its card right...Its time is coming to lead.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India was not given proper representation because of Britain. Close to a million Indian soldiers fought under British flag in World War 2. India's sacrifice was overlooked by Allied nations because British did not want it recognized. .British wanted all the credit for themselves.
But, the reality is that a nation has to barge its way in global clubs by becoming very powerful militarily and financially. If India plays its card right...Its time is coming to lead.

This number may be low ?? Over 2 million died in ww2. Much of this lack
Of acknowledgement is Early Indian go to fault

 

[ezsasa]

India was not given proper representation because of Britain. Close to a million Indian soldiers fought under British flag in World War 2. India's sacrifice was overlooked by Allied nations because British did not want it recognized. .British wanted all the credit for themselves.
But, the reality is that a nation has to barge its way in global clubs by becoming very powerful militarily and financially. If India plays its card right...Its time is coming to lead.

If any lessons can be learnt from china, keep your heads down and work your ass off atleast for 10 years to be a economically prosperous country. after that you can do what ever you want.

what this talk about "India as a super power" "india as a global leader" etc nonsense is doing is that it is making the white countries resolve to never give us an inch. As such our foreign policy dictates that we are never gonna be part of any defence grouping outside of UN, that in turn has made us irrelevant in strategic space.