How Long Will It Take for India to Surpass China?

[Mad Indian]

Says the one who started the strawman in this thread , .ie you

But anyway, continue your strawman and debate yourself and quote yourself. I really dont like arguing for arguing sake . I dont have the luxury of wasting time with silly arguments

 

[Mad Indian]

India has allegedly surpassed China in GDP growth rate after the calculation method "adjustment". So it's a piece of cake isn't it?

But look at below graph, child mortality, literacy... phewwwwwww -- backbreaking efforts of generations are needed in order to improve any of those digits! No shortcuts indeed.

All of this are a difference of a decade of growth - .ie the difference between the time India opened its economy and China opened its economy. But we have one thing you guys dont have - we have the freedom/right to choose what we want

 

[Mad Indian]

After the next big-crunch and big-bang, unless something terrible goes wrong in China (Aliens with a taste for dumplings invade).

You think China can sustain its dictatorship in the long run? I dont think so. India's growth will be sustained and India's democracy will provide us stability. China is just one Mao away from total chaos

 

[amoy]

All of this are a difference of a decade of growth - .ie the difference between the time India opened its economy and China opened its economy. But we have one thing you guys dont have - we have the freedom/right to choose what we want

u mean 37% of illiterate have the same freedom / right as u do?? in simple words r they able to discern and informed to vote?

or those outside of the 9% internet users others have the same access to voice like u the 9% in the cyber age.

 

[Mad Indian]

u mean 37% of illiterate have the same freedom / right as u do?? in simple words r they able to discern and informed to vote?

or those outside of the 9% internet users others have the same access to voice like u the 9% in the cyber age.

No I meant even the poorest of the poor in India have more freedom than you can ever imagine in your country. One such example, they can decide the no. of children they want and have them. Can you?

 

[Mad Indian]

Some freedom >>> No freedom at all -> Normal logic

Since poor dont have the same freedom as the middle class , neither middle class nor the poor should have freedom ---> CCP logic. I just love the CCP. Kudos for brainwashing logic and common sense out of Chinese

 

[Mad Indian]

And whats with this nonsense that China is somehow a wonderland to live in? China's percapita GDP is only 11500$ while India's per capita GDP is 5500$. China is only twice as rich as India. Its only a matter of a decade for India to reach where China is now - .ie difference in the opening of markets in both countries.

 

[pmaitra]

Says the one who started the strawman in this thread , .ie you

But anyway, continue your strawman and debate yourself and quote yourself. I really dont like arguing for arguing sake . I dont have the luxury of wasting time with silly arguments

Good that you agree that North Korea is indeed a straw-man. What took you so long to realize this obvious fallacy of yours?

 

[tarunraju]

You think China can sustain its dictatorship in the long run? I dont think so. India's growth will be sustained and India's democracy will provide us stability. China is just one Mao away from total chaos

It will only get easier for China to sustain its dictatorship from here on out. Western societies are giving up notions of freedom and liberty rather easily, in the name of national-security and irrelevance brought about by entertainment-saturation, and sovereignties are being transferred from states to corporations. If the free-world is willing to lie to itself about the nature of democracy and republic, how can one expect there to be a "democratic" change in China? Never going to happen.

Heck, even in Hong Kong people are willing to lie to themselves about democracy. Last year's riots were the last whimper of democracy. HK is run by corporations. Corporations have a greater say in the affairs than even Beijing. People are so comfortable with their material pursuits, and the pleasures, that they don't care about "freedom." They have their own version of "freedom," and they're happy with it.

 

[Mad Indian]

Good that you agree that North Korea is indeed a straw-man. What took you so long to realize this obvious fallacy of yours?

NoKo was not a strawman. The way you took it was a strawman. I used NoKo as an example for failed dictatorship. Your point that we should be happy that what we are better than NoKo is not what I said. So yours is a strawman, mine is not. Again, dude, I am not interested in silly debates

 

[Mad Indian]

It will only get easier for China to sustain its dictatorship from here on out. Western societies are giving up notions of freedom and liberty rather easily, in the name of national-security and irrelevance brought about by entertainment-saturation, and sovereignties are being transferred from states to corporations. If the free-world is willing to lie to itself about the nature of democracy and republic, how can one expect there to be a "democratic" change in China? Never going to happen.

Heck, even in Hong Kong people are willing to lie to themselves about democracy. Last year's riots were the last whimper of democracy. HK is run by corporations. Corporations have a greater say in the affairs than even Beijing. People are so comfortable with their material pursuits, and the pleasures, that they don't care about "freedom." They have their own version of "freedom," and they're happy with it.

You think people of western world would prefer to live in a dictatorship like China? Its highly debatable if the western world has oligarchy(or corporatocracy) but even by your arguments, is dictatorship better than corporatocracy?

And You dint answer the point that China is only as good as its leader, who is not elected or representative of its people and hence not its desires. What is to stop another Mao from having a culttural revolution ? India of course can have some disasterous leaders but we have the ability to vote them out after 5 years, do the Chinese?

 

[pmaitra]

NoKo was not a strawman. The way you took it was a strawman. I used NoKo as an example for failed dictatorship. Your point that we should be happy that what we are better than NoKo is not what I said. So yours is a strawman, mine is not. Again, dude, I am not interested in silly debates

Of course your comment was a strawman. PRC did not say "OMG, everybody look, North Korea is so better than Indian democracy." You attacked a position that no one held. That is a strawman.

 

[Mad Indian]

Of course your comment was a strawman. PRC did not say "OMG, everybody look, North Korea is so better than Indian democracy." You attacked a position that no one held. That is a strawman.

Nope, that is the way you took it. What he gave was examples of poorer democracies and I countered by giving him an example of a failed dictatorship.. The conclusion being , economic prosperity has nothing to do with the type of govt. That is all to it. You are the one who is not understanding it and misconstruing it as a strawman

 

[pmaitra]

Nope, that is the way you took it. What he gave was examples of poorer democracies and I countered by giving him an example of a failed dictatorship.. The conclusion being , economic prosperity has nothing to do with the type of govt. That is all to it. You are the one who is not understanding it and misconstruing it as a strawman

How many other ways do you have of looking at the words "North Korea?" What you wrote is in black and white.

Here is the opening post: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/67084-china-mocks-indias-democratic-system.html
Here is the ToI article: China mocks India's democratic system - The Times of India

Do Control+F and show me where you see North Korea. If you cannot show North Korea, then you are attacking a strawman.

 

[Mad Indian]

How many other ways do you have of looking at the words "North Korea?" What you wrote is in black and white.

Here is the opening post: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/67084-china-mocks-indias-democratic-system.html
Here is the ToI article: China mocks India's democratic system - The Times of India

Do Control+F and show me where you see North Korea. If you cannot show North Korea, then you are attacking a strawman.

Wow. I dont know if you are being silly or arguing for argument's sake here and I dont want to deal with it either. But your defn of strawman is silly and wrong. Anyway This is the post I replied to

What about Phillipine, why its not rich after 30 years of democracy?
What about Chili?
What about Argentina?
What about Mexico?
And what about India?

Is Chili, Philipines, Argentina, Mexico on the article? SO is the person to whom I was responding to making a strawman?

This will be my last post regarding this subject if you are going to post another silly argument.

 

[amoy]

Heck, even in Hong Kong people are willing to lie to themselves about democracy. Last year's riots were the last whimper of democracy. HK is run by corporations. Corporations have a greater say in the affairs than even Beijing. People are so comfortable with their material pursuits, and the pleasures, that they don't care about "freedom." They have their own version of "freedom," and they're happy with it.

Here's a footnote to your remarks on Hong Kong

"There is good reason to think that Hong Kong, despite its lean public sector, lacks unfettered competition because of distortions in the private sector. Most important may be a wonky property market. In Hong Kong, only the government owns land. It used this monopoly for years to create a shortage that drove up property prices and made developers rich. Tycoons such as Mr Li then used cashflow from real estate—in effect, a government subsidy paid by consumers through higher rents—to expand into unrelated industries. As new rivals appear, the tycoons are using all means at their disposal to fend them off.

Li's businesses cover almost every facet of life in Hong Kong, from electricity to telecommunications, from real estate to retail, from shipping to the Internet. The Cheung Kong Group's market capitalisation is HK $647 billion (US $82.9 billion) as of December 2009. (This includes some double counting of the Group's controlling stake in 12 listed companies around the world.) The group operates in 55 countries and employs over 260,000 staff worldwide.

HK people's angst IMO is mostly towards monopoly of these tycoons which they can do nothing about rather than towards Beijing for freedom (a hands-off approach by Beijing for decades)

At the time of HK's handover to China Li's business was estimated at HK$ 10b worth. Now it's sprawled to HK$ 1 trillion globally. :shocked: But anxious HK youth ask "What's in it for me?"

Nothing can be done abt that - corporations rule.

 

[pmaitra]

Wow. I dont know if you are being silly or arguing for argument's sake here and I dont want to deal with it either. But your defn of strawman is silly and wrong. Anyway This is the post I replied to



Is Chili, Philipines, Argentina, Mexico on the article? SO is the person to whom I was responding to making a strawman?

This will be my last post regarding this subject if you are going to post another silly argument.

His post was a strawman too.

 

[salute]

Compared to India.

because chinas economy is hugh than india.

 

[nimo_cn]

All of this are a difference of a decade of growth - .ie the difference between the time India opened its economy and China opened its economy. But we have one thing you guys dont have - we have the freedom/right to choose what we want

I have seen that a lot, China opened its economy a decade earlier hence it's ahead, blah, blah... as if India could have surpassed China had India started reforming at the same time, which in my opinion is very argumentative.

But that is not my point, the point I want to make is that India is behind because of that mentality displayed by "Mad Indian", who fails to look deeply into the causes of the growing gap between India and China, but simply attributes it to China being lucky.

let's me ask you a simple question, have you ever thought about the reason why a totalitarian China managed to open up ten years before a democratic India? If that ten years was what makes China ahead India as you suggested, how is it not possible that China steals another ten-year march on India next time?

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[Bangalorean]

I have seen that a lot, China opened its economy a decade earlier hence it's ahead, blah, blah... as if India could have surpassed China had India started reforming at the same time, which in my opinion is very argumentative.

But that is not my point, the point I want to make is that India is behind because of that mentality displayed by "Mad Indian", who fails to look deeply into the causes of the growing gap between India and China, but simply attributes it to China being lucky.

let's me ask you a simple question, have you ever thought about the reason why a totalitarian China managed to open up ten years before a democratic India? If that ten years was what makes China ahead India as you suggested, how is it not possible that China steals another ten-year march on India next time?

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Whether you believe it or not, the difference in economic policies is the only reason China is ahead of India by around 10 years. We liberalized 13 years after China, and that is the reason, period. We will never be able to say for sure whether India would have been "ahead" or China would have been "ahead", but India and China would have been pretty close if we had liberalized in 1978. Economic policies are the only thing that matter. Look at the way Taiwan developed compared to China initially. Look at North and South Korea, East and West Germany...

By the way, @Mad Indian never said that you were "lucky". He said that you reformed your economy on time. I would attribute some element of luck to it - if Mao had stayed alive for another 13 years we would have been in the same boat today (more or less).

The reason totalitarian China opened up 13 years before India is because China got a visionary ruler called Deng Xiaoping. We were saddled with Rajiv Gandhi and co. It took near-bankruptcy to force India into action and reform.

If totalitarian China had got another Mao after 1978, you would have been in deeper shit than ever. So, while it is "possible" that China may steal another ten-year March on India, the reverse is also possible.