Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Sancho]

Sieh dir den Tweet von @RAeSTimR an:
Sieh dir den Tweet von @DanielRDarling an:
Indian defence procurement, the laughing stock for the world.

Sieh dir den Tweet von @clary_co an:

 

[Dovah]

@Mods @Kunal Biswas @Dovah @sayareakd Time to close this thread?
Multiple threads create confusion.
Further discussions can be at:
Govt scraps single-engine fighters plan, asks IAF to go for wider competition

^Also, can we please rename the new thread as MMRCA 2.0

Hope this time MoD does not screw it up.

Let us wait for an official statement.

 

[Sancho]

We don't know what is happening behind the scenes. Government never takes unilateral decision.

Ehm, Rafale deal? There was never an IAF request for 36 fighters, nor even for Rafales. The decision was not even taken by consulting IAF or the MoD, both were only informed by the PMO.

So instead of speculating andstrengthening anti Modi government forces, let's wait for more information and clarification from IAF or Government for the rationale behind the decision.

Increasing the competitors again, is an admition, that they wasted 1-2 years now and is also contrary to their fast tracking slogans. So to do that publicly now they have to gain otherwise and the only logical reason to go back from their own tender, is to delay a decision after the election.

I can speculate that maybe by this delaying tactics, government can force IAF to order more LCA in currentconfiguration or MK1A and simultaneously speed up MK2 and procure more orders for MK2.

Neither can the government force IAF (otherwise Parrikar had ordered more MKIs) to fighters that not fulfill the requirements, nor has LCA any relation to it, since it always was and always will be a "separate" requirement for IAF! That's why IAF explained last year once again, that LCAs "alone" can't protect the country and that it requires both light and medium fighters in useful numbers.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sieh dir den Tweet von @clary_co an:

Yes, Mirage-2000H was the original MRCA idea. Which is in the same weight class as Tejas MK-2 and Tejas MK-2 has been already sanctioned by the GOI. So the end of MRCA became imminent.

I won't be surprised if this new twin-engine MRCA tender turns out to be another farce (a veiled purchase of 56 Rafales for NAVY and 36 more for IAF as follow-on purchase) like SEF. Which in other words would mean, GOI giving a quiet burial to original '126 tender' and deciding to fulfil this requirement with Tejas MK-2. Since an outright cancellation of such a huge tender stretching for such a long period could create a lot of repercussion in the geopolitical arena, a re-branding in being done here.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

currently its MMRCA 3.0

1.0 MMRCA
2.0 Single engine MRCA
3.0 Back to 1.0

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-asks-iaf-to-go-for-wider-competition.80817/

 

[Sancho]

Yes, Mirage-2000H was the original MRCA idea. Which is in the same weight class as Tejas MK-2

Lol, based on? We don't even have any official specs for MK1A and you pretend to know what the MK2 will be around 2027.

 

[SorryNotSorry]

Here’s a discussion that you guys might find relevant. The second half is mostly about Arjun, so ignore it if you must.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Lol, based on? We don't even have any official specs for MK1A and you pretend to know what the MK2 will be around 2027.

Based on informed estimates. 'Pretending' is what losers do.

Anyway, no, we know much about MK-1A that can be known in public arena. A Tejas MK-1 platform with ~400 kgs less empty weight, refined FCS for greater manoeuvrability, a package of new AESA, sensors and EW systems and mid-air refuelling capability. Platform's dimensions are gonna remain same. Everyone knows about these.

About MK-2, enough hints have been given here and there about how it would look like in future. Only changes it might get from here on will be upwards of what that is already there. Even canard on MK-2 has been hinted. Which is a significant departure from the nominally improved upgraded concept of AF model circa 2009. Even that concept is almost in the Mirage-2000-5 category in terms of dimensions(marginally shorter), beats it hands down in rest namely avionics, sensors etc. Flying ability of even Tejas MK-1 beats Mirage 2000, so I won't mention that.

The N-LCA MK-2 which is almost a re-designed airframe that has dimensions larger than Mirage-2000-5. Its obvious advantages over AF MK-2 circa 2009 leaves no logical reason to say why IAF won't opt for a ground-based version of this design especially when the engine is same. And the 'time-saving' that AF model was designed keeping in mind has already been lost. So any point in settling for less? Ans is, no.

What else do you need to know?

 

[Rahul Singh]

currently its MMRCA 3.0

1.0 MMRCA
2.0 Single engine MRCA
3.0 Back to 1.0

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-asks-iaf-to-go-for-wider-competition.80817/

Actually, 1.0 MRCA was actually about purchasing 126 jets from abroad and also about earning dollars for an evil lady. The follow-ons are just a way to avoid purchasing anything that is avoidable and also to buy time to keep developing indigenous designs without losing a bit in the geopolitical arena.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Actually, 1.0 MRCA was actually about purchasing 126 jets from abroad and also about earning dollars for an evil lady. The follow-ons are just a way to avoid purchasing anything that is avoidable and also to buy time to keep developing indigenous designs without losing a bit in the geopolitical arena.

If we are talking about indigenous designs then there is no point of issuing single engine fighter tender (since we only have 2 fighter available on the market with credible capabilities which we canceled it now ) we should have jut gone for more Rafales. and now we are going back to MMRCA again which involves same companies . 126 deal should have been rectified rather than cancellation since currently we are going back to it so it dosen't make sense. total waste of valuable time . just Push for tejas in single engine category and stick with more Rafales

 

[Rahul Singh]

e

If we are talking about indigenous designs then there is not point of issuing single engine fighter tender (since we only have 2 fighter available on the market with credible capabilities which we canceled it now ) we should have jut gone for more Rafales. and now we are going back to MMRCA again which involves same companies . 126 deal should have been rectified rather than cancellation since currently we are going back to it so it dosen't make sense. total waste of valuable time . just Push for tejas in single engine category and stick with more Rafales

In technical terms you are right. This should be been done that way. However, today any purchase of military hardware is much more than just getting a fighter jet or an MBT or anything. Today first priority for a nation as big as ours is what we will gain besides getting the hardware? Often it is about just transfer of technology as used to be. But with present government in power, more emphasis is being paid to gains in geopolitics than anything else.

SEF has been cancelled not because of anything but USA's unwillingness in sharing designed technologies. Which may have been our primary aim behind issuing SEF.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

e

In technical terms you are right. This should be been done that way. However, today any purchase of military hardware is much more than just getting a fighter jet or an MBT or anything. IToday first priority for a nation as big as ours is what we will gain besides getting the hardware? Often it is about just about transfer of technology as used to be. But with present government in power, more emphasis is being paid to gains in geopolitics than anything else.

SEF has been cancelled not because of anything but USA's unwillingness in sharing designed technologies. Which may have been our primary aim behind issuing SEF.

we all know the US will never share its critical tech with any one heck Uk was Butt hurt when they where denied F22's . so we should have never put our faith in ToT when it comes to US hardware it for sale that's it. it ends there so SEF is a mistake thinking the we can get tech from US because there own defense industry is a huge market in itself. so never ever keep any hopes of ToT from USA simple.

The problem is we don't have time trust me, the currently government also dosen't have the luxury for time . Even if they, I mean current government comes to power for second term still it's will not have much time. God forbid if a new Guy comes to office . they will try everything in there power to find some fault and stall everything and we are back to square one

 

[Rahul Singh]

we all know the US will never share its critical tech with any one heck Uk was Butt hurt when they where denied F22's . so we should have never put our faith in ToT when it comes to US hardware it for sale that's it. it ends there so SEF is a mistake thinking the we can get tech from US because there own defense industry is a huge market in itself. so never ever keep any hopes of ToT from USA simple.

Yes, but it had to be reaffirmed in the context of "India is needed for countering China". A concept that is juggling around even today. At least now we can say 'NO' to USA wherever we are not comfortable, citing SEF ToT denial.

Least it did was establishing a case.

The problem is we don't have time trust me, the currently government also dosen't have the luxury for time . Even if they, I mean current government comes to power for second term still it's will not have much time. God forbid if a new Guy comes to office . they will try everything in there power to find some fault and stall everything and we are back to square one

There is no alternative to producing our own weapons. For our country, it is a must for at least two reasons. First, we are a very big nation with a huge military requirement. Second in democracy bureaucracy is mostly cumbersome hence no such deal will ever conclude in time. Never!

So best we should do is try developing indigenous weapons and keep scaling up our military-industrial complex. Meanwhile, continue buying time without losing international influences through smart moves.

 

[Rahul Singh]

If we are talking about indigenous designs then there is no point of issuing single engine fighter tender (since we only have 2 fighter available on the market with credible capabilities which we canceled it now ) we should have jut gone for more Rafales. and now we are going back to MMRCA again which involves same companies . 126 deal should have been rectified rather than cancellation since currently we are going back to it so it dosen't make sense. total waste of valuable time . just Push for tejas in single engine category and stick with more Rafales

Tejas is dependent on a foreign engine. If we go too aggressive that is say openly saying no to any import. Then next thing that will happen might be L.M forcing Pentagon to force GE to stop selling F-404 & 414 to India. Then what option we will have?

We need to play smartly till we are developed enough to go exclusive.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Tejas is dependent on a foreign engine. If we go too aggressive that is say openly saying no to any import. Then next thing that will happen might be L.M forcing Pentagon to force GE to stop selling F-404 & 414 to India. Then what option we will have?

We need to play smartly till we are developed enough to go exclusive.

I never said no to any import I said we need to set our priorities straight not just issuing RFI's and cancelling we are responsible for failure to develop our own military industrial complex . LM and GE are 2 different orgs so it will not have any issue because we already cancelled SEF

That is the problem we are not playing smartly

 

[Rahul Singh]

I never said no to any import I said we need to set our priorities straight not just issuing RFI's and cancelling we are responsible for failure to develop our own military industrial complex . LM and GE are 2 different orgs so it will not have any issue because we already cancelled SEF

That is the problem we are not playing smartly

Failure in developing MIC has roots in past precisely in highly corrupt Indian National Congress-led governments. I leave it to that.

As far as the present government is concerned they rescued Tejas from slow path to death with MK-1A. They are doing everything possible to take Indian aviation sector further by sanctioning Tejas MK-2 and increasing funding for AMCA.

As far as repeated RFIs are concerned. Nobody knows for sure whey they are doing this. However, everybody is making guesstimates. Which in my case is GOI keeping foreign players interested with RFIs while allowing Indian aviation in general and Tejas in particular progress. Maybe they are waiting for a time when all India will require are few so far denied critical technologies. Then GOI may say to any interested party, sell us that technology rest we have, already.

In my opinion, GOI is raising the bar while keeping the bargaining chips intact. They are buying time.

--------
SEF has been cancelled but the inclusion of F-18 is keeping pentagon interested. So the supply of F-404 and 414 are insured. GOI might keep the USA interested by various means until we have developed an engine of our own.

Besides Tejas our interest in Afghanistan requires us to keep USA interested.

 

[WolfPack86]

Failure in developing MIC has roots in past precisely in highly corrupt Indian National Congress-led governments. I leave it to that.

As far as the present government is concerned they rescued Tejas from slow path to death with MK-1A. They are doing everything possible to take Indian aviation sector further by sanctioning Tejas MK-2 and increasing funding for AMCA.

As far as repeated RFIs are concerned. Nobody knows for sure whey they are doing this. However, everybody is making guesstimates. Which in my case is GOI keeping foreign players interested with RFIs while allowing Indian aviation in general and Tejas in particular progress. Maybe they are waiting for a time when all India will require are few so far denied critical technologies. Then GOI may say to any interested party, sell us that technology rest we have, already.

In my opinion, GOI is raising the bar while keeping the bargaining chips intact. They are buying time.

--------
SEF has been cancelled but the inclusion of F-18 is keeping pentagon interested. So the supply of F-404 and 414 are insured. GOI might keep the USA interested by various means until we have developed an engine of our own.

Besides Tejas our interest in Afghanistan requires us to keep USA interested.

If Indian Navy selects F-18 advanced super hornet then there will be more GE F414 engines coming to India and who knows there will be more technology transfer for GE F414 engines to India.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Failure in developing MIC has roots in past precisely in highly corrupt Indian National Congress-led governments. I leave it to that.

As far as the present government is concerned they rescued Tejas from slow path to death with MK-1A. They are doing everything possible to take Indian aviation sector further by sanctioning Tejas MK-2 and increasing funding for AMCA.

As far as repeated RFIs are concerned. Nobody knows for sure whey they are doing this. However, everybody is making guesstimates. Which in my case is GOI keeping foreign players interested with RFIs while allowing Indian aviation in general and Tejas in particular progress. Maybe they are waiting for a time when all India will require are few so far denied critical technologies. Then GOI may say to any interested party, sell us that technology rest we have, already.

In my opinion, GOI is raising the bar while keeping the bargaining chips intact. They are buying time.

--------
SEF has been cancelled but the inclusion of F-18 is keeping pentagon interested. So the supply of F-404 and 414 are insured. GOI might keep the USA interested by various means until we have developed an engine of our own.

Besides Tejas our interest in Afghanistan requires us to keep USA interested.

Based on what you said above we should not have any issues selecting the appropriate fighter. All the tests have already been carried out during MMRCA trails . The only hurdle I can see is price negotiations . hope it goes smoothly and quick

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

hi @tarunraju

can you please merge below thread here Thank you

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-asks-iaf-to-go-for-wider-competition.80817/

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

India’s Fighter Jet Procurement Saga Zooms Into Familiar Jumble

Here’s a quick challenge. Find us anyone in the business that’s truly surprised with the big development in India’s jet contracting journey this week. The rumblings of it had been known for months, but this week the Ministry of Defence made it official the only way it knows how — through a series of strategically placed source-attributed press reports making the announcement. Those familiar with the way the MoD does things, especially in the singularly meandering and turbulent world of military aircraft purchasing, knew this was practically the real thing.

What stands scrapped now is India’s much touted plan to choose between Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 70 and Saab’s Gripen E and have a leading private corporate house build over a hundred in India as part of the Make in India program. A series of newspaper reports this week quote unnamed ministry sources as saying that the original stipulation to build only a single engine fighter in country was seen as restrictive.

There’s a gentle, almost lilting absurdity to the proceedings. The single engine fighter program was fashioned from the detritus and lessons of India’s most well known (and ultimately doomed) fighter procurement effort, the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) program. Icarus-like in its ambitions and variously described as a beauty contest on specs, the breathtakingly disparate contest between light, medium and heavy fighters sought to contrive a industry standard-setting template to choose and procure military jets. All in an effort to bring 126 new fighter jets into the Indian Air Force, with most of them built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While the process itself finally resulted in India down-selecting the Typhoon and Rafale — with the latter technically emerging triumphant — budgetary and other constraints meant that the deal was dust. One of the successors to the doomed M-MRCA was the now politically contentious ‘flyaway’ procurement of 36 Rafale fighters in 2016 in a straight government to government deal with France. But since 36 fighters were never going to fill the IAF’s squadron hunger, it was deemed necessary to think smaller. A single-engine fighter program was thus proposed, in the hope that a smaller lighter fighter would be faster to process, cheaper to build and budget-friendly to procure. It is this effort that has now been, well, shot down.

Given that the M-MRCA selection process is one that a former IAF chief famously wanted to patent, reports suggesting that the government is hoping to hold another full contest to choose a fighter is more than just odd. It would, for starters, completely discredit the M-MRCA selection process, the system that fashioned and guided the process, as well as the reliability of the Indian government. But given that jet procurement has has now become a familiar political flashpoint between the ruling party and the opposition (it was under the latter that the MMRCA was pioneered, guided and finally stalled), the idea of brand new selection process isn’t beyond the realm of imagination. That, of course, isn’t saying much in a playground that has over a decade distinguished itself by profoundly uninterrupted whim.

Secondly, it is unclear how a new contest that involves both single and twin engine fighters addresses the crippling cost wall that doomed the MMRCA. Nothing suggests that the MoD and air force have evolved a better template to choose aircraft. Far from it, the Strategic Partnership policy has made it significantly more complex and time-consuming. A looming election in 2019 doesn’t help.

And that’s probably why the Indian Air Force is typically nervous, though the last decade or so has given the IAF a stronger disposition to disappointment in the field of fighters than most air forces around the world, not to mention the IAF’s own hand in the current state of affairs. Failing to defend the single engine program, the IAF has no choice once again but to bow to MoD concerns. Reports this week suggest the IAF is pushing for a quick government to government deal, rather than meandering contest. What’s fully unclear is what aircraft they’re talking about. The Rafale? The Americans? None of the above? Unclear.

The scrapping of the single engine fighter build program also fuses two procurement intents — for single and twin engine fighters. The latter wasn’t announced but widely expected to have followed the first. Notionally, a selection process going forward under the facts so far known, will include the original MMRCA six-pack: the Rafale, Typhoon, F/A-18, MiG-35, F-16 and Gripen.

Significantly, Livefist learns that the Indian Air Force has launched an all-out internal opposition to the Indian Navy’s separate quest for 57 carrier fighters. This makes things even more delicate, considering that the navy’s prospective contest is a highly constrained two-horse race between Boeing’s F/A-18 and Dassault’s Rafale. Sources say the IAF believes the navy’s contest could be used to constrain the former’s own choices on what aircraft it should choose from, since it stands to reason that type commonality will be a priority. At doctrinal meetings over the last year, sources present tell Livefist that IAF representatives have even suggested that the roles of carrier-based fighters can easily be fulfilled by shore-based IAF squadrons. Merits of aircraft carriers aside, with a concrete aircraft carrier build plan by India at least for the moment makes such a flashpoint somewhat theoretical. What it does indubitably is add to the tensions and pressures that bristle through the procurement landscape, threatening at every stage to help pull plugs.

The new developments once again focus attention on obsessive platform-specific planning at the Indian Air Force rather than one that hinges on a long-term capability roadmap — an affliction that has evolved a crippling inability to look beyond the limited scope of clearly difficult contests.

That the single engine fighter program was on shaky ground has been known for over a year. In July last year, Russia abruptly re-entered the conversation by aggressively pitching its MiG-35 to India. Evidently few had missed the doomed trajectory of the single engine fighter contest. But it’s the path ahead that’s truly littered with questions, so here goes:

1. How does India plan to choose its next fighter? Will this be a full-fledged tendered contest?
2. What bearing will this prospective new IAF contest have on the Indian Navy’s quest for 57 carrier fighters?
3. Will the new contest be guided by the same process principles of Make in India and Strategic Partnership (SP)?
4. Does the government plan to create a real time-frame for the process?

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...curement-saga-zooms-into-familiar-jumble.html