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shade

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If US comes to same conclusion that India doesn't hold any cards, since India can't just swtich over to China, and US is the only option for India, they will extract heavy cost from India .
What do you think the current pussyfooting around the 10 foot China man is for, my ostrich-bro?
You think it is just because we are militarily and economically weak?
The whole scheme here is to pull an uno-reverse card and "ally" with the Chinks if the Americunts ever push their luck too far with their regime-change and "human rights" activities.

There is no guarantee too that the US will actually get into conflict with the Chings, it could even be a googly where they bury the hatchet and kiss and make up with 11 Jinping, meanwhile we still share a border with them and will be punished for siding with Uncle Sam by the chingchongs.

on ashley's piece, what's the general opinion on whom it is talking to, us or Washington DC?
It's probably a "transcript" of one among many arguments going on about India in Washington DC.
I mean it is why they are pushing toolkit protests, no Modi and a coalition khichdi govt is much more easy to control, no need for for-against arguments over India then :troll:

btw can any of y'all explain what is this "State Department" and why is it against India as compared to the Pentagon
 

ezsasa

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just an observation..

for many years especially pre-2019 balakote strike, murican think tank intelligentsia tried to downplay India pak tensions and limited their talking points to human rights in kashmir, nuclear weapons, ceasefire violations, millitary escalations. ever since GoI started placing terrorism front and centre in foreign policy outreach across the board, they largely stopped discussing India-pak itself.

which makes us wonder, whether objective of discussions in the past were about downplaying terrorism as a problem itself by murican think tank intelligentsia.
 

Shuturmurg

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What do you think the current pussyfooting around the 10 foot China man is for, my ostrich-bro?
You think it is just because we are militarily and economically weak?
The whole scheme here is to pull an uno-reverse card and "ally" with the Chinks if the Americunts ever push their luck too far with their regime-change and "human rights" activities.

There is no guarantee too that the US will actually get into conflict with the Chings, it could even be a googly where they bury the hatchet and kiss and make up with 11 Jinping, meanwhile we still share a border with them and will be punished for siding with Uncle Sam by the chingchongs.



It's probably a "transcript" of one among many arguments going on about India in Washington DC.
I mean it is why they are pushing toolkit protests, no Modi and a coalition khichdi govt is much more easy to control, no need for for-against arguments over India then :troll:

btw can any of y'all explain what is this "State Department" and why is it against India as compared to the Pentagon
Pentagon == Defense Dept. == Realists.

State Department == Diplomats == Mostly international relations/political science graduates == humanities dept == woke

Exhibit of Pentagon guy, China hawk Elbridge Colby :


Exhibit of State dept :
US diplomats , organizing meetings with all wokest of woke NGO's.
 

shade

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Pentagon == Defense Dept. == Realists.

State Department == Diplomats == Mostly international relations/political science graduates == humanities dept == woke
Well this explains a lot.

It doesn't actually make sense though if they want to squeeze China eventually but they ignore us because we don't wag our tails like the rest of their vassals.

Like why do you think they desperately want to either destroy or regime change Russia? They want bases on China's northern borders after all. :troll:
The plan always is to surround China, but maybe they want a vassal India and not a partner India for that purpose.
 

ezsasa

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btw can any of y'all explain what is this "State Department" and why is it against India as compared to the Pentagon
there are a few posts of mine on this across various threads on this topic, my theory is that state department is still following kissinger doctrine on "south asia". even after 50 years pakistan continues to get benefit of doubt with not even slap on the wrist and mujib's daughter is still on their target list.
they haven't bothered to revisit their old doctrines because they don't invest in research which will disprove old theories.
 

Shuturmurg

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there are a few posts of mine on this across various threads on this topic, my theory is that state department is still following kissinger doctrine on "south asia". even after 50 years pakistan continues to get benefit of doubt with not even slap on the wrist and mujib's daughter is still on their target list.
they haven't bothered to revisit their old doctrines because they don't invest in research which will disprove old theories.
State department is full believer of liberal internationalism/ liberal hegemony, which developed at the end of cold war. USA could afford it then because because of unipolarity. Those fuckers haven't woken up to realities of world.
 

shade

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there are a few posts of mine on this across various threads on this topic, my theory is that state department is still following kissinger doctrine on "south asia". even after 50 years pakistan continues to get benefit of doubt with not even slap on the wrist and mujib's daughter is still on their target list.
they haven't bothered to revisit their old doctrines because they don't invest in research which will disprove old theories.
It's not theory, it's actually how they behave, but before reading up on this thread I used to think this is the opinion of the whole non-elected US govt, but now I came to know the DoD/Pentagon walas have a different view.
Ofc the Paki stuff is also a result of heavy lobbying so that the old memes of "paki is counter to India" etc still get them some bheek
 

ezsasa

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State department is full believer of liberal internationalism/ liberal hegemony, which developed at the end of cold war. USA could afford it then because because of unipolarity. Those fuckers haven't woken up to realities of world.
basic human nature isn't it. how many people have the guts to say we were wrong and the billions milked from U.S and european treasuries for decades and continue to be milked on the premise that "liberal world order is the only solution to all problems" was not entirely accurate. that would mean most of the harassment, NGO fundings supply chain, conferences, university tenures, issue specific senior positions, funding to organisations were a scam.

so the incumbents will try their level best to continue to prolong their scam, up until a point where safe exit is on offer to lakhs of people around the world who are invested in this. they even built themselves a "dead man's switch" in the form of wokeism that no one else can defuse but them.
 

ezsasa

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It's not theory, it's actually how they behave, but before reading up on this thread I used to think this is the opinion of the whole non-elected US govt, but now I came to know the DoD/Pentagon walas have a different view.
Ofc the Paki stuff is also a result of heavy lobbying so that the old memes of "paki is counter to India" etc still get them some bheek
the "paki is counter to India" lobby hasn't gone away, they are laying low. they will be back as soon as funding resumes.
 

ezsasa

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ashley was born in mumbai, and his conclusion is correct. GoI does not intend to get involved in SCS, but if chini poke us on our border, Indian military will respond alone if necessary.
rebuttal to ashley's piece, in first half of the discussion.
=======
Indian Military is Ready to Face Every Chinese Challenge On its Own | Lt. General V. P. Singh

 

Azaad

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there are a few posts of mine on this across various threads on this topic, my theory is that state department is still following kissinger doctrine on "south asia". even after 50 years pakistan continues to get benefit of doubt with not even slap on the wrist and mujib's daughter is still on their target list.
they haven't bothered to revisit their old doctrines because they don't invest in research which will disprove old theories.
It's much more sinister than that . To draw an analogy Stalin's greatest nightmare was Hitler & the Nazis . Towards this end he was frantically seeking a mutual security alliance with UK & France similar to the Entente during WW-1 but was largely ignored as the west saw the SU & Nazi Germany as two sides of the same coin.

Since the Nazis were sworn enemies of the communists helping to extirpate them from Germany with Hitler issuing open threats on assuming power against the Communists the great hope in the west was that Hitler would campaign against the SU with both these evils cancelling each other out in the west's calculations.

Towards this end when Chamberlain concluded Munich Pact , Stalin hit all panic stations while the west which knew Hitler was determined to start off a war , calculated he'd do so in the east as strategic imperatives dictated it given Germany's lack of energy which could only be found in the Caucasus & further south of it along with access to the bread basket of the SU namely the Ukrainian steppes.

Stalin for his part shocked the west by concluding the Molotov Ribbentrop pact . The rest is history. Where this matters from our perspective is it's now a given in the corridors of power in Delhi that China is determined to wage a war of invasion against India.

The only question then is when & not if. By inveigling India in to some sort of an in between informal formal alliance , since contrary to popular notion as of now , EVEN the US isn't keen on a formal alliance with India as opposed to what we keep seeing & hearing in MainStream Media - MSM of India's reservations against it , the US hopes that China begins it's campaign against India before it does it's Reconquista .

It's another version of the US's Gambit in Ukraine.If they succeed the idea is , given the massive forces arrayed against each other even if China wins , it'd be a Pyrrhic Victory at best , massively degrading their war waging abilities a la Russia , with the US & it's allies extending their Lend Lease version of what they're doing in Ukraine against Russia . In doing so they ensure that China is no position to launch it's campaign against Taiwan & in case it does soon after their war against India , the US & it's allies would be better placed to tackle China.

As far as we're concerned we're walking the tightrope here building up infrastructure & bolstering up the Indian Army - IA , though the IAF remains a weak link & being firm but polite with China without going overboard.

Let's see how this plays out . In any case the US isn't going to sit this one out . It's far too much at stake though there may be some quarters who would desire the US strikes a deal with China on the US + China like in the Cold War 1.0 era lines & pretty much what the Jew boy's advocating since the past 2 decades at least , in the knowledge that even if the US emerges victorious , it'd be identical to the plight of France & UK post WW-2 except there's nobody out there to extend the US a Marshal Plan.

Couple that to the massive debts the US has already incurred & it's clear why this is pragmatism personified but the US , to our good fortune , is far too invested in cutting down China & Russia to size neglecting the consequences it'd have on it's own polity & political economy as well as it's geopolitical stature in the aftermath of such an encounter . The perils of great power politics . Damned if you do & damned if you don't.
 

Tshering22

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it's about their next generation, not this generation. Indian parents are willing to sacrifice a lot for their next generation.
The next generation will come out woke and have alphabet people as their partners. The same parents will then "cry culture dying, culture dying". I have seen this obsession with immigration in my wife's hometown in Punjab. it's like an epidemic. People owning acres of land & sitting on piles of money will throw it all away to go and drive taxis in the US or become truck transporters in UK or Canada.
 

Shuturmurg

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The next generation will come out woke and have alphabet people as their partners. The same parents will then "cry culture dying, culture dying". I have seen this obsession with immigration in my wife's hometown in Punjab. it's like an epidemic. People owning acres of land & sitting on piles of money will throw it all away to go and drive taxis in the US or become truck transporters in UK or Canada.
True. US gets most of its blue collar workers from Mexico and other latin american countries, so there are less Punjabis. However, in Canada you can go and see many Punjabis who came over here for university and after that are working in blue collar job.
 

Tshering22

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India will never be America’s ally

The West’s habit of projecting its desires onto India has an ancient pedigree. Edward Said famously called it “Orientalism”. Though most of us have long since dropped the snake charmers and timeless mysticism that bewitched our forebears, the West’s capacity to misread India — and assign it roles for which it has not auditioned — endures. The latest version is to assume that India is basically part of the West even if it does not yet want to acknowledge it. Pride may stop India from becoming a formal treaty ally of the US, or any other power. But New Delhi essentially shares our worldview.

This is an easy mistake to make. Think of the prominence of Indian-born figures in US public life. Sundar Pichai heads Alphabet, one of America’s largest companies. Satya Nadella is the chief executive of Microsoft. Arvind Krishna heads IBM, and so on (Neal Mohan, YouTube; Shantanu Narayen, Adobe; Raj Subramaniam, FedEx etc). Ajay Banga, the former chief executive of Mastercard, is about to become the next World Bank president. Now name me one China-born chief executive of a US-based multinational. In fact, there are two — Zoom’s Eric Yuan and DoorDash’s Tony Xu. But they are far fewer in number than their Indian-born counterparts. The ease with which Indian Americans have thrived in US society makes it easier to suppose that the country of their birth is doing the same on the geopolitical plane. That supposition is an error and is very likely to remain wrong.

To that end, Swampians should read this important Ashley Tellis essay in Foreign Affairs entitled “America’s bad bet on India”. Tellis, who is also Indian-born and raised, is a co-architect with Robert Blackwill of America’s decision to assist India’s civil nuclear development in spite of the fact that India had recently become a nuclear weapons power without being a signatory to the non-proliferation treaty. I got to know Tellis and Blackwell in New Delhi in 2001 when I was based there for the FT. Blackwill was the US ambassador to India and Tellis was his strategic adviser. Tellis, in other words, has been a leading strategic brain pushing closer US-India ties over the past 20 years. So it is worth attaching the weight to what he says:
"Washington’s current expectations of India are misplaced,” Tellis writes. “Washington has sought to strengthen India’s standing within the liberal international order and, when necessary, solicit its contributions toward coalition defence. Yet New Delhi sees things differently. It does not harbour any innate allegiance toward preserving the liberal international order and retains an enduring aversion toward participating in mutual defence."

Two reasons lie behind India’s unwillingness to join Western alliances. The first is that China would quickly overwhelm India’s military in a direct clash between the two :lol:. For understandable reasons, India wishes to avoid that fate. I believe Tellis is right in saying that if the US and China went to war over Taiwan, India would stand apart, though it would root from the sidelines for America to prevail.

The second reason is that India has no wish to see a bipolar world or to be part of either camp. Though India remains a democracy of sorts — I would argue it is an electoral autocracy :lol: — New Delhi’s foreign policy is strictly realist. India has no preference either way for democracy in other countries and refrains from preaching about rights. This is a consensus view among Hindu majoritarians and their greatly weakened secular opponents :lol:.

Because India is still seen as a democracy and shares America’s fear of China, we in the West habitually misread the character of its worldview. When Indian diplomats — such as S Jaishankar, its powerful foreign minister — say India wants to see a multipolar world, that is exactly what they mean. Perhaps we are so accustomed to French presidents, from Charles de Gaulle to Emmanuel Macron, paying lip service to multipolarity without really meaning it that we assume India is a subcontinental version of France :shock:.

That would be a false analogy. India has recently overtaken China to become the world’s most populous country. It wants neither a China nor an America-dominated world, though, in the short term, it will tolerate the latter as the lesser evil. The sooner we acknowledge the reality of India as it is, not how we want it to be, the less likely we are to be blindsided by its stances (see Russia-Ukraine).

Rana, do you believe the US would come to India’s defence in another Himalayan border war with China? If so, do you think we are capable of thinking of ourselves as India’s ally while accepting that India is not ours?

Rana Foroohar responds

Ed, I agree with your general take on India. From a business standpoint, it’s such a hot market that large domestic firms such as Tata, which once spent most of their money trying to grow outside the country, have made a turn inwards recently (see this very good Economist piece on the topic). India for Indians seems to be not only the political but the economic slogan. While the Indian diaspora is certainly huge, with many heading global companies as you point out, the fact that everyone — including the US — wants more access to Indian markets and also wants to be in security partnerships as a counter to China gives the Indians themselves a lot of leverage.

It’s interesting that the US continues to see India as a key ally even as the country imports large amounts of Russian energy, and goes after US tech firms for digital imperialism (I can’t say I think they are wrong on that front). Still, geography is destiny and the US needs working relationships, strong or not, in and around Asia to counter China.

I wouldn’t expect India or any number of other allies to come to the US’s aid in a hot conflict over Taiwan. But I would expect the US to send weapons if another India/China border conflict broke out.
Troops, probably not.

Welcome to the multipolar world.
Very interesting take except for a couple of comical points highlighted above with emojis by me.

  1. I find it amusing how the Americans assume that the PLA by merely having fancy toys with no combat experience is going to overwhelm and defeat a more experienced military on the bone-chilling altitudes of the Himalayan battlefield. We will not defeat them but they will take some really, really huge losses, enough to consider stopping any invasions. Fighting in the Himalayas is nothing like what the Americans know.
  2. American and Western liberals in general seem to have internalized the new fancy term "electoral autocracy" big time. Not that it's hurtful or anything but simply a lie. We would like it that way, but it is not.
  3. Americans again misunderstand that this is some battle between evil Hindu nationalists and lovey-dovey secular peaceful others. This narrative has gone in so deep that they don't understand that it's an existential battle between the soul and civilization of the country versus an Abrahamic-inspired neo-colonial ideology.
  4. Never knew that France was feeding them misinformation about multipolarity all along.
  5. That Rana Foroohar speaks more sense than the writer here.
 

Cheran

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India will never be America’s ally



Very interesting take except for a couple of comical points highlighted above with emojis by me.

  1. I find it amusing how the Americans assume that the PLA by merely having fancy toys with no combat experience is going to overwhelm and defeat a more experienced military on the bone-chilling altitudes of the Himalayan battlefield. We will not defeat them but they will take some really, really huge losses, enough to consider stopping any invasions. Fighting in the Himalayas is nothing like what the Americans know.
  2. American and Western liberals in general seem to have internalized the new fancy term "electoral autocracy" big time. Not that it's hurtful or anything but simply a lie. We would like it that way, but it is not.
  3. Americans again misunderstand that this is some battle between evil Hindu nationalists and lovey-dovey secular peaceful others. This narrative has gone in so deep that they don't understand that it's an existential battle between the soul and civilization of the country versus an Abrahamic-inspired neo-colonial ideology.
  4. Never knew that France was feeding them misinformation about multipolarity all along.
  5. That Rana Foroohar speaks more sense than the writer here.
1683384050050.png

1683384076027.png
 

ezsasa

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India will never be America’s ally



Very interesting take except for a couple of comical points highlighted above with emojis by me.

  1. I find it amusing how the Americans assume that the PLA by merely having fancy toys with no combat experience is going to overwhelm and defeat a more experienced military on the bone-chilling altitudes of the Himalayan battlefield. We will not defeat them but they will take some really, really huge losses, enough to consider stopping any invasions. Fighting in the Himalayas is nothing like what the Americans know.
  2. American and Western liberals in general seem to have internalized the new fancy term "electoral autocracy" big time. Not that it's hurtful or anything but simply a lie. We would like it that way, but it is not.
  3. Americans again misunderstand that this is some battle between evil Hindu nationalists and lovey-dovey secular peaceful others. This narrative has gone in so deep that they don't understand that it's an existential battle between the soul and civilization of the country versus an Abrahamic-inspired neo-colonial ideology.
  4. Never knew that France was feeding them misinformation about multipolarity all along.
  5. That Rana Foroohar speaks more sense than the writer here.
what seems to be happening is that there is brain storming going on in DC,

-Pro-china fellows are trying to limit the damage and hedging/investing against worst outcome i.e full fledged war.
-Anti-Russia fellows are having a field day.
-"National security first" fellows are giving countdowns of 2030-2027-2025

i am yet to get an idea on what "cross atlantic" fellows are pitching for.

in all this, the old "south asia expert" wallahs are trying to insert their narratives to limit U.S-India co-operation in the name of realism using soros funded tropes.
 
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Indrajit

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dfcool

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> free and fair elections

US wants regime change in india's neighborhood.

But What bangladesh can offer to superpower country like US?

 

Overlord

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But What bangladesh can offer to superpower country like US?
The same thing which pakis offer to them, a thorn in our side and a friendly (read puppet) govt. after sheikh hasina brought in through regime change op which can offer military bases to 'muriturds to keep chinks & Indian influence in check.

BTW this b@tch nool*nd is a bad omen, a precursor to regime change op especially in small countries (à la ukros) neighbouring 'muric*nt rivals like chinks, India (in future).
 
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