IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[sayareakd]

Its his job man. Lets not blame him for the stupidity of DCNS.

he is playing as per his masters wish, which is to get the contract of DCNS cancelled, we on our part should make sure that DCNS should pay for this.

BTW it is good that newspaper has published it, if it was Paki or Chinese spy agencies they would not have given all this info. They would have used this info at the time of war.

Like in one of the war with Pakistan, we had info that Pakistani tanks have only practice ammo rounds. This info came from country who supplied them tanks that time.

 

[pmaitra]

@scatterStorm, I have undeleted your posts. I don't remember exactly why, but I think it was due to security reasons. Now, since the news is widespread, I think there is no harm in restoring your posts.

 

[BON PLAN]

Indeed! During Kargil when Navy started manoeuvring fearing escalation of war (due to Pakis unwillingness to vacate the Kargil posts despite having given the levity by us), the French Navy had responded by stationing Charles de Gaulle battle group to maintain what they called tranquillity at sea. Need it elaborated.

If anyone helped during Kargil, it was time tested Isreal.

WHAT ?
Charles de Gaulle carrier was commissioned in may 2001 !!! first sea trial in january 1999. without plane....
Kargil war was in may 1999.

Explain me please.....

 

[BON PLAN]

Forking over exocet killcodes to the British during Falklands war

From what I know of Kargil it was the Israelis that supplied us LGBs when the US imposed a weapons embargo on both sides.

The only thing that connects France to Kargil is Mirage 2000s which were hailed for dropping LGBs on the infiltrators,LGBs supplied by the Israelis,not the French.

Dassault agreed and helped indian (anf maybe israelian technicians) to adapt Mirage2000. It's a fact. Without help of France, no integration possible, without our software keys.

Exocet in falklands : GB is one of our best allie. We can't forget WW1 and WW2.
It was absolutely not reasonnable not to gave our help to GB. The agressor was argentina.....

 

[BON PLAN]

Correct! IAF had modified the Mirages with Isreali help.

Impossible without french help. No open soft, no upgrade !

 

[BON PLAN]

how the French bent over the pressure from USA for Mistral to russia and then bent over

No US pressure can change France foreign Policy. It's proved for years.
Remember our opposition to 2nd iraki war !!!

If US has a right to say something, no Mistral sale was concluded.

The truth is :
1) We sold Mistral to a pacified Russia.
2) Russia attack a european allie.
3) we adopt economic pressure, and cancel the Mistral deal (without US or european financial compensation !)

THE TRUTH it is.

 

[BON PLAN]

Scorpene subs now good only for junking: Thank you DCNS!
Posted on August 24, 2016by Bharat Karnad
The Indian Navy’s fleet of the French Scorpene submarine — the first of which, Kalvari, has entered service, is now completely compromized. The most secret data about the performance attributes and technologies incorporated in the Scorpene are now common knowledge, and the details in some 22,000 pages of this project has been “leaked” from the French company DCNS’ facility in France. The gist of these documents is published in the Aussie paper, ‘The Australian’ and is accessible athttp://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l/news-story/3fe0d25b7733873c44aaa0a4d42db39e.

The restricted data, per the Australian news story, reveals information in the following broad categories the newspaper has, fortunately, not retailed:

• The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines

• The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence

• The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds

• Diving depths, range and endurance

• Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data

• Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system

• Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope

• Propeller’s noise specifications

• Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces

Assuming the DCNS data was stolen from DCNS computers by cyber thieves or by a staffer with eye on the main chance, with the express purpose of derailing DCNS’ contract with Canberra to build six Sorpenes for the Australian Navy, the Indian Navy is a collateral hit — its prospective sea-denial capability a lot of showpiece rubble, its submarines good for nothing when, not if, the China and Pakistan buy the entire stock of documents as they will. Not sure, at this late date, that DCNS can do anything structurally to change the stealth or cavitation parameters, for instance, and if they can, at whose cost? The disclosures about the diving depths, weapons, and sensor specifications are really damaging. Worse, what can or will the Indian Navy now do? Look at the categories and the comprehensive info about the Scorpene, what option’s left other than to junk the nearly $22 billion worth of French submarines?

France has always been distrusted by the US as being unable to safeguard its military secrets. One reason why Washington was relieved when General de Gaulle withdrew France from NATO in June 1966.

This blog has been full of posts retailing my suspicions on various counts about French military hardware in the context of the impending Rafale acquisition decision, and particularly with regard to DCNS’ bid for the Project 75i submarine. Will the Modi regime now go ahead with the Rafale aircraft buy considering its secrets, assuming there are any, may be spirited away from the Dassault vaults and made public as the Scorpene info was from DCNS? And, more worrying still, will Parrikar in order to please Modi, instead of blackballing DCNS for its lax attitude to secret data, shortlist it for the Project 75i?

Have always argued that the only secrets about military hardware India can be sure of is about weapons systems it has fully made itself — from design to delivery. Reason why Tejas, Arihant, Agni missiles are such force multipliers — but little else in the Indian military inventory is as the rest of the stuff is all procured from foreign countries, who will happily reveal their secrets if it serves their national interest. In this respect, recall that during the 1982 Falklands War, France shared with Britain the operating frequencies of the Exocet anti-ship missile it had sold to Argentina. Only Russia has been above board in this respect.

This DCNS leak is a god-sent opportunity for the Indian govt, MOD, and military services to correct their imported armaments-oriented attitude, and to begin investing fully in only indigenous weaponry. If even after this, the Modi-Parrikar duo persists with its tilt favouring Western foreign suppliers, then what’s there to do except await the inevitable — an India fast declining in status and standing.

https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/08/24/scorpene-subs-now-good-only-for-junking-thank-you-dcns/

You forget one thing : The leak includes all the drawings of the sub....... LOL !

 

[Scarface]

Dassault agreed and helped indian (anf maybe israelian technicians) to adapt Mirage2000. It's a fact. Without help of France, no integration possible, without our software keys.

Exocet in falklands : GB is one of our best allie. We can't forget WW1 and WW2.
It was absolutely not reasonnable not to gave our help to GB. The agressor was argentina.....

If it's a fact then why can't you show me proof
The word is that we had modified a dumb bomb which the Mirage was already capable of carrying into an LGB w/Israeli strap on kits

I'll happily concede if you show me evidence of France helping us during Kargil

And even if GB were your allies it doesn't change the fact that you tossed the Argentinians under the bus under British pressure

 

[Rahul Singh]

WHAT ?
Charles de Gaulle carrier was commissioned in may 2001 !!! first sea trial in january 1999. without plane....
Kargil war was in may 1999.

Explain me please.....

My bad, it got mixed out of carelessness. Sorry. I meant "during 2002 hostilities" with Pakistan.

 

[Compersion]

Instead of buying the Rafael we ought to find a disgruntled person and get drawings and whatever !!

But That's not how it works ... And even if we have drawings and whatever.

France ain't looking good from all this. Israel and France relations from past come to mind ... Indigenous work will be the flavor and probably USA come into play more often. France ought to have seen this ... Israel and USA ... India and USA ?? France must have known !! Did they object and want different ... Hence such a hit in the nuts. Ouch ... India needs to look after it's interests first. But mindful relationship and relations are dynamic and can come in use when needed. We really need to get a lot out. We are far far ahead of 1970s PRC. And we are not going to backstab anyone. That's not to say things can be managed ... Its there.

 

[airtel]

Can't find any source corroborating that.
Most sources are saying that the LGBs dropped in Kargil were dumb bombs modified to act as LGBs with the help of Israeli strap on kits and guided by Israeli LITENING pods


Where did you get this information from ?

according to this article >>It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar:


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120206/jsp/frontpage/story_15098135.jsp


.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No delay in Scorpene programme, India capable of making changes: Navy officers
"We are expecting to induct INS Kalvari in the navy by year-end. The trials have been good. So far we do not see the leaks affecting the schedule," he added.
BY: IANS | NEW DELHI |Published On:August 28, 2016 5:09 PM

As the Indian Navy investigates the leaked documents pertaining to its six Scorpene submarines, top officers say they do not expect the project to be delayed and that the first vessel, INS Kalvari, which is currently undergoing sea trials, will be inducted by the year-end.

While the Indian Navy has maintained the leaked data, which The Australian newspaper that broke the story says runs into 22,400 pages, will not compromise the boat’s stealth capabilities, an officer told IANS that, if needed, India is capable of making suitable changes in the submarines keeping in mind the “worst-case scenario”. Changes can be made “at any stage, if needed”, the officer said.

“We are expecting to induct INS Kalvari in the navy by year-end. The trials have been good. So far we do not see the leaks affecting the schedule,” he added. The other five submarines are expected to be inducted after a gap of nine months each after the first.

“We must not forget the submarines are being built by us, so we have all the capabilities for making some changes if required,” the officer said. The official however maintained they do not see any need for changes “right now”. He said that India will have the real critical information on the boat once the trials are over, and reiterated the Indian Navy’s official line that the information in the documents is generic.

“The final signature of the submarine is still to be established. Those documents, that come out after the trials, will have the actual critical information and will be only with the Indian Navy,” the officer said. The disclosures in the leaked documents relate to cylindrical and flank array, sonar interception, acoustic signature and levels of noise radiation, among other details.

However, asked about the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), which was to give the submarines increased stealth, enabling them to stay under water for longer durations, the officer remained non-committal. “The technology is being developed by the DRDO; the process is going on,” he officer said.

The AIP system, being developed by the Maharashtra-based Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL), is a fuel cell that replaces diesel in conventional submarines. It converts methanol-like substances to produce hydrogen, which is the fuel that runs the cell to produce electricity.

While diesel engines need oxygen to function, these cells are air independent. The system also emits less noise, increasing its stealth — the most critical feature of a submarine. With this system, a conventional submarine that needs to surface every three to four days for replenishing its oxygen supply, can stay underwater for up to two weeks.

It was earlier expected to be fitted in at least last two of the six Scorpenes but officials later said it may miss the fifth one as well. The Scorpene submarines, which are being made by the Mazagaon Dock Limited (MDL), have been designed by the French firm DCNS, from where the documents are believed to have leaked.

The leak of documents came to light this week with a report in The Australian. The journalist who broke the story, Cameron Stewart, has said the documents were with a whistleblower for at least last two years in Australia. Before that, it was for an unknown period on an internet server in Singapore, exposed to threats like hacking. It is not known if anyone accessed the report at that time.

The documents have triggered fears that they may compromise the submarine’s stealth capabilities. Tracking a submarine involves sophisticated sonar equipment that can detect, classify, locate and track a vessel based on echoes from its hull and the noise it generates. Hull reflection, radio and radar signals and water pressure can also give away a submarine’s location.

 

[rishivashista13]

No delay in Scorpene programme, India capable of making changes: Navy officers
"We are expecting to induct INS Kalvari in the navy by year-end. The trials have been good. So far we do not see the leaks affecting the schedule," he added.
BY: IANS | NEW DELHI |Published On:August 28, 2016 5:09 PM

That's something positive .
Expecting that DRDO will make required changes without affecting the performance of submarine .

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[Scarface]

according to this article >>It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar:


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120206/jsp/frontpage/story_15098135.jsp


.

That doesn't exactly corroborate what you said does it ?

You claimed the French modified the M2KH to allow use of Israeli weapons , but it was India and Israel who did that on their own

The source says the French approved the adaptations.

That is in itself a very vague statement.

 

[pmaitra]

That doesn't exactly corroborate what you said does it ?

You claimed the French modified the M2KH to allow use of Israeli weapons , but it was India and Israel who did that on their own

The source says the French approved the adaptations.

That is in itself a very vague statement.

Probably some clause (requiring French approval so that warranty is not voided) in the agreement India and France signed when India acquired the Mirage 2000s.

 

[airtel]

That doesn't exactly corroborate what you said does it ?

You claimed the French modified the M2KH to allow use of Israeli weapons , but it was India and Israel who did that on their own

The source says the French approved the adaptations.

That is in itself a very vague statement.

it is not like "plug & play " system of Cable TV .............

to integrate the Israeli lightening Pod systems we need "source codes" .........that source code was provided by french ..........

without source codes we can not do anything ............

for example pakis can not use chini weapons on F-solah because they dont have source codes of F-16 .............

we can not use Astra , Sudershan , python , derby etc on Rafael if they dont Give us source codes ..............and most probably they will not Give .

we will be forced to buy costly French weapons ........like MICA ,meteor etc .

Russians Give us source codes and we use modified Avionics ................this is why we can Use Israeli /Indian weapons on Sukhoi -30 MKI .


.

 

[Zebra]

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[Zebra]

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[BON PLAN]

My bad, it got mixed out of carelessness. Sorry. I meant "during 2002 hostilities" with Pakistan.

OK.

But india was not afraid by a medium carrier with a few Rafale (at those time only able to make limited AtoA) and some super etendard.....
And our carrier is very often in may in the indian ocean.

 

[BON PLAN]

That doesn't exactly corroborate what you said does it ?

You claimed the French modified the M2KH to allow use of Israeli weapons , but it was India and Israel who did that on their own

The source says the French approved the adaptations.

That is in itself a very vague statement.

You forget the end of the article : " without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy ".

It's all but vague.