India-China Relations

F-14

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No somking the Whole issue of our North Eastern Border can be easy to resolve if china did the Following

respect the Treaty of Shimla ( the Tripartate Treaty that gave us India the control of areas now known as arunachal Pardesh )

accept the MaC Mohan Line as the Perment border between the Republic Of India and the People's Republic Of China

and Return Chiniese Occupied regions of Kashmir like Aksi Chin etc

and accept AP as part of the Union of India
 

tarunraju

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1. US is also friend of Pak and providing financial aid to Pak, why don't you have problem with that?
Oh we do have a problem. Here's an example: India protests Pak's plea for US aid

2. As colonal said both countries are doing same thing. The difference is india media only reports chinese pissing while china media only reports india's pissing.
The difference here is the media is talking about your troops pissing about in our territory, which your government does not control, even if it perceives it as its territory. If your government doesn't control it, it's not yours. Simple as that. Whereas, your media is crying about Indian 'intrusion' in so-perceived Chinese territory (which PRC doesn't even control, which has been under Indian / British-Indian control even before PRC was formed).

3. Since when the other south asean countris became india's backyard? Is there any international treat to support that?
None. ASEAN is China's failing baopo?, just as UN is to the USA:


get the joke? :sarcastic:

4. Since we still have some land problem, I don't see this level of coorpration can prove anything. And I have no doubt india has this kind of coorpration with USSR during cold war.
It does. Tons of pointless aid and irrelevant weapons are anti-India more than pro-China. Hopefully someday you'll wake up to realise what a monster you've created. Pakistan is a kind of country which will even breed separatism in China if it gets to that.

5. Did any chinese officer publicly claims that we are gonna cut india's water supply? and what about Pak? I don't see how to cut water without hurting Pak. Since we are allies, we cannot do that, can we?
ROFL Chairman Mao. Chinese officials never make statements to the press that signal China's international postures. Whatever statements do come out of China, are from press-briefings in Beijing, where every attempt is made to made to sugar-coat words, and make the 'official stance' go with the 'peaceful-rise' philosophy, when on the ground, at least concerning our border disputes, China's rise is as 'peaceful' as North Korea is 'Democratic' People's 'Republic' of Korea.
 

Pintu

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India, China joint drill called off - India - NEWS - The Times of India

India, China joint drill called off
Rajat Pandit, TNN 24 September 2009, 12:20am IST

NEW DELHI: The Elephant and the Dragon will not shake "hands'' this winter, even though they proclaim that too much is being made of their "routine'' shadow-boxing along their marked territories.

At a time when Indian troops are forward deployed all along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC) as part of their annual "Op Alert'' exercise, it's learnt that India and China have called off their "hand-in-hand'' (HiH) joint military exercise this year.

While largely symbolic in nature, with just over 100 soldiers participating from each side, the HiH Sino-Indian combat drills were launched at Kunming in China in December 2007 as a major confidence-building measure between the two Asian giants with a long-festering border problem.

The second HiH edition followed at the Belgaum commando school in Karnataka in December 2008, with the pledge it would be a regular feature to boost ties between the world's largest and third largest armies.

But the third edition has run aground, with no clear explanations forthcoming. It was apparently China which made the first move towards cancelling the exercise.

The Indian defence establishment, on its part, says the 2.25-million strong People's Liberation Army is "busy'' with celebrations to mark the 60th anniversary of the People's Republic of China on October 1.

"Moreover, this time our troops had to go to China. With the current austerity drive and economic downturn, a lot of money will be saved by not holding the exercise,'' said a senior officer.

This comes in the backdrop of a flurry of reports of a spike in border intrusions by Chinese troops in all the three sectors -- western (Ladakh), middle (Uttarakhand and Himachal) and eastern (Sikkim and Arunachal) -- of the LAC.

The government, with even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stepping in, has tried to downplay the transgressions, holding they take place due to "differing perceptions'' of the LAC. Government has also said there is no unusual increase in incursions.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor on Wednesday once again stressed the number of transgressions this year were almost at the same level as that of last year. "The borders are safe...there is nothing to worry about,'' he said.

Sources, however, hold Chinese troops have intruded "much deeper'' into what is perceived to be Indian territory this year. "Our troops also indulge in marking their territory, leaving behind stuff like Dalda tins to counter Chinese claims. But the Chinese have been more aggressive this year,'' said a source.

Incidentally, China's massive build-up of infrastructure along the 4,057-km LAC now allows it to swiftly amass troops at the border for offensive operations against India.

This could be one of the reasons why the "Op Alert'' this time has also seen "more aggressive'' forward deployment of Indian infantry, artillery and air defence units. The stated aim, of course, is to "maintain area defences'' and get different units to practice their battle drills in their "respective areas of responsibility''.

The fact is that the Indian forces remain extremely wary of the PLA, with its rapid modernisation to increase transborder and `area-denial' military capabilities as well as enhance its nuclear missile arsenal.

India's plan to progressively deploy more Sukhoi-30MKIs in North-East, raise two new infantry mountain divisions and develop China-specific 3,500-km Agni-III and 5,000-km Agni-V ballistic missiles are all part of the larger strategy to counter China's moves.

The defence establishment also wants construction of the 73 roads earmarked along the LAC -- which is floundering at present -- to be completed in a time-bound manner by 2012.
 

Vladimir79

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It was apparently China which made the first move towards cancelling the exercise.
I really don't like the way this is going. China is really being agressive here, almost like they are preparing for an invasion across the LAC. If they are ever going to strike, now is the time before India prepares herself.
 

Rage

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So it transpires! The Chinese have decided to be anal about what is the most symbolic of military-diplomatic gestures. I can tell you: there ain't too much love lost there, China.

There however seem to be conflicting statements emanating out of the Ministry of External Affairs, with a spokesman, Vishnu Prakaash saying that the two countries "had mutually agreed upon having the exercise next year" and that it "was mutually decided during the last exercise that the next joint military exercise would be held in 2010". See this for instance:



No Cancellation of Sino-Indian Jt Military Exercise; to Be Held Next Year

September 24, 2009 Visionmp.com news service




In reaction to media reports that the Sino-Indian joint army exercise has been “called off”, Government has said that no such drill was planned for this year and that India and China will hold joint military exercises next year.

Vishnu Prakash, spokesperson of the Ministry of External Affairs, said that the two countries had mutually agreed upon having the exercise next year.

“It was mutually decided during the last exercise that the next joint military exercise would be held in 2010. Therefore, no joint military exercise was planned in 2009,” Prakash said in a statement in New Delhi.

He also informed that joint military exercises were conducted in 2007 and 2008.

In December 2007, the two armies, in a path breaking move, held the first ever exercise, named ‘Hand-in-Hand’ in Kunming province of China, when a 100-strong Indian Army delegation took part in a counter-terrorism exercise.

This was followed up with the second exercise last year when India hosted the Chinese military personnel at Belgaum in Karnataka for a similar counter-terrorism exercise.

China had already informed India that this year it would be busy with its 60th National Day celebrations scheduled for October one and hence would not be able to host the Indian Army personnel for the exercise this year. The two sides, then, decided to hold the exercise in China in 2010.


http://visionmp.com/no-cancellation...ary-exercise-to-be-held-next-year25411479420/
 

Vladimir79

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It is pretty obvious it was an annual exercise. If it was bi-annual it wouldn't be 07' and 08 consecutively. Why is Indian government downplaying such obvious agression from China?
 

Rage

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It is pretty obvious it was an annual exercise. If it was bi-annual it wouldn't be 07' and 08 consecutively. Why is Indian government downplaying such obvious agression from China?

My take: Since the Chinese have decided to 'cancel' this year's "HIH Exercises" on account of their "60th Anniversary Celebrations", we ought to reciprocate the gesture to them the next, particularly since 2010 will be the "60th Anniversary" of the founding of our Republic.

If however, it was decided at the conclusion of last year's exercise [for which I can find no dated source] that the exercise would not be held this year, then I am willing to concede the temporary kibosh.

Otherwise, this excuse is pure, unadulterated bullshit, and another Sino "iron-fist" ploy at attempting to play the dragoon.
 

tarunraju

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It's the 60th Anniversary of the PRC, not the 50th. I don't see how '60' holds so much symbolism that you call off Jt Military Exercises, which also serve as confidence building / peace keeping measures. Unless of course, 60 does hold some symbolism to the Chinese or CCP. PRC is displaying/commissioning a LOT of new equipment this Oct 1.
 

no smoking

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No somking the Whole issue of our North Eastern Border can be easy to resolve if china did the Following

respect the Treaty of Shimla ( the Tripartate Treaty that gave us India the control of areas now known as arunachal Pardesh )

accept the MaC Mohan Line as the Perment border between the Republic Of India and the People's Republic Of China

and Return Chiniese Occupied regions of Kashmir like Aksi Chin etc

and accept AP as part of the Union of India
Ask the chinese gov to accept a treaty which never been discussed with chinese central gov from beginning?

Now I see how easy it is to solve the problem: completely accept india's requirement. if this is your so called resolution, forget it.

How about, we have aski chin, you have AP and we settle the dispute based on LOC?
 

tarunraju

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How about, we have aski chin, you have AP and we settle the dispute based on LOC?
If this is your resolution (and that of your government's), then it should have been reached a long time ago. It's not the case. We don't have a common-perception of the LAC. The Chinese don't see international borders, and come up with new boundaries every now and then.
 

Vladimir79

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Ask the chinese gov to accept a treaty which never been discussed with chinese central gov from beginning?

Now I see how easy it is to solve the problem: completely accept india's requirement. if this is your so called resolution, forget it.

How about, we have aski chin, you have AP and we settle the dispute based on LOC?
The only solution for China has been all or nothing. We tried compromising with them over Damansky Island and got nowhere. They wouldn't quit until we gave it to them and we were rewarded by them polluting the river so no one can drink or fish there.
 

IBRIS

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Ask the chinese gov to accept a treaty which never been discussed with chinese central gov from beginning?

Now I see how easy it is to solve the problem: completely accept india's requirement. if this is your so called resolution, forget it.

How about, we have aski chin, you have AP and we settle the dispute based on LOC?
Chinese government never asked the Tibetans before they claimed their Land.

Tibet is still considered as disputted territory, so any claim on AP by china is not considered "Legit".

There is a reason why china can't poppulate the aksai chin with human habitants. -35 Try breathing longer than 3 minutes there without freezing ur lungs.
 

Vladimir79

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Your opinion needs to be factual. There is no evidence that Chinese are being aggressive on the Indian Chinese Border.
I guess you didn't see the pictures of Chinese spray painting Indian boulders saying "property of China?" Now they withdraw from annual goodwill exercise. I don't see how you can get more aggressive than that except by actually occupying the land.

It is India's manipulation to get access to additional US technology against Chinese and then use it again Pakistan as well.
India hasn't gotten much of USAs latest stuff except by way of the Usraeli proxy state. You should be more worried about what they are getting from Russia. Once PAK FA comes into service you can kiss the balance of power good bye.

Also India media is also exagerating Chinese incursions, but there is no evidence that they even occurred.
A picture says a thousand words...

china+_rock_naming_ladakh_india_border.jpg (image)
 

Rage

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Non-adherence to LAC by China leading to border dispute: Pallam Raju




IANS 26 September 2009, 01:25pm IST



LEH: Beijing's "non-adherence" to the Line of Actual Control (LAC) that separates India and China has resulted in different perceptions in thetwo countries on where the border lies, minister of state for defence (Production) MM Pallam Raju said here, while adding "there is no need to be afraid of China".

Speaking on the sidelines of a conference at this headquarters of Jammu and Kashmir's Ladakh district, Raju said that till the time the border dispute is resolved, "China may make attempts to escalate the issue".

"Mcmahon line delineates (the border between) India and China. But they (China) do not adhere to that resulting in the problem. So they patrol the area they think is theirs and we patrol the area we think is ours," Raju told reporters.

The minister is on a visit to this region which borders China soon after media reports of Chinese incursions into Indian territory, reports that New Delhi and Beijing have both denied.

Raju was quick to add that India was not underestimating the "threat perception" from China.

"India-China trade is increasing and it's the main focus of our relations," he said. "But we are not underestimating the threat perception. Whatever preparation has to be there from Indian side we are doing it.

"Whatever surveillance is required we are doing it. The number of incursions is same as last year. So there is no need to be concerned. Whatever transgressions are there are raised in flag meetings with China."

The minister admitted that infrastructure on the Indian side of the Line of Actual Control is far worse than in China.

"China side's infrastructure is very good. They are increasing border patrolling also. We are taking up (infrastructure development) we have neglected over the years. We are modernising infrastructure along the border with China," he said.

The minister claimed that the Indian Navy has an advantage over China in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), which is of importance to Beijing to secure its energy supply.

"Their energy supplies transit through Indian Ocean Region. Indian Navy is dominating in the Indian Ocean. We are taking care as China may want to come in the region to secure energy lines. So we are modernising at a higher pace," he said.

Chinese interest in the IOR has been reflected by the investments it has made in various ports in India's neighboring countries -- Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Non-adherence-to-LAC-by-China-leading-to-border-dispute-Pallam-Raju/articleshow/5059480.cms
 

asheng312

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In my opinion, nothing serious exist there at all.
India army incursed into China, and China army do the same thing. Not with intention, they lost their way. In vast land with no plants or roads there, isn't it the most reasonable thing to get lost and step out of the borderline ?
Anyway, if India army won't build sentry in China territory like they did in 1962, no conflicts would happen at all.
 

natarajan

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200 vultures sighted near China border in Himachal

At a time when the vulture population has all but disappeared 99% of India’s four crore vultures have died in the last three decades the sighting of around 200 bearded variety of the species in Lahaul-Spiti, Himachal Pradesh, comes as a ray of hope for wildlife enthusiasts.
Around 200 of these vultures are spread around the rocky mountains of cold desert area that includes some parts of China. Indian vultures have all but vanished because of feeding on dead livestock that were administered an anti-inflammatory drug called diclofenac that increased the working life of cattle by reducing their joint pain. According to scientists, the Lammergeiers or bearded vultures, breed in crags in high mountains laying one or two eggs in mid-winter that hatch at the beginning of spring. The population is resident. In Himachal Pradesh,
their population is found in the Lahaul-Spiti and Kinnaur districts bordering China.
State chief conservator of forests (wildlife) Sanjeeva Pandey said there is a larger presence of bearded vultures in higher areas because people here do not give diclofenac to their cattle. The bearded vulture helps in keeping the
environment clean, he
added.
Forest officials from Lahaul-Spiti said that higher reaches of Rohtang and Kunzam passes have become home to bearded vultures, while vultures from China are found in Lidong, Demul, Koumik, Kibber and Hikkim of Spiti valley.
The spotting of bearded vultures in such large number has raised visions of saving the majestic bird at least in Himachal Pradesh that saw the tragic disappearance of White Back vulture and King vulture from the lower parts of the state.
Back From The Brink?
Almost 99% of India’s 4 crore vultures have died in the past three decades
Near-extinction blamed on anti-inflammatory drug diclofenac given to cattle that led to high mortality among vultures feeding on the carcasses
India banned production and sale of diclofenac in 2006

source

are they using vultures as uav,we need to check as pakistan in the past has sent vulture with microphone,cameta etc
 

Yusuf

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Good conspiracy theory nat. Your mind is running overtime.
 

F-14

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Ask the chinese gov to accept a treaty which never been discussed with chinese central gov from beginning?
read this convention document properly Mr Non smoking

Convention Between Great Britain, China, and Tibet, Simla (1914)

CONVENTION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN, CHINA, AND TIBET
SIMLA 1914

Attached to the Anglo-Tibetan Declaration

of 3 July 1914


His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India, His Excellency the President of the Republic of China, and His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet, being sincerely desirous to settle by mutual agreement various questions concerning the interests of their several States on the Continent of Asia, and further to regulate the relations of their several Governments, have resolved to conclude a Convention on this subject and have nominated for this purpose their respective Plenipotentiaries, that is to say:
His Majesty the King Of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India, Sir Arthur Henry McMahon, Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, Knight Commander of the Most Eminent Order of the Indian Empire, Companion of the Most Exalted Order of the Star of India, Secretary to the Government of India, Foreign and Political Department;
His Excellency the President of the Republic of China, Monsieur Ivan Chen, Officer of the Order of the Chia Ho;

His Holiness the Dalai Lama of Tibet, Lonchen Ga-den Shatra Pal-jor Dorje; who having communicated to each other their respective full powers and finding them to be in good and due form have agreed upon and concluded the following Convention in eleven Articles.

Article 1. The Conventions specified in the Schedule to the present Convention shall, except in so far as they may have been modified by, or may be inconsistent with or repugnant to, any of the provisions of the present Convention, continue to be binding upon the High Contracting Parties. Article 2. The Governments of Great Britain and China recognizing that Tibet is under the suzerainty of China, and recognizing also the autonomy of Outer Tibet, engage to respect the territorial integrity of the country, and to abstain from interference in the administration of Outer Tibet (including the selection and installation of the Dalai Lama), which shall remain in the hands of the Tibetan Government at Lhasa.
The Government of China engages not to convert Tibet into a Chinese province. The Government of Great Britain engages not to annex Tibet or any portion of it.

Article 3. Recognizing the special interest of Great Britain, in virtue of the geographical position of Tibet, in the existence of an effective Tibetan Government, and in the maintenance of peace and order in the neighbourhood of the frontiers of India and adjoining States, the Government of China engages, except as provided in Article 4 of this Convention, not to send troops into Outer Tibet, nor to station civil or military officers, nor to establish Chinese colonies in the country. Should any such troops or officials remain in Outer Tibet at the date of the signature of this Convention, they shall be withdrawn within a period not exceeding three months.

The Government of Great Britain engages not to station military or civil officers in Tibet (except as provided in the Convention of SeptemberÊ7, 1904, between Great Britain and Tibet) nor troops (except the Agents' escorts), nor to establish colonies in that country.

Article 4. The foregoing Article shall not be held to preclude the continuance of the arrangement by which, in the past, a Chinese high-official with suitable escort has been maintained at Lhasa, but it is hereby provided that the said escort shall in no circumstances exceed 300 men.

Article 5. The Governments of China and Tibet engage that they will not enter into any negotiations or agreements regarding Tibet with one another, or with any other Power, excepting such negotiations and agreements between Great Britain and Tibet as are provided for by the Convention of SeptemberÊ7, 1904, between Great Britain and Tibet and the Convention of AprilÊ27, 1906, between Great Britain and China.

Article 6. ArticleÊIII of the Convention of AprilÊ27, 1906, between Great Britain and China is hereby cancelled, and it is understood that in ArticleÊIX(d) of the Convention of SeptemberÊ7, 1904, between Great Britain and Tibet the term 'Foreign Power' does not include China.

Not less favourable treatment shag be accorded to British commerce than to the commerce of China or the most favoured nation.

Article 7.a. The Tibet Trade Regulations of 1893 and 1908 are hereby cancelled.

b. The Tibetan Government engages to negotiate with the British Government new Trade Regulations for Outer Tibet to give effect to ArticlesÊII, IV and V of the Convention of SeptemberÊ7, 1904, between Great Britain and Tibet without delay; provided always that such Regulations shall in no way modify the present Convention except with the consent of the Chinese Government.

Article 8. The British Agent who resides at Gyantse may visit Lhasa with his escort whenever it is necessary to consult with the Tibetan Government regarding matters arising out of the Convention of SeptemberÊ7, 1904, between Great Britain and Tibet, which it has been found impossible to settle at Gyantse by correspondence or otherwise.

Article 9. For the purpose of the present Convention the borders of Tibet, and the boundary between Outer and Inner Tibet, shall be as shown in red and blue respectively on the map attached hereto.1

Nothing in the present Convention shag be held to prejudice the existing rights of the Tibetan Government in Inner Tibet, which include the power to select and appoint the high priests of monasteries and to retain full control in all matters affecting religious institutions.

Article 10. The English, Chinese and Tibetan texts of the present Convention have been carefully examined and found to correspond, but in the event of there being any difference of meaning between them the English text shall be authoritative.

Article 11. The present Convention will take effect from the date of signature.


In token whereof the respective Plenipotentiaries have signed and sealed this Convention, three copies in English, three in Chinese and three in Tibetan.


Done at Simla this third day of July, A.D., one thousand nine hundred and fourteen, corresponding with the Chinese date, the third day of the seventh month of the third year of the Republic, and the Tibetan date, the tenth day of the fifth month of the Wood-Tiger year.

Initial of the Lonchen Shatra2 A.H.M.

Seal of the Lonchen Shatra Seal of the British

Plenipotentiary


Schedule

1. Convention between Great Britain and China relating to Sikkim and Tibet, signed at Calcutta the 17th March 1890.

2. Convention between Great Britain and Tibet, signed at Lhasa the 7th September 1904.

3. Convention between Great Britain and China respecting Tibet, signed at Peking the 27th April 1906.
The notes exchanged are to the following effect:

1. It is understood by the High Contracting Parties that Tibet forms part of Chinese territory.

2. After the selection and installation of the Dalai Lama by the Tibetan Government, the latter will notify the installation to the Chinese Government whose representative at Lhasa will then formally communicate to His Holiness the titles consistent with his dignity, which have been conferred by the Chinese Government.
3. It is also understood that the selection and appointment of all officers in Outer Tibet will rest with the Tibetan Government.

4. Outer Tibet shall not be represented in the Chinese Parliament or in any other similar body.

5. It is understood that the escorts attached to the British Trade Agencies in Tibet shall not exceed seventy-five per centum of the escort of the Chinese Representative at Lhasa.

6. The Government of China is hereby released from its engagements under Article III of the Convention of MarchÊ17, 1890, between Great Britain and China to prevent acts of aggression from the Tibetan side of the Tibet-Sikkim frontier.
7. The Chinese high official referred to in Article 4 will be free to enter Tibet as soon as the terms of ArticleÊ3 have been fulfilled to the satisfaction of representatives of the three signatories to this Convention, who will investigate and report without delay.

Initial of the Lonchen Shatra (Initialled) A.H.M.

Seal of the Lonchen Shatra Seal of the British

Plenipotentiary
 

arya

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good luck

In my opinion, nothing serious exist there at all.
India army incursed into China, and China army do the same thing. Not with intention, they lost their way. In vast land with no plants or roads there, isn't it the most reasonable thing to get lost and step out of the borderline ?
Anyway, if India army won't build sentry in China territory like they did in 1962, no conflicts would happen at all.
hi

i just want to clear if you have any dout in your mind arunchal padesh is our and we dont want to caputure your land but if any one try to move one step then next time they will think 2 times

we wish china grow and be happy but never ever try to cross our road

good luck for china

jai hind
 

tiger usa

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China is a peaceful country and positive comments keep the forum positive.
 

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