IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Screambowl]

We should ask for short finned barracude sub or a refund.Add more kilo class and ask Type 214 or Amur or S1000.

This is the only reason I still prefer Russia as main strategic partner. They do not leak information because it hurts their own interest.

 

[sayareakd]

French to save their face, should pay and give tech for the Barracude sub for free.

 

[Zebra]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-fired-French-source/articleshow/53860527.cms

DCNS is either trying to save their arse or they are in panic.
Of course it is a leak and leak happened through stealing.

But they have said that these documents were not classified. Well everything is on public domain hence obviously they are not classified.

I saw a tweet about this case in early morning, while I was just about to leave home for my job.

I thought I can post a thread here, but I was getting late. It was just after the few hours, when it got posted on twitter at mid night.

And in evening, after returning back from work, it was too late. The news were everywhere.

 

[airtel]

Scorpene leaks: Another set of documents released
Malaysia Sun (ANI) Friday 26th August, 2016

Sydney [Australia], Aug. 25 (ANI): The Australian on Thursday uploaded new set of documents on the Indian Navy Scorpene Submarine on its website, with detailed description of its underwater warfare system.

This is the second set of documents on the vessels that are being built in India by French firm DCNS, however, the publication has blacked out crucial details given that it could prove detrimental to India's defence.

India's national security stands gravely compromised following leaks of the entire design plans and specifications of the Scorpene submarine, containing 22,400 pages of the 'project 75' carrying the emblem of the Indian navy.

The first leak revealed the following:

. 4,301 pages of combat management system and 493 pages of torpedo systems

. The secret stealth capabilities of the six Scorpene submarines.

. 4, 457 pages of submarines underwater sensors and 4, 209 pages of submarines above water sensors.

. 6, 841 pages of the Scorpene submarines communications systems.

. The diving depth range details.

. Magnetic, electromagnetic and infrared data of the six submarines.

. Frequencies at which the submarines gather intelligence.

. Details of speed and conditions needed to use the periscope for the submarine.

. The noise specifications of the submarine's propellers.

. Radiated noise levels that occur when submarines surface, level of noise at various speed, places where submarine crew can speak to avoid detection by enemy have also been leaked.

On Wednesday, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar asked Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba to analyse the extent of the leak and find out whether it is related to India or not.

Parrikar said the government would come out with more information over the next couple of days.

On Tuesday, a report in Australian media revealed that sensitive information related to India's Scorpene submarines had been leaked, with French shipbuilder DCNS, which designed the submarine, facing a leak of documents spreading over 22,000 pages.

According to The Australian, the leak details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

The Indian Navy informed today that documents posted on the website by The Australian, don't pose any security compromise as vital parameters have been blacked out.

"Matter has been taken up with the DG of Armaments of the French Government. We have requested their government to investigate with urgency and share findings with India. An internal audit of procedures to rule out any security compromise is also being undertaken," the Navy said. (ANI)



WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

i think Indians are lying ......................this is very sensitive information .

how many submarines are built ?

can we change the specifications of rest of the submarines ??

 

[charlie]

A ex DCNS sub contractors is the source, the fear is that he sold the secrets but we do not know who.

A sub contractor will never have the amount of info that was leaked, as they are confined to system or solution they provided but again in a hypothetical situation where the client side or MDL leaked the info to the sub contrator and he lets it out is possible.

 

[indiatester]

Pardon my ignorance, but this is something I don't understand.
The security should lie in the operational procedures and tactics rather than the build.
If the entire $1bn submarine becomes unusable just because its manual got leaked, the investment is bad to start with.
The noise levels may be sensitive, but the sonar frequencies should be operation element. IMO even noise levels should be hard to detect, not info like I will scan at x db and I catch your sub.
The leak is bad agreed, but implying that the sub now a liability is not correct.

 

[rishivashista13]

Once information is leaked , what options we have now ?

How many things inside submarine we can reset again at different frequency ?


Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[Compersion]

someone will say it is a lot like Headley ... we take the hit and others are "protected". also someone will say and whisper from other perspectives it is similar to Headley ...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...information-security/articleshow/53862870.cms

"In the wake of leak of documents relating to India's Scorpene+ project, Australia has told French shipbuilding firm DCNS that it will demand the same level of information security on the new submarine project like it enjoys with its closest ally, the US.

The "warning" was issued privately to French shipbuilder DCNS by a senior Defence official hours after 'The Australian' newspaper broke the story on Wednesday that 22,400 secret DCNS document about India's new submarine fleet+ had been leaked."


Also

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...d-Scorpene-documents/articleshow/53863601.cms

"The Indians can object to the fact that these documents show the Pakistanis how to maintain their submarines and that's annoying, but it doesn't tell the Pakistanis how to detect an Indian ship, or how we build a submarine in France. Not at all," the source said.

It is not the Pakis that we worry about ... that already shows what is being said outside India ...

 

[Navnit Kundu]

No one in the media knows, or has the technical capacity to understand the scope of what has happened, they are creating their hype as usual "OMG something bad happened, submarine..bad...something something...bad submarine..leak...bad".

Such spying and industrial leaks keep happening all the time. During the Cold War, soviets had posted/paid airport staff at nearly all airports across the globe, these people would scan documents of all technical persons to steal data about new inventions that were happening. This always kept them ahead of the curve when it came to being prepared with counter-measures. When British intel figured the modus operandi they started planting fake scientists to carry fake industrial designs hoping that Soviet will steal them, and they fell for the trap. The Soviets tried to build weapons based on mismatching dimensions and wasted a lot of money.

Moral of the story is, this is how this world is, nothing is simple. It's not enough just to buy, build and store weapons as weapons are just one part of the whole defensive spectrum. These intel games have been going on since centuries and will continue to go on forever, one can't say "well, my weapon was good but someone stole my designs so life is unfair", well it IS unfair, so build redundancies based on that assumption alone. When it happens, dust yourself and move one. The kind of randi rona being done by the media with half baked 'facts' does not help. Did the media cry hoarse when Ajit Doval pointed out that NDTV was frequently breaching restricted security perimeters and shooting videos and pictures? did the media cry when Burqa broadcasted the location of our soldiers in Kargil? did media cry when the same bitch broadcasted the 26/11 operation live which led to the death of 200 people?

There's a logical amount of time until when any news article bears vanity value, after that it wanes out. It's annoying to turn on the TV and find fake defense experts talking about 'leaks' as if they care about leaks. Indian media itself is the biggest leak in the history of mankind.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

Once information is leaked , what options we have now ?

How many things inside submarine we can reset again at different frequency ?


Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

No one uses weapons right out of the box as is supplied to them by the OEM, especially electronic and cyber related capabilities where a single frequency here and there could mean the difference between having secure encryption and being tapped. I reckon there are ALWAYS last minute refits (esp electronic warfare frequencies) that are done without the knowledge of the soldiers when war breaks out so that any possibility of a previous leak shall be mitigated.

In this case, the only sensitive thing is the communication link, everything else is still good. The entire submarine doesn't become useless just because some technical data is leaked. We use proprietary electronics and sonar made by DRDO anyway. It's all manageable. The media coverage has become very nauseating.

This leak puts France in bad light though, and puts us in a better bargaining position vis-a-vis Rafale. The deal is already delayed and threatens to make the Rafale assembly line go cold if they don't get sales and now this submarine data leak! We need to negotiate from a position of strength, France is under a lot of pressure, labor protests are going on, approval of the President is an all time low, people are demoralized due to terror attacks, the President is desperate to look some redeeming deal to serve as a face saver to end his tenure, now is the time to squeeze out the maximum benefit for ourselves.

 

[Compersion]

No one uses weapons right out of the box as is supplied to them by the OEM, especially electronic and cyber related capabilities where a single frequency here and there could mean the difference between having secure encryption and being tapped. I reckon there are ALWAYS last minute refits (esp electronic warfare frequencies) that are done without the knowledge of the soldiers when war breaks out so that any possibility of a previous leak shall be mitigated.

In this case, the only sensitive thing is the communication link, everything else is still good. The entire submarine doesn't become useless just because some technical data is leaked. We use proprietary electronics and sonar made by DRDO anyway. It's all manageable. The media coverage has become very nauseating.

This leak puts France in bad light though, and puts us in a better bargaining position vis-a-vis Rafale. The deal is already delayed and threatens to make the Rafale assembly line go cold if they don't get sales and now this submarine data leak! We need to negotiate from a position of strength, France is under a lot of pressure, labor protests are going on, approval of the President is an all time low, people are demoralized due to terror attacks, the President is desperate to look some redeeming deal to serve as a face saver to end his tenure, now is the time to squeeze out the maximum benefit for ourselves.

Agree with pretty much what you say. But I would like the message be that we stood by France even with such a "attack" on their industry, prestige and them. But it must be done conclusively and Rafeal deal is in the sweet spot ... We must extract good TOT and IPR transfer and basic alliance with France from such ...

I would like that to be there because I feel we need such relationships ... Especially with the door wide open for India to nuke test again.

Also we need to talk to France what they want to be in future. We are seeing France surrendering too much and too essily. This also has a big dynamic of Germany ... Who will lead Europe Union (whatever its subsidiary and separations). There is also history of Israel and France that we must remind France. France is going to get a lot of spotlight and its current events not helping. Because message is being clear France from Mistral to Rafeal to Scorpene is being dictated and changed by others and too much ... But why !! Like you have rightly pointed out the discussions on this is mostly "entertainment" without good analysis. When we go get good analysis its restricted ...

 

[Navnit Kundu]

Agree with pretty much what you say. But I would like the message be that we stood by France even with such a "attack" on their industry, prestige and them.

I would like that to be there because I feel we need such relationships ... Especially with the door wide open for India to nuke test again.

Also we need to talk to France what they want to be in future. This also has a big dynamic of Germany ... Who will lead Europe Union (whatever its subsidiary and separations). Because message is being clear France from Mistral to Rafeal to Scorpene is being dictated by others ... But why !!

I don't like the undertones of the 'stood by', it sends a wrong message to the world and to our own people. France sold billions worth of war material to Pakistan and they were unapologetic about it, they didn't 'stand by' us. If you ask any French person they will say "we did what is in our best interest, we don't own you any explanation", and that is the truth. We Indians have been brought up with the notion that relation between sovereign nations are analogous to those between humans where trust, love, friendship triumps, that is why Indians think emotionally, that is why we have Indians who can say #RussiaFirst and #IsraelFirst but feel shy to say #IndiaFirst. We must not let our strategic decisions have emotional undertones, and we must especially avoid such a feeling from permeating among the consciousness of the masses. Let the people think "I trust my government, they will take the best decision for the nation and buy best weapon at lowest cost, doesn't matter if we switch vendors for a better deal".

After all, we owe nothing to France, we owe it to our own people to keep them safe and to get a good deal on weapons purchases. France doesn't suddenly get to claim to be our BFF after selling submarines and torpedoes and whatnot to Pakistan for years. They are cold and calculating, we are cold and calculating.

 

[harsh]

No one uses weapons right out of the box as is supplied to them by the OEM, especially electronic and cyber related capabilities where a single frequency here and there could mean the difference between having secure encryption and being tapped. I reckon there are ALWAYS last minute refits (esp electronic warfare frequencies) that are done without the knowledge of the soldiers when war breaks out so that any possibility of a previous leak shall be mitigated.

In this case, the only sensitive thing is the communication link, everything else is still good. The entire submarine doesn't become useless just because some technical data is leaked. We use proprietary electronics and sonar made by DRDO anyway. It's all manageable. The media coverage has become very nauseating.

This leak puts France in bad light though, and puts us in a better bargaining position vis-a-vis Rafale. The deal is already delayed and threatens to make the Rafale assembly line go cold if they don't get sales and now this submarine data leak! We need to negotiate from a position of strength, France is under a lot of pressure, labor protests are going on, approval of the President is an all time low, people are demoralized due to terror attacks, the President is desperate to look some redeeming deal to serve as a face saver to end his tenure, now is the time to squeeze out the maximum benefit for ourselves.

What you are saying is correct. But my concern is about the noise characteristics that can not be changed. How can you change engine noise on a particular speed or noise of propeller.
Some wepons characteristics also leaked which also a concern as the enemy know your strength.
And leak is a leak you can not be benefited with leaks. It is just a question how much it affects you and how can you negate it.

and about indian media they are rudalis they don't have brain to quote characteristics of a pistol right and we are expecting them to tell us about submarines.

Submarines are secret and they should be maintained that way a leak always hurt if it is about submarines.

 

[sayareakd]

Well now IN will go to DRDO to change specifications, its good that last two boats will have DRDO made AIP. Now it will be mandatory for test of the subs to have AIP of DRDO to have some different features and its high time that L&T should be rope in to add new chamber to add brahmos tubes at least 8 to 10.

Lets screw and ignore what ever French says now on and proceed to add things made for ATV.

As per sharing of classified info lets file cases against French Company and get compensation.

 

[Compersion]

I don't like the undertones of the 'stood by', it sends a wrong message to the world and to our own people. France sold billions worth of war material to Pakistan and they were unapologetic about it, they didn't 'stand by' us. If you ask any French person they will say "we did what is in our best interest, we don't own you any explanation", and that is the truth. We Indians have been brought up with the notion that relation between sovereign nations are analogous to those between humans where trust, love, friendship triumps, that is why Indians think emotionally, that is why we have Indians who can say #RussiaFirst and #IsraelFirst but feel shy to say #IndiaFirst. We must not let our strategic decisions have emotional undertones, and we must especially avoid such a feeling from permeating among the consciousness of the masses. Let the people think "I trust my government, they will take the best decision for the nation and buy best weapon at lowest cost, doesn't matter if we switch vendors for a better deal".

After all, we owe nothing to France, we owe it to our own people to keep them safe and to get a good deal on weapons purchases. France doesn't suddenly get to claim to be our BFF after selling submarines and torpedoes and whatnot to Pakistan for years. They are cold and calculating, we are cold and calculating.

You are absolutely having the right point. But that matters not only for France but all countries. My positioning is if India nuke tests again ... And I remember what certain countries said and did.

http://www.dayafterindia.com/detail.php?headline=content&catid=8635

Was that for economic reasons. Was that for self interests. Sometimes all those come Into alignments.

With France they are clearly going through a difficult time ... After we understand why and what and it stands the test ... Why not we stand by them ?? But like you said India first.

P.S with respect to Pakistan we must not forget to look at ourselves in the mirror. Its a fact Pakis are not grateful to India ... The shimla agreement can be cut like a cake ... But the main course meal is what we must remember not the last sweet (memory) taste. No matter what we try and think. And Pakis are having time run out for themselves ...

 

[vayuu1]

Why can't we go for kilo subs from Russia.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk

 

[Adioz]

What you are saying is correct. But my concern is about the noise characteristics that can not be changed. How can you change engine noise on a particular speed or noise of propeller.
Some wepons characteristics also leaked which also a concern as the enemy know your strength.
And leak is a leak you can not be benefited with leaks. It is just a question how much it affects you and how can you negate it.

I may be wrong but AFAIK:-
Each vessel has its own characteristic SONAR profile. This "signature" sound cannot be worked out in the design or construction phases. This "signature" is essentially recorded first during sea trails. Considering that the leak occurred long before the sea trials began.......i think its safe to say that the "signature" sound of the submarine has not been leaked.

I agree that the leak is a leak and it will hurt (especially since submarines are already a chink in our armour), but most frequencies like communication, etc can still be changed.
Just as Navnit said:-

No one uses weapons right out of the box as is supplied to them by the OEM, especially electronic and cyber related capabilities where a single frequency here and there could mean the difference between having secure encryption and being tapped. I reckon there are ALWAYS last minute refits (esp electronic warfare frequencies) that are done without the knowledge of the soldiers when war breaks out so that any possibility of a previous leak shall be mitigated.

In this case, the only sensitive thing is the communication link, everything else is still good. The entire submarine doesn't become useless just because some technical data is leaked. We use proprietary electronics and sonar made by DRDO anyway. It's all manageable.

The leak has occurred. What we need now is damage control.

 

[Adioz]

Does it look desperate if I want to believe that the leak is all a misinformation campaign by RAW?

 

[Navnit Kundu]

The leak has occurred. What we need now is damage control.[/B]

Sure. But we don't even know what the extent of damage is. And I don't think we would have been naive enough to be using their sensitive electronic equipment anyway. For example whenever we buy Russian stuff, be it tanks or anything else, we only take the vehicle but swap out the core electronics with our own. This includes communication modules, radars and EW functionality. Same goes for the submarine. Assuming that we were going to use French electronics and sonar AS IS implies that we were comfortable with France knowing all those details because even if this wasn't leaked, at least France would have known our capabilities anyway. There's always a risk that they could pass it on to US or Pakistan if need arises (they did this during Falklands war when they passed codes of Exocet missiles to Britain to defeat Argentina which was using French missiles). So I am sure we are just fine. We have our own communication and EW suite manufactured by Bharat Electronics which is an EMP proof hardened system which we use on our core systems.

The damage from this leak might be minimal. There might be a political reason why this news has been hyped up so much.

 

[harsh]

Sure. But we don't even know what the extent of damage is. And I don't think we would have been naive enough to be using their sensitive electronic equipment anyway. For example whenever we buy Russian stuff, be it tanks or anything else, we only take the vehicle but swap out the core electronics with our own. This includes communication modules, radars and EW functionality. Same goes for the submarine. Assuming that we were going to use French electronics and sonar AS IS implies that we were comfortable with France knowing all those details because even if this wasn't leaked, at least France would have known our capabilities anyway. There's always a risk that they could pass it on to US or Pakistan if need arises (they did this during Falklands war when they passed codes of Exocet missiles to Britain to defeat Argentina which was using French missiles). So I am sure we are just fine. We have our own communication and EW suite manufactured by Bharat Electronics which is an EMP proof hardened system which we use on our core systems.

The damage from this leak might be minimal. There might be a political reason why this news has been hyped up so much.

Yes we change some of the electronics and communication instruments when we buy wepons. But most of the time main radar or sonar is same. Scorpene has its own sonar and wepon management systems in indian version also. They are more advance than ours.
so we kept that.
we can change electronics but that will be quite a hectic job to do. And also money and time consuming.
France got the money they don't even spend a penny on this project now.

this is sure that we will control the damage as 3.9 bn dollars are involved. We can not waste them.

the question now is

can we trust france now?
Can now we place more order for scorpene submarines?
What are the options left for p75 I?
This leak comes in some biggest leaks of indian navy. And this is not from india. We cannot do anything about it.
And only franch are to blame on it.