Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[AmoghaVarsha]

It's seems like govt floating fighter jet tender contest yet again. This time all the fighter jets will part in the competition.

Rafale make in india contest? Dont see how they will lose.

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[Sancho]

Which means what exactly? Oh that's right.... NOTHING.

Which means, that you are completely uninformed about the whole partnership and proposal and that Belgium could get the same participation in a future EU fighter programme, by Airbus/Germany.

 

[Sancho]

It's seems like govt floating fighter jet tender contest yet again. This time all the fighter jets will part in the competition.

I wouldn't be to surprised with the track record of failures in defence modernisation of the last 4 years, but so far there is not a single report that would verify, the tribune article (most are only refring to it), which itself is based on her say of unnamed sources.

However we saw reports about another re-tendered MMRCA last year too and it's more than evident, that the government is in financial problems, which is one reason they fail to fix so many deals and only fake actions by clearing DAC approvals, which means nothing.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Wrong, if you can detect it, the engagement is the same, no matter of you have a 4.5th or a 5th gen fighter.

ROFL!!!!

So you don't know that RCS plays a greater role in deciding lock-on range? Or you really think that a 5th gen fighter with active stealth has equal RCS as a 4.5 gen fighter?

Even present generation AAMs with active seekers will exhibit different LOAL range and No Escape Zone for 5th gen and 4.5 gen combat aircrafts.

 

[Sancho]

Rafale make in india contest? Dont see how they will lose.

There are plenty ways:

- non compliance to the RFP (one reason why the shouldn't even be invited back, since Dassault is the reason for the whole mess), if they still reject Indian rules.

- costs or ToT, the SPM has a higher focus on costs and secondary on tech transfer than the MMRCA. Part time DM Arun Jaitley made that clear last year, when he approved the model as part of the DPP 2016. We know the Rafale proposal was the 2nd costliest (possibly even the costliest) in the MMRCA and with the F3R now as the base, the costs are nor going to be lower. In Brazil we have seen, how Dassault lost a tender, by not providing the ToT they could have offered, because "owning" technology, doesn't mean they are will to share it all (see US).

- political reasons, since we have a new election coming and (even if I don't see a change in power) neither party can afford to be linked with an expensive give away before the elections. But also, since we are keep trying to get the US to open up on technology and the NDA government has shown to be for political deals, which was not a factor in the MMRCA.

- And as ironic it might even be, there is also the HAL factor. The government is preaching privat sector and make in India support, but most deals they approve are for PSUs. We know HAL has issues to keep workers in job, when no additional orders for Hawks, Do 228, MKI/FGFA come in. At the same time, we have Boeing publicly speaking in favour for a joint F18 production with HAL. So combining political advantages, with jobs for HAL would be an option too.

The more the government delays things, the worse it gets.

 

[Sancho]

ROFL!!!!

So you don't know that RCS plays a greater role in deciding lock-on range?

And another one that gets into conclusions without understanding the topic first:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-113#post-1407413

 

[Rahul Singh]

And another one that gets into conclusions without understanding the topic first:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-113#post-1407413

ROFL!!!

Topic? You are the one who is concluding right from start.

AMCA won't counter J-20. And starts talking about detection. As if detecting alone is countering J-20.

Then goes on to say the funniest thing I ever heard Engagement is same irrespective of 5th gen or 4.5 gen.

------------------
Anyway, actually, i had replied to your quote of my post. And that is where it started.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-112#post-1407053

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-112#post-1407056

 

[Sancho]

As if detecting alone is countering J-20.

Lol, what else is the counter to stealth, that the "detection" capability. :biggrin2:

 

[Rahul Singh]

SEF contest is scrpped...new tender to be issued

Our long time guess is coming true. We always knew this SEF is only a bargaining chip thrown to check few things. Foremost was USA's commitment to Indo-US defence cooperation.

 

[Sancho]

Then goes on to say the funniest thing I ever heard Engagement is same irrespective of 5th gen or 4.5 gen.

Which again shows your lack of understanding. If you detect a target, you engage it, by putting yourself in the position to not get detected by the enemy. You close in and since the RoE often requires visual ID, you can engage it only after that anyway. That goes for any fighter generation and has no relation to the fact if you have a stealth airframe or not.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Lol, what else is the counter to stealth, that the "detection" capability. :biggrin2:

Come on. Not again.

A detection has many variables wrt. to range and signature. Then comes engagement. What's is the point in detecting a 5th gen fighters when it takes out an intercepting fighter before later's FCR could get even a lock. Which will be the case if any 4.5 gen figheter tries to intercept any 5th gen figher.

One can even detect a presence of 5th gen fighters with ESM detectors. So does it mean a counter?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Which again shows your lack of understanding. If you detect a target, you engage it, by putting yourself in the position to not get detected by the enemy. You close in and since the RoE often requires visual ID, you can engage it only after that anyway. That goes for any fighter generation and has no relation to the fact if you have a stealth airframe or not.

My understanding is much better for you. Don't worry about it.:biggrin2:

Anyway, putting your self in a hiding position with a 4.5 generation will only work when J-20 attacks without the support of its escorting fighters and also without any AWACS for 360-degree coverage at long ranges. That still considering that J-20 will ignore every RWR ping it will get even in lone wolf mode. All highly unlikely!

Hit and run and lone wolf attacks do not represent air warfare of today. Which will certainly not be the case in any Indo-China war of today and future.

VID is of a bygone era. Today AWACS, IFF and SATCOMS rules. It will only be a requirement when there will partial air superiority established by concerned party. Which in this case will be PLAAF establishing over Indian airspace?...................... Then there will be no point having bought these SEFs at such an expense.

The only thing that will ever make a real difference will a 5th gen fighters in IAF which in all probability will be AMCA. So it remains. ONly counter to J-20 in the Indian context is AMCA.

 

[Sancho]

A detection has many variables wrt. to range and signature. What's is the point indetecting a 5th gen fighters

Lol, nice way to distract from the fact, only the sensor capability is important for "detection", exactly as I said and if you had understood the topic, you wouldn't have to distract now.

Putting your self in a hiding position with a 4.5 generation will only work when J-20 attacks without the support of its escorting fighters

Now it gets hilarious! J20 needs escorts fighters now? A few minutes ago you claimed it detects any non stealth fighters anyway. So you do understand now, that engaging the fighter after detection is the same for all kind of fighters right?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Lol, nice way to distract from the fact, only the sensor capability is important for "detection", exactly as I said and if you had understood the topic, you wouldn't have to distract now.

And what makes you think J-20's sensors would be so less capable than that of our's that difference between 4.5gen IAF and 5th gen PLAAF would be none.

Are you saying that CHines J-20 is only a 5th gen shaped airframe with 4th generation sensors?

It's getting really interesting with each post.

Now it gets hilarious! J20 needs escorts fighters now? A few minutes ago you claimed it detects any non stealth fighters anyway. So you do understand now, that engaging the fighter after detection is the same for all kind of fighters right?

If you detect a target, you engage it, by putting yourself in the position to not get detected by the enemy.

Since you had said this i did the courtesy of elaborating it.

Yeah, escort fighter which will scan the airspace to counter any fighter which might emerge from unconventional locations like expressways at close ranges nullifying range advantages that any stealth fighter has over 4.5 gen fighters.

Since you had spoken about putting yourself in a position of not getting detected at a range disadvantage. I put a scenario where it might happen. Enjoy!

 

[Sancho]

And what makes you think J-20's sensors would be so less capable

Nobody said it's less capable, but again, the discussion was about how to counter stealth and when an AMCA or MMRCA wold detect it! That's why I said, you jumped into conclusions without understanding to what you are refering to. So don't make it worse that it already is, by trying to distract from your mistake.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Nobody said it's less capable, but again, the discussion was about how to counter stealth and when an AMCA or MMRCA wold detect it! That's why I said, you jumped into conclusions without understanding to what you are refering to. So don't make it worse that it already is, by trying to distract from your mistake.

When i said AMCA is the real counter to J-20. I had spoken in the all-inclusive term called counter in said case i.e detection and neutralization. This is what 'counter' stands for in the plain and simple language of air warfare. And when you quoted my post for first time you should have known it.

Anyway, the worse was your assumption about a 4.5 gen having no difference with a 5th gen in terms of engagement.

So i leave to that and not making it any worse.

GN

 

[Armand2REP]

Which means, that you are completely uninformed about the whole partnership and proposal and that Belgium could get the same participation in a future EU fighter programme, by Airbus/Germany.

It sounds as if you are uninformed. Germany is not pitching the sale of Eurofighter to Belgium, it is the UK. With Brexit looming and the UK getting cut out of EU defence deals they do not have anything to offer for a future EU fighter programme. They are not even going to be a part of the EU.

 

[Sancho]

Sieh dir den Tweet von @RAeSTimR an:
Sieh dir den Tweet von @DanielRDarling an:
Indian defence procurement, the laughing stock for the world.

 

[Adioz]

@Mods @Kunal Biswas @Dovah @sayareakd Time to close this thread?
Multiple threads create confusion.
Further discussions can be at:
Govt scraps single-engine fighters plan, asks IAF to go for wider competition

^Also, can we please rename the new thread as MMRCA 2.0

Hope this time MoD does not screw it up.

 

[Sancho]

Time to close this thread?

There is not a single official statement so far.