India US Relations

[Covfefe]

Great, what incentives does India have that makes us invaluable to USA. Right now I just see immigration as #1 and some potential to invest in domestic startups in India.

High growth economy(scope is way beyond startups) and a military powerhouse to counter China. That's it.

 

[Covfefe]

Or maybe India needs to set its vision clearly and abide by that irrespective of how America goes about it and set boundaries of foreign policy based on this vision. Define no-go areas and impose Costs for violating those diplomatic conditions.

It is coming around to that but you cannot escape the process of strategic murkiness before the strategic clarity is seen by both the sides. I could argue the same for the US- they won't go all guns blazing against the Chongs with India as its pillar.

 

[srevster]

High growth economy(scope is way beyond startups) and a military powerhouse to counter China. That's it.

Yeah, but what incentive does US have to stop it’s pressure points? Modi asks for more green cards when he goes to US. That is a pro-US ask. On the negotiating table, what are India’s chips to get the behavior they want from US. With China it is the massive consumer market, the investment pullback and propaganda.

bottom line the problem is the strategic vacuum, india leaves in any foreign negotiation, causing the other party to continue stacking chips for concessions from India. US gets something from India in exchange for nothing by creating these chips. What counter leverage does India have in these conversations? Can Indian strategists clearly articulate this?

 

[Covfefe]

Yeah, but what incentive does US have to stop it’s pressure points? Modi asks for more green cards when he goes to US. That is a pro-US ask. On the negotiating table, what are India’s chips to get the behavior they want from US. With China it is the massive consumer market, the investment pullback and propaganda.

That's what I said India's enhanced military cooperation(read participation in those SCS dominating patrols with Quad, AF exercises of Nicobar, and military hardware sales) and better growth opportunity than China (China is plateauing with the day and investment pullout can expedite that). All this while accepting the fact that China has and will continue to have more diplomatic muscle for sometime, with the US

 

[srevster]

That's what I said India's enhanced military cooperation(read participation in those SCS dominating patrols with Quad, AF exercises of Nicobar, and military hardware sales) and better growth opportunity than China (China is plateauing with the day and investment pullout can expedite that). All this while accepting the fact that China has and will continue to have more diplomatic muscle for sometime, with the US

That’s not a chip. India is incentivized to do that with or without US alignment. What’s the cost or negotiating that India can do?

I can think of a few:

1) reverse brain drain, poach the best talent to work for Indian companies, paying 20% above US market rates with government subsidies.
2) accelerating R&D and not sharing with US
3) deferring PoK take over in exchange for concession x,y,z
4) taking out David Headley covertly
5) investing in US media companies, influencing pop culture

 

[Covfefe]

That’s not a chip. India is incentivized to do that with or without US alignment. What’s the cost or negotiating that India can do?

I can think of a few:

1) reverse brain drain
2) accelerating R&D and not sharing with US
3) deferring PoK take over in exchange for concession x,y,z

1) Brain drain is BS, India just has a lot of brains for it to absorb locally. Better they can find greener pastures elsewhere. It only helps India. Also Gujjus, Marathis, Telugus and Tamils will revolt against the Central govt the day they touched any US migration policy- there are just too many strong interests
2) Lolwa. Don't know which field of RnD are you referring to, the ones I know of- we are decades behind in almost everything
3) Don't think anyone apart from hyper RW or DFI nibbas has any appetite to take over PoK. So much of costs for what? And what will you do with that radicalized population(and contrary to the popular notion, no they won't run away from living under a "Hindu" army. Don't see their brethren on this side leaving for anywhere. Better to spend that money on the needy ones here.

India is not incentivized to militarise the IOR with the US Navy and others. Indian Navy takes pretty decent care of our own waters, and the Army of the Himalayas. But taking the fight to Chong's backyard in SCS- with the Philippines, with Vietnam, near Djibouti and African nations is where the incentive lies for both the US and India. Their string of pearls becomes a colossal wasted strategy of ineffectively distributed resources against a much stronger coalition- who will they patrol the areas with Pakis?

 

[HitmanBlood]

@srevster

Countries do not have any friends but interests.

Indian interests sometimes converge with American interests, this is why India engages with USA. Sometimes Indian interests converge with Russia, Iran or even China.

World isn't a black and white place. There are no good guys and bad guys. On our eastern land border Chinese incursion is a problem. However on our sea border Americans are doing the same thing.

The argument that India should put all its eggs in American basket and burn all bridges with Russia, Iran, etc. is comical and lacks any knowledge of geopolitics.

Coming to diaspora. They do help spreading some cultural influence but nothing more than that. In politics, Jewish diaspora is the only exception. A Hindu living in USA will quickly change his opinion when mainstream narrative is built against India.

The argument that India needs American money/tech is somewhat flawed. You as a libertarian should know that wealth isn't transferred but rather created. India will become wealthy by hardworking people In India not by overseas brown skinned people.

Arguments such as, America will make India rich or Russia will give India super power weapons, sounds ameture. It reminds me of Pakis who constantly look outward for assistance.

On point of lobbying. I don't think India needs to bootlick some random corrupt senator or congressman. That money can be better utilised here in India. Relationships are built on mutual interests not on bribes.

Finally I want to say that India American relationship should continue and even flourish as long as America doesn't interfere in India's internal matter and respects India's independent foreign policy.

 

[srevster]

@srevster

Countries do not have any friends but interests.

Indian interests sometimes converge with American interests, this is why India engages with USA. Sometimes Indian interests converge with Russia, Iran or even China.

World isn't a black and white place. There are no good guys and bad guys. On our eastern land border Chinese incursion is a problem. However on our sea border Americans are doing the same thing.

The argument that India should put all its eggs in American basket and burn all bridges with Russia, Iran, etc. is comical and lacks any knowledge of geopolitics.

Coming to diaspora. They do help spreading some cultural influence but nothing more than that. In politics, Jewish diaspora is the only exception. A Hindu living in USA will quickly change his opinion when mainstream narrative is built against India.

The argument that India needs American money/tech is somewhat flawed. You as a libertarian should know that wealth isn't transferred but rather created. India will become wealthy by hardworking people In India not by overseas brown skinned people.

Arguments such as, America will make India rich or Russia will give India super power weapons, sounds ameture. It reminds me of Pakis who constantly look outward for assistance.

On point of lobbying. I don't think India needs to bootlick some random corrupt senator or congressman. That money can be better utilised here in India. Relationships are built on mutual interests not on bribes.

Finally I want to say that India American relationship should continue and even flourish as long as America doesn't interfere in India's internal matter and respects India's independent foreign policy.

That’s like saying I want to get rich but don’t want a job

that strategy might work in Lala land but not in real life. In real life you gotta get your hands dirty, step on peoples toes and get results through elbow grease. Expecting good relations to fall out of thin air is naive

 

[srevster]

You don't get rich by getting a job, you get rich by creating jobs.

India will not get rich by becoming US's Lieutenant against China.

Who said anything about being a Lieutenant. My ask is invest some fucking money in lobbying and stop pussy footing.

 

[Varoon2]

^ Are you questioning the idea that the US shouldn't be interfering in India's internal matters( within a threshold) or that it should be respecting India's independent foreign policy? This is the crux of the whole approach of the two countries, at the political level anyway. India wants investment and technology, but desires to retain a large degree of political and economic autonomy. The US wants to have major leverage over India's foreign policy, and some over its economic one. Incidentally the US also benefits by investing in India, they get skilled and less expensive labour, as well as a market for some of their goods. And in some cases, a production or service base for exports to third countries.

 

[ezsasa]

Is this entire conversation going somewhere or going in circles since yesterday ?

 

[srevster]

^ Are you questioning the idea that the US shouldn't be interfering in India's internal matters( within a threshold) or that it should be respecting India's independent foreign policy? This is the crux of the whole approach of the two countries, at the political level anyway. India wants investment and technology, but desires to retain a large degree of political and economic autonomy. The US wants to have major leverage over India's foreign policy, and some over its economic one. Incidentally the US also benefits by investing in India, they get skilled and less expensive labour, as well as a market for some of their goods. And in some cases, a production or service base for exports to third countries.

I’m saying US has disproportionate control of the narrative, because India doesn’t exercise its diplomacy in a common sense way. It’s idiotically naive and assumes the best in the other person. Lobbying is the ground work required to achieve the outcomes you want. Hoping for the best is naive and expecting friendship in a interest based engagement is stupidity. India needs to lobby hard to get its agenda through and be more assertive in diplomacy.

 

[ezsasa]

I’m saying US has disproportionate control of the narrative, because India doesn’t exercise its diplomacy in a common sense way. It’s idiotically naive and assumes the best in the other person. Lobbying is the ground work required to achieve the outcomes you want. Hoping for the best us naive and expecting friendship in a interest based engagement is stupidity. India needs to lobby hard to get its agenda through and be more assertive in diplomacy.

unless you own a lobbying firm in DC, there is really no point in having this conversation here.

 

[srevster]

unless you own a lobbying firm in DC, there is really no point in having this conversation here.

Unless the forum members own a lobbying firm in DC, there is point complaining here and badmouthing and showing overall weakness in mental fortitude.

 

[ezsasa]

Unless the forum members own a lobbying firm in DC, there is point complaining here and badmouthing and showing overall weakness in mental fortitude.

I have made it clear to you yesterday, we are civilian national security enthusiasts here at DFI.

 

[cannonfodder]

@srevster we only internet warriors and dont have any power other than discussion/public awareness.

Your point still stands, lobbying is legal in US and GOI is not smart enough. Pakis do much better job to slip in conditions into US legislations that fill their begging bowl. Heard it on Sri Joe rogans podcast on why these unrelated clauses put in to legislation (dont remember which legislation that mentioned monetary help for compromise in passing some domestic bills due to deadlock).

 

[Tshering22]

We need to learn form Jewish lobby in us.how it influences us policy.most republicans and democrats support it. There are uber left which cries, but it's largely ignored and most support israel right to defence.

The Jewish lobby heavily relies on 2 things:

1) Judeo-Christian commonality.
2) Jews literally control every major corporation in the US

(1) Is just not an option for us since we have our distinct identity and not wiling to give that up.
(2) is already happening because whatever influence India has in the USA is being leveraged since a long, long time.

There are two elements to anti-India lobbying; one aspect being the usual suspects and the other, from within the US deep state stuck in the Thucydides' Trap, and a colonial psyche.

What we can do is continued cooperation, while asserting our distinct identity wherever needed. However this needs to come with proper planning on how to deal when we are in China's position.

 

[no smoking]

1) reverse brain drain, poach the best talent to work for Indian companies, paying 20% above US market rates with government subsidies.

Getting a few hundreds or even thousands best talents back to their own country with higher pay is not difficult. The real problem is the majority of those technicians who are not in the top tier. These people are the real backbone of a country's R&D.

2) accelerating R&D and not sharing with US

Then why should US or even West share their R&D with you?

3) deferring PoK take over in exchange for concession x,y,z

That is Pakistan's problem, not US. If India wants to pull the world out of economic crisis by having a war with Pakistan, it is good for everyone except India and Pakistan.

4) taking out David Headley covertly

To antagonize Americans?

5) investing in US media companies, influencing pop culture

Americans are not that stupid.

 

[Chimaji Appa]

They are always in bed with dictatorships but this time Pakis undermined their interests in Afghanistan and central Asia. USA was humiliated in front of the world. Instead of punishing Pakis they have remained silent. Meanwhile India, who has gone extra mile in last 7 years to appease USA is under threat of sanctions.

Americucks 101

 

[Chimaji Appa]

@srevster



Finally I want to say that India American relationship should continue and even flourish as long as America doesn't interfere in India's internal matter and respects India's independent foreign policy.

This will never happen. Not those hundreds of western articles talking about caste discrimination and “Hindu Bigotry”.