Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Sancho]

Could you please tell me when Gripen E will achive FOC ? (I heard its 2025, feeling too lazy to ask Google the moment)

You are evidently also too lazy to click on the links I gave you already, because then you would have that from 2023 onwards the final software is planned for integration and with that FOC capability.

 

[Sancho]

Su MKI can do everything that these planes can do and more

By that logic we wouldn't need Tejas either, because MKI can do everything it does, just better.
However, you don't need you highest capable fighter, that often also comes with the highest operational costs, for all roles. That's why most Air Forces have a fighter mix, to divert missions like CAP, QRA, reconnaissance..., to other fighters that are either more suited, or can do the same in with less costs.
=> MMRCAs are suppose to give IAF an operational more cost-effective alternative to the heavy class twin seat MKIs and since the government has split the requirement into a strategic part that the Rafales will take over, the SE MMRCAs will cover other planned MMRCA roles, just in higher numbers to be deployed all around the country.

Not the ideal scenario, but given the issues with Dassault, the budget situation and Chinas advance, there is no way around MMRCAs in useful numbers. The sooner the better!

 

[Kay]

By that logic we wouldn't need Tejas either, because MKI can do everything it does, just better.
However, you don't need you highest capable fighter, that often also comes with the highest operational costs, for all roles. That's why most Air Forces have a fighter mix, to divert missions like CAP, QRA, reconnaissance..., to other fighters that are either more suited, or can do the same in with less costs.
=> MMRCAs are suppose to give IAF an operational more cost-effective alternative to the heavy class twin seat MKIs and since the government has split the requirement into a strategic part that the Rafales will take over, the SE MMRCAs will cover other planned MMRCA roles, just in higher numbers to be deployed all around the country.

Not the ideal scenario, but given the issues with Dassault, the budget situation and Chinas advance, there is no way around MMRCAs in useful numbers. The sooner the better!

Exactly, we need a cost effective solution. Imports are not cost effective. The very idea of importing to get a cost effective solution is self-defeating. Money is best kept inside the country and spent on home grown solutions.

 

[Immanuel]

USA didn't sell it to Saudi Arabia. Will it sell to India?

US has always been willing for talks but since we already signed on for the PAKFA and AMCA, the IAF felt like the F-35 would not be needed. With PAKFA for India now heading to a slow death, actually the F-35 makes more sense. With AMCA coming up mid next decade, the F-35 would be an ideal co partner for AMCA.

LM would sell the F-35 in a heart beat and so would the state department. Heck having the F-35 A, B and C makes more sense to me than buying Rafales or SH for IN or current Falcon VS Gripen E SEF.

Ideally, if we order 90-100 F-35A for IAF as part of the SEF, 40-60 F-35C for IN to be used on IAC-2/3 and around 40 F-35B to be used used from shore and as well from the 4 San Antonio class LPDs. We would then be looking at roughly 200 fighters. With such a large order, we'd have the largest order book outside the US, we can surely have local assembly, some basic or even decent TOT and we'd end up being the key location for global supply chain especially for all future customers in Asia/Middile East for MRO etc. This way both IAF, IN needs can be met with a 5th gen fighter. Ordered next year or in 2020/21 after trials, LM could begin deliveries by 2023/24 and local line would end up churning out the remaining orders over a period of 8-10 years.

Keeping in mind we won't sign current or future versions of CISMOA that we consider to be intrusive, The Indian F-35 will end up having a lot of local items as well including datalinks, IFF, Comms etc. Also I can see a lot of Indian weapons being integrated onto it from Garuthma Glide Bombs, SAAW bombs, Astra Mk-2. Existing weapons in stock like Paveways, Griffins, Spice, Meteor etc would readily deployable from the F-35 by then as well.

The timelines anyways are focusing on mid next decade and the F-35 would be the best bet.

 

[Steven Rogers]

=>

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/strategic-partnership-model-takes-effect/article18683421.ece

The DPP2016 also has new clauses, to include single vendor deals and after the Rafale deal, that's not an issue for this government anyway.



The first Gripen E will be delivered next year to Brazilian Air Force:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ighter-jet-contest.78028/page-95#post-1383547


Not really, the reports about Leh problems came out in March 2010, Gripen NG did the trials in May and reportedly was successful. Not to mention that the issue was only some adjustments to the fuel systems of the fighters, that wasn't a big deal anyway. More problematic back then was, that Saab and Mig didn't had actual versions of the fighters they proposed.

The biggest issues in this tender is none of the false claims you made, but if funds are available for more MMRCAs, which with the condition of our economy is not guaranteed and if the PM wants another political deal, but this time in favour of the US? After Rafale and Ka226, an F16 deal can't be ruled out, even if it's the worst choice for IAF.

Sir what's the source for Gripen E in Brazil airforce in 2019

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[Steven Rogers]

US has always been willing for talks but since we already signed on for the PAKFA and AMCA, the IAF felt like the F-35 would not be needed. With PAKFA for India now heading to a slow death, actually the F-35 makes more sense. With AMCA coming up mid next decade, the F-35 would be an ideal co partner for AMCA.

LM would sell the F-35 in a heart beat and so would the state department. Heck having the F-35 A, B and C makes more sense to me than buying Rafales or SH for IN or current Falcon VS Gripen E SEF.

Ideally, if we order 90-100 F-35A for IAF as part of the SEF, 40-60 F-35C for IN to be used on IAC-2/3 and around 40 F-35B to be used used from shore and as well from the 4 San Antonio class LPDs. We would then be looking at roughly 200 fighters. With such a large order, we'd have the largest order book outside the US, we can surely have local assembly, some basic or even decent TOT and we'd end up being the key location for global supply chain especially for all future customers in Asia/Middile East for MRO etc. This way both IAF, IN needs can be met with a 5th gen fighter. Ordered next year or in 2020/21 after trials, LM could begin deliveries by 2023/24 and local line would end up churning out the remaining orders over a period of 8-10 years.

Keeping in mind we won't sign current or future versions of CISMOA that we consider to be intrusive, The Indian F-35 will end up having a lot of local items as well including datalinks, IFF, Comms etc. Also I can see a lot of Indian weapons being integrated onto it from Garuthma Glide Bombs, SAAW bombs, Astra Mk-2. Existing weapons in stock like Paveways, Griffins, Spice, Meteor etc would readily deployable from the F-35 by then as well.

The timelines anyways are focusing on mid next decade and the F-35 would be the best bet.

First We are partnering for PMF, and it's not dying. The project is termed as classified by Air chief BS Dhanoa

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[Immanuel]

F35 is not on offer for India, LM says buy F16 now and get F35 in future. But similarly, if we get F18s now to get EMALS, the F35C will be available for sure too, no need for F16s that are bad for India in every way.

Well not true, the F-35 has already been presented to IN and IAF in the past, IAF was not interested because of PAKFA and AMCA, IN wasn't interested because well they hardly had a carrier and their plans were even more unclear, not that they are any clearer today. LM is focused on F-16 today because they would like to keep selling it as long as possible. A lot depends on IAF and MOD

 

[Immanuel]

First We are partnering for PMF, and it's not dying. The project is termed as classified by Air chief BS Dhanoa

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Classified for a project this scale is not possible, as said, either we are in or we are out, there is no other option to keep a lid on it when billions will be spent, if at all. Secondly, even if PMF goes through, the SEF competition's RFP is not out yet, the RFP could force LM to offer the F-35 if IAF so chooses.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Classified for a project this scale is not possible, as said, either we are in or we are out, there is no other option to keep a lid on it when billions will be spent, if at all. Secondly, even if PMF goes through, the SEF competition's RFP is not out yet, the RFP could force LM to offer the F-35 if IAF so chooses.

It won't come, as LM has stayed away when navy sent them RFI for deck based aircraft, they avoided to respond, now come F35 its only a someone's dream and nothing else. F35 won't be offered to India even if India signs the other two contract. And if India gets F35, her capabilities will be significantly reduced which are said to be increased with PMF, and indeed it was said by BS DHNOA
http://idrw.org/5th-generation-fgfa-jet-acquisition-report-is-classified-iaf-chief/

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[Immanuel]

But with LCA mk-2 and AMCA fully sanctioned as of today and funding coming through soon, we could see an end to imported SEF contest. Would be great if IAF order atleast another 10 sqds of LCA mk-2.

 

[tejas warrior]

But with LCA mk-2 and AMCA fully sanctioned as of today and funding coming through soon, we could see an end to imported SEF contest. Would be great if IAF order atleast another 10 sqds of LCA mk-2.

Inshallah, we will have 400+ Tejas in different variants.

All import Dalal and their puppies will jobless.

 

[Immanuel]

It won't come, as LM has stayed away when navy sent them RFI for deck based aircraft, they avoided to respond, now come F35 its only a someone's dream and nothing else. F35 won't be offered to India even if India signs the other two contract. And if India gets F35, her capabilities will be significantly reduced which are said to be increased with PMF, and indeed it was said by BS DHNOA
http://idrw.org/5th-generation-fgfa-jet-acquisition-report-is-classified-iaf-chief/

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You are entirely incorrect, LM had briefed the IN and IAF in early 2010 for the F-35. IN and IAF can easily discuss the F-35, perhaps in a different way which doesn't follow a typical RFP and competitive process. Not that easy when the F-35 is entirely a single pilot fighter, this would mean even for trials our pilots would need to complete full F-35 training without any commitments of purchase, this could be an issue with the Americans. For F-35 to be acquired for India, US Govt. LM, IAF, IN, PMO and MOD would have to come up with a partnering process which is very different from purchases thus far which could include India buying around a dozen F-35 for evaluation by IAF and IN with a commitment to buying atleast a 4-5 sqds which again could be uncomfy for India.

As for PMF being superior to F-35, we'll see when PMF is readier than the F-35. As for dumbing down of the F-35 (fake news), has not happened. None of the customers so far have any issues regarding this.

 

[Kshithij]

You are entirely incorrect, LM had briefed the IN and IAF in early 2010 for the F-35. IN and IAF can easily discuss the F-35, perhaps in a different way which doesn't follow a typical RFP and competitive process. Not that easy when the F-35 is entirely a single pilot fighter, this would mean even for trials our pilots would need to complete full F-35 training without any commitments of purchase, this could be an issue with the Americans. For F-35 to be acquired for India, US Govt. LM, IAF, IN, PMO and MOD would have to come up with a partnering process which is very different from purchases thus far which could include India buying around a dozen F-35 for evaluation by IAF and IN with a commitment to buying atleast a 4-5 sqds which again could be uncomfy for India.

As for PMF being superior to F-35, we'll see when PMF is readier than the F-35. As for dumbing down of the F-35 (fake news), has not happened. None of the customers so far have any issues regarding this.

Israel hasn't bought 100+ F35. Si, ehy this special condition of 100+ (4-5squadron) to India? Also, for Navy, there isn't enough storage on the deck for even 40 F35 (IAC-1) and hence 100+ is rules out.

F35B has VTOL which makes it easy to fly from any deck or place without need for runways

 

[Sancho]

Exactly, we need a cost effective solution. Imports are not cost effective. The very idea of importing to get a cost effective solution is self-defeating. Money is best kept inside the country and spent on home grown solutions.

The whole reason why we have to import stuff is, that we can't develop similar things on our own so far.
- US engines, because of Kaveri failure
- Israeli radar modes and possibly foreign AESA, because of the issues and delays in our radar programms
- British nose and refuelling probe, because our materials were not suitable
=> foreign medium class fighters, because we can't develop similar as well.

So of course it would be the best, if we could invest the money into our own industry and get the results we want, but that's simply not realistic as the LCA programm showed.
We still need to bridge the gap and learn, with the aim on replacing foreign parts over time and doing more things alone in future.

 

[Sancho]

Sir what's the source for Gripen E in Brazil airforce in 2019

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=>
http://www.janes.com/article/74696/...duction-schedule-embraer-s-manufacturing-role

 

[Sancho]

Well not true, the F-35 has already been presented to IN and IAF in the past, IAF was not interested because of PAKFA and AMCA, IN wasn't interested because well they hardly had a carrier and their plans were even more unclear, not that they are any clearer today. LM is focused on F-16 today because they would like to keep selling it as long as possible. A lot depends on IAF and MOD

A company can give presentations, but the export approval comes from the US government and as said, throughout the MMRCA and now in the SE MMRCA, the official statement is, F16 now => F35 later.
IN even sent an RFI to LM, without getting a reply. So even if India would be interested now, it's not on offer from the US.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Fairly realistic from their point of view. Indian defence industry still don't have anything new to offer.

So what you are saying is that HAL, today, is incapable of upgrading avionics of SU-30MKI; using a mix of Indian and foreign sourced equipment? In addition, HAL is incapable of carrying out a comprehensive check of the airframe and replacing worn out parts with new ones and also replacing engines--if at all it is part of MLU-- despite producing 100s MKI from raw material stage including Al-31s?

Only recently NAL-HAL carried out the integration of Brahmos on SU-30MKI without any help from Russians.

If this how planners envisioned HAL 15 years into production,of MKIs then why the heck they even bothered with ToT?

TOT is for existing technologies, nothing to do with the future ones.

Russians have backtracked from agreed terms on many occasions.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

A company can give presentations, but the export approval comes from the US government and as said, throughout the MMRCA and now in the SE MMRCA, the official statement is, F16 now => F35 later.
IN even sent an RFI to LM, without getting a reply. So even if India would be interested now, it's not on offer from the US.

Lockheed Martin has a stranglehold over the US Senate. If India says it will buy a significant quantity of F 35's, the Americans send their wives as complementary.

 

[Kshithij]

So of course it would be the best, if we could invest the money into our own industry and get the results we want, but that's simply not realistic as the LCA programm showed.
We still need to bridge the gap and learn, with the aim on replacing foreign parts over time and doing more things alone in future.

You are saying that political failure is failure of scientists? How much funding did Kaveri receive? 2100 crores till 2014. Is this funding enough to do anything?

Without taking into account congress' treacher, there is no point harping on it again and again

@nongaddarliberal USA won't give away technology for money. USA is not short sighted. It understands the concept of investment and won't simply give away key technology to everyone. There is a reason why USA doesn't sell weapons to China despite having such huge trade imbalance and China willing to buy

 

[Sancho]

Lockheed Martin has a stranglehold over the US Senate. If India says it will buy a significant quantity of F 35's, the Americans send their wives as complementary.

That's an opinion, not a fact and as said, IN showed specific interest and was turned down.