IDN Archives: Why India Should Dump The FGFA Project?

[Armand2REP]

I accept the duel, Frenchman! Now all you have to do is take a flight to Chennai.

In all seriousness, you're right. France seems like the only option now to jointly develop a true stealth air superiority fighter. But if that happens you guys have to live up to your end of the bargain of sharing the core technology, and enabling India to make these jets from scratch at home, and to be able to repair, maintain and modify them without any assistance. India would be quite beneficial to the program because by 2025 our defence budget will be over 100 billion dollars and will reach 180-200 billion by 2030, so there will be an economy of scale when making these fighters.

We would love to take Indian money and develop it ourselves, but that is not how a fighter consortium works. Indian money stays in India developing the sections India will produce for the consortium. Those sections are Indian intellectual property and production rights are yours. All three nations will purchase all parts from all nations and a final assembly and testing centre will be selected as part of the workshare. Whatever India can make cheaper/better than Germany or France is what India should make to reduce the total cost for all members when purchasing the finished aircraft. Unfortunately it is not the answer that will rain advanced tech on India's head. It will provide the best and most advanced fighter aircraft on the planet, 33.3% produced and developed by India.

I do not understand why Indians think they can walk into Dassault, Sukhoi or Lockheed with a bag of money and say 'give me the tech and all productions rights'. You want them to sell their core technologies that make them a company that are also part of national security to their respective countries. Also don't forget that these companies rely on a chain of suppliers they have no control over. They are not going to gut themselves for a bag of cash, not even the Russians despite what people seem to think they get from them but actually don't.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

I do not understand why Indians think they can walk into Dassault, Sukhoi or Lockheed with a bag of money and say 'give me the tech and all productions rights'. You want them to sell their core technologies that make them a company that are also part of national security to their respective countries. Also don't forget that these companies rely on a chain of suppliers they have no control over. They are not going to gut themselves for a bag of cash, not even the Russians despite what people seem to think they get from them but actually don't.

Well said. Goes to show that there is no alternative to developing indigenous know how. I think India would be well served pouring money into domestic R&D and helping private sector aviation companies to come up rather than repeatedly spending tens of billions on foreign fighters again and again. Otherwise India will be importing fighter jets even in 2060. As far as a fighter consortium goes, I don't know what aviation components India will be able to produce cheaper or better than France and Germany. Certainly not the Engine. Maybe the Radar or parts of the Airframe.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well said. Goes to show that there is no alternative to developing indigenous know how. I think India would be well served pouring money into domestic R&D and helping private sector aviation companies to come up rather than repeatedly spending tens of billions on foreign fighters again and again. Otherwise India will be importing fighter jets even in 2060. As far as a fighter consortium goes, I don't know what aviation components India will be able to produce cheaper or better than France and Germany. Certainly not the Engine. Maybe the Radar or parts of the Airframe.

Pour all the money you like into R&D, no one is saying you shouldn't, but you have to be ready with something else if it doesn't work out. If you go with a three nation consortium it diffuses risks and costs. It is the cost that GoI politicians are scared of and the cost of doing this alone is not something they will swallow easily.

If India tries to tackle a 5th gen fighter by itself looks like this. Of the $18 billion required to develop it, they will go $6 billion with a number of uncompleted components and then they have to go shopping to foreign companies to complete the project. The amount of wastage will be counted in billions and you are still beholden to foreign entities while you get a Frankenfighter that is a decade behind and not exportable to anyone. If you go with the Franco-German fighter, you get an equal spot at the table and the clout of all three nations to export with.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Pour all the money you like into R&D, no one is saying you shouldn't, but you have to be ready with something else if it doesn't work out. If you go with a three nation consortium it diffuses risks and costs. It is the cost that GoI politicians are scared of and the cost of doing this alone is not something they will swallow easily.

If India tries to tackle a 5th gen fighter by itself looks like this. Of the $18 billion required to develop it, they will go $6 billion with a number of uncompleted components and then they have to go shopping to foreign companies to complete the project. The amount of wastage will be counted in billions and you are still beholden to foreign entities while you get a Frankenfighter that is a decade behind and not exportable to anyone. If you go with the Franco-German fighter, you get an equal spot at the table and the clout of all three nations to export with.

I didn't say India should go it alone. I said to even participate in a consortium India must have SOME aviation expertise. That will require build up of various types of companies, labs and production facilities capable of contributing to this joint project, which India does not currently possess. And if India has to acquire it, it requires lots of R&D money from the govt and lots of initiative and risk taking from the private sector.

 

[WolfPack86]

FGFA project haven't been cancelled yet in fact it is going smoothly as planned. India will be building air frames, raw materials and other important avionics system. I got the information from reliable source. I won't reveal identity of source. FGFA will be manufacture at Nashit plant where SU-30 MKi is built.

 

[WolfPack86]

Media putting fake news about FGFA in behest of arms lobby of USA and European countries. So that they can sell fighter jets to India.

 

[Armand2REP]

I didn't say India should go it alone. I said to even participate in a consortium India must have SOME aviation expertise. That will require build up of various types of companies, labs and production facilities capable of contributing to this joint project, which India does not currently possess. And if India has to acquire it, it requires lots of R&D money from the govt and lots of initiative and risk taking from the private sector.

If India is going to go the route of acquisition you are talking more money than GoI would ever be willing to spend. The French project manages costs more in line with what they would be comfortable paying. We already know that they are skeptical from Russia at a $7 billion price tag.

 

[Immanuel]

Or the Dassault 6th gen fighter, ground floor partner...

You don't have a 5th gen one yet, first get there.

 

[Armand2REP]

You don't have a 5th gen one yet, first get there.

It should be signed at ILA Berlin. We already have most of the components already. Rafale is running on 5th gen avionics and flight control systems, the nEUROn is the stealth delivery testbed including weapons bay. All we need is a new airframe and uprated engine. The investment into Kaveri by Safran includes creating new compounds for the high pressure section which can be used in this project.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The main problem is we don't have a european 5th gen fighter.We can't trust americans,and russians failed us.The only other one with a credible programme are the chinese.So we are in the shitpile.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

The main problem is we don't have a european 5th gen fighter.We can't trust americans,and russians failed us.The only other one with a credible programme are the chinese.So we are in the shitpile.

Yup. The 5th gen fighter market just sucks. Even though the F 22 went public in 1996, no one else started scrambling to match it. There was this lazy post cold war mentality that "America has the best weapons in the world, no point in trying to catch up, the soviet union is gone anyway". This is the first time in history that a country makes a new generation aircraft, and all other countries take their sweet time to make an equivalent plane 30 years later. This wasn't true of any previous generation of aircraft. Starting from 1st gen fighters to 4th gen fighters, everytime the Americans released something, there was always an alternative in the international market almost immediately.

 

[Armand2REP]

Security Scan - India-Russia FGFA Project