How 3 round burst works?

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
I am very interested to know how the 3 round burst in ARs work?

I came to know via Google that most ARs use a rachet mechanism to count out the 3 rounds before locking the hammer. However this means in burst mode if you quickly release the trigger, it will fire only 1-2 rounds. Pressing the trigger again fires out only the remaining bullet out of the group of 3.

H&K came up with a mechanism which lets you fire a 3 round burst every time irrespective of how many rounds were fired in the previous burst.

Maybe someone who works/worked in an armory can shed some light
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
[video=youtube_share;ArNzI4Tdcvw]http://youtu.be/ArNzI4Tdcvw[/video]
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
[video=youtube_share;KtLJmgcVazw]http://youtu.be/KtLJmgcVazw[/video]

[video=youtube_share;0Ot_SoFqD7A]http://youtu.be/0Ot_SoFqD7A[/video]
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
All of the videos above shows only Semi & Auto modes... None has the burst mode! :sad::sad::sad:
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
Professional
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,594
The number of rounds fired in a burst is almost universally determined by a cam mechanism that trips the trigger mechanism for each shot in the burst. Some designs, as employed on the M16A2, will terminate the burst if the trigger is released before the burst is complete, while others will reset the cam position, so the next burst will fire a full number of rounds.[1]
Burst mode (weapon) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The functional check of the three-round burst is as follows:

:: Guides
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
Professional
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,594

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
There seems to be 2 different trains of thought... Which one is better? 2 round burst or 3 round burst?

... in terms of ammo economy as well as accuracy & effectiveness.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
You can set the rate of fire by gas regulator, Afaik 3 rnd burst is ok so does 2, But i personally believe there should be 5 rnd burst at slower rate is good in suppressing enemy..
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
But isn't suppression the job of the Squad Automatic Weapon?

You can set the rate of fire by gas regulator, Afaik 3 rnd burst is ok so does 2, But i personally believe there should be 5 rnd burst at slower rate is good in suppressing enemy..
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Rule of 22

I recall reading on one of the articles, or perhaps seeing in a documentary, where a Soviet veteran of the Afghan War was telling how they operated their 3 round bursts.

Typically, they would keep all their weapons, in full auto mode. Their weapons were, of course, AK-74. Then, at combat time, all they had to do is, while firing, say "twenty-two;" i.e., pull the trigger when saying "twenty," and release it when saying "two." Now, I wonder whether they said it in Russian, or whether hey just said it in English. Whatever be the case, the effect was simple - a well practised soldier could effortlessly churn out volleys of 3 round bursts with the weapon in full auto mode. This also helped then to switch to full auto at will, without having to shift the mode lever.
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
As I mentioned in OP, most ARs use a ratchet mechanism to count out the 3 rounds before locking the hammer. However this means in burst mode if you quickly release the trigger, it will fire only 1-2 rounds. Pressing the trigger again fires out only the remaining bullet out of the group of 3.

H&K came up with a mechanism which lets you fire a 3 round burst every time irrespective of how many rounds were fired in the previous burst.

I found a few pics which shows the unique ratchet of H&K and it's trigger parts.







I am really unable to understand the working mechanism...

@W.G.Ewald @Kunal Biswas @sayareakd can you help?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
Professional
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,594
I am really unable to understand the working mechanism...

@W.G.Ewald @Kunal Biswas can you help?
Not me. We were just starting to use breech loaders when I served :)

Seriously, M16 was just replacing M14 when I qualified with the rifle. M14 was semi-auto; M16 was either semi- or full auto.

The M16A2 had the 3-round burst capability but I never fired one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A2
The development of the M16A2 rifle was originally requested by the United States Marine Corps as a result of the USMC's combat experience in Vietnam with the XM16E1 and M16A1.[11] The Marines were the first branch of the U.S. Armed Forces to adopt the M16A2 in the early/mid-1980s, with the United States Army following suit in the late 1980s. Modifications to the M16A2 were extensive. In addition to the new rifling, the barrel was made with a greater thickness in front of the front sight post, to resist bending in the field and to allow a longer period of sustained fire without overheating. The rest of the barrel was maintained at the original thickness to enable the M203 grenade launcher to be attached.[11] A new adjustable rear sight was added, allowing the rear sight to be dialed in for specific range settings between 300 and 800 meters to take full advantage of the ballistic characteristics of the new SS109 rounds and to allow windage adjustments without the need of a tool or cartridge.[11] The flash suppressor was again modified, this time to be closed on the bottom so it would not kick up dirt or snow when being fired from the prone position, and acting as a recoil compensator.[74] The front grip was modified from the original triangular shape to a round one, which better fit smaller hands and could be fitted to older models of the M16.[11] The new handguards were also symmetrical so that armories need not separate left and right spares. The handguard retention ring was tapered to make it easier to install and uninstall the handguards.[11] A notch for the middle finger was added to the pistol grip, as well as more texture to enhance the grip. The buttstock was lengthened by 5⁄8 in (15.9 mm).[11] The new buttstock became ten times stronger than the original due to advances in polymer technology since the early 1960s. Original M16 stocks were made from fiberglass-impregnated resin; the newer stocks were engineered from DuPont Zytel glass-filled thermoset polymers. The new stock included a fully textured polymer buttplate for better grip on the shoulder, and retained a panel for accessing a small compartment inside the stock, often used for storing a basic cleaning kit. The heavier bullet reduces muzzle velocity from 3,200 feet per second (980 m/s), to about 3,050 feet per second (930 m/s).[citation needed] The A2 also uses a faster twist rifling to allow the use of a trajectory-matched tracer round. A spent case deflector was incorporated into the upper receiver immediately behind the ejection port to prevent cases from striking left-handed users.[11]

The action was also modified, replacing the fully automatic setting with a three-round burst setting.[11] When using a fully automatic weapon, inexperienced troops often hold down the trigger and "spray" when under fire. The U.S. Army concluded that three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy and firepower. The USMC has retired the M16A2 in favor of the newer M16A4. However, many M16A2s remain in US Army, Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard service.[citation needed]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burst_mode_(weapon)

The number of rounds fired in a burst is almost universally determined by a cam mechanism that trips the trigger mechanism for each shot in the burst. Some designs, as employed on the M16A2, will terminate the burst if the trigger is released before the burst is complete, while others will reset the cam position, so the next burst will fire a full number of rounds.[1]
 
Last edited:

DivineHeretic

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,153
Likes
1,897
Country flag
You can set the rate of fire by gas regulator, Afaik 3 rnd burst is ok so does 2, But i personally believe there should be 5 rnd burst at slower rate is good in suppressing enemy..
Well, for medium range engagement (300+ metre ) the five round burst seems to be the norm even in LMG and HMG fire supression, especially in night firing.

We saw this right from WW2 (WW1 had mostly water cooled jacket around the barrel which enabled longer continuous volleys) when both the American/British Browning MG teams would fire 5-7 round bursts for maximum effect at least ammunition expense, and especially to ensure the gun did not become too hot for operation. They traded high rate of fire for a longer period of sustained intermittent fire.

Even now, the MGs (even the SAW) have tracers at 5 round seperation to enable the soldier to identify how accurate his shooting has been and take necesary correction. This is especialy done for night gunning. Thus a gunner will stop after the tracer round has been fired to check the accuracy of his shots.

I'm not sure the IA uses tracers in their MGs, or even if such tracers are available to the IA.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Well, for medium range engagement (300+ metre ) the five round burst seems to be the norm even in LMG and HMG fire supression, especially in night firing.

We saw this right from WW2 (WW1 had mostly water cooled jacket around the barrel which enabled longer continuous volleys) when both the American/British Browning MG teams would fire 5-7 round bursts for maximum effect at least ammunition expense, and especially to ensure the gun did not become too hot for operation. They traded high rate of fire for a longer period of sustained intermittent fire.

Even now, the MGs (even the SAW) have tracers at 5 round seperation to enable the soldier to identify how accurate his shooting has been and take necesary correction. This is especialy done for night gunning. Thus a gunner will stop after the tracer round has been fired to check the accuracy of his shots.

I'm not sure the IA uses tracers in their MGs, or even if such tracers are available to the IA.
Yes tracers are used in the IA.

One after every four rounds.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
The INSAS 1B1 has three modes- Safe, Semi and 3round Burst. The selector lever is identical in position to that of the FNC and is a well though out adaptation on an AKM type receiver. The design of the thumb piece is based more on the SLR design rather than that of the FNC. However, it is still not as ergonomic as planned and unless you have thumbs like E.T., you'll need relinquish your firm hold on the grip to actuate the selector. Very similar to the SLR, the safety position is top most, down about 70 degrees and you have semi, then to activate the tri-burst mechanism you'll need to rotate it almost 180 degrees. Take a look at the image below.



The three round burst mechanism is a sheet metal encased module that sits on the left side of the trigger/sear shoulder. It works by way of a ratchet and pawl lock-work. It is a vitual clone of the FNC/CAL module and at least in theory, independent of the basic functioning of the trigger mechanism. i.e. in case it buggers up, semi will continue functioning. The red circle in the picture below shows the 3 round burst module.

 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top