HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

[tejas warrior]

HAL Holds Global Vendors’ Meet. Looks to produce 100 HTT-40, efforts on to achieve basic certification of LUH by mid-2018 says Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD.

 

[patriots]

luh in defexpo 2018


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[patriots]

here is the video of luh from defexpo 2018
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[Prashant12]

HAL Light Utility Helicopter

 

[Prashant12]

HAL keen to supply Navy with light utility helicopters


NEW DELHI: Putting its hat in the ring for a naval requirement of light utility helicopters, state-owned aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has asked the defence ministry to consider its indigenous chopper as well, against just looking at international companies like Airbus and Bell for replacements.

Sources have told ET that the state-owned company has informed the defence ministry about the progress in its light utility helicopter (LUH) programme that undertook its first flight in September 2016 and is planned for production starting this year.

Making a pitch for considering a naval variant of this helicopter for the requirement of 111Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), the company has written that RS 400 crore has already been invested into the programme and it can be used by the navy instead of relying on imports.

The NUH programme is a key priority for the Navy that wants to retire its ageing Chetak fleet and is short of rotary wing aircraft for warships at sea. The NUH programme for 111 choppers is currently being pursued under the strategic partnership (SP) programme that involved selecting a foreign developed chopper to be made in India with the private industry.

At least three companies are in the fray for this order — the European Airbus, American Bell and Russian Kamov. While formal tenders are yet to be floated, a request for information has yielded replies from the companies and consultations are currently on within the defence ministry to take forward the process. Indian companies that are keen to make the chopper under the SP model include Mahindra (which had an MoU with Airbus), Tata and the Kalyani Group.

It is yet to be seen whether the HAL pitch will make it eligible to qualify for the tendering process once the defence ministry manages to sort out how to proceed with the SP model. The HAL developed chopper which is currently undergoing trials is a 3.1 tonne aircraft that is designed to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleet.

The program has been in the works since 2008 when the armed forces projected a requirement for a light chopper that could carry troops and supplies to all border areas. The chopper if powered by a Shakti engine in collaboration with French firm Turbomeca. A new production facility is to be built for the LUH project.

HAL is also working on a project with Russian Helicopters to build 200 of the KA 226 light choppers in India as part of a government to government deal. A tender for the KA 226 order was issued earlier this month.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-utility-helicopters/articleshow/64227945.cms

 

[abingdonboy]

HAL keen to supply Navy with light utility helicopters


NEW DELHI: Putting its hat in the ring for a naval requirement of light utility helicopters, state-owned aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has asked the defence ministry to consider its indigenous chopper as well, against just looking at international companies like Airbus and Bell for replacements.

Sources have told ET that the state-owned company has informed the defence ministry about the progress in its light utility helicopter (LUH) programme that undertook its first flight in September 2016 and is planned for production starting this year.

Making a pitch for considering a naval variant of this helicopter for the requirement of 111Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), the company has written that RS 400 crore has already been invested into the programme and it can be used by the navy instead of relying on imports.

The NUH programme is a key priority for the Navy that wants to retire its ageing Chetak fleet and is short of rotary wing aircraft for warships at sea. The NUH programme for 111 choppers is currently being pursued under the strategic partnership (SP) programme that involved selecting a foreign developed chopper to be made in India with the private industry.

At least three companies are in the fray for this order — the European Airbus, American Bell and Russian Kamov. While formal tenders are yet to be floated, a request for information has yielded replies from the companies and consultations are currently on within the defence ministry to take forward the process. Indian companies that are keen to make the chopper under the SP model include Mahindra (which had an MoU with Airbus), Tata and the Kalyani Group.

It is yet to be seen whether the HAL pitch will make it eligible to qualify for the tendering process once the defence ministry manages to sort out how to proceed with the SP model. The HAL developed chopper which is currently undergoing trials is a 3.1 tonne aircraft that is designed to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleet.

The program has been in the works since 2008 when the armed forces projected a requirement for a light chopper that could carry troops and supplies to all border areas. The chopper if powered by a Shakti engine in collaboration with French firm Turbomeca. A new production facility is to be built for the LUH project.

HAL is also working on a project with Russian Helicopters to build 200 of the KA 226 light choppers in India as part of a government to government deal. A tender for the KA 226 order was issued earlier this month.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-utility-helicopters/articleshow/64227945.cms

Issue is that the HAL LUH is single engined and IN want a twin engined NUH.

IN should’ve been onboard LUH project from the start with IA and IAF, don’t know why they chose not to.

Lack of foresight and planning again is going to bite us in the a$$

 

[kstriya]

HAL keen to supply Navy with light utility helicopters


NEW DELHI: Putting its hat in the ring for a naval requirement of light utility helicopters, state-owned aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has asked the defence ministry to consider its indigenous chopper as well, against just looking at international companies like Airbus and Bell for replacements.

Sources have told ET that the state-owned company has informed the defence ministry about the progress in its light utility helicopter (LUH) programme that undertook its first flight in September 2016 and is planned for production starting this year.

Making a pitch for considering a naval variant of this helicopter for the requirement of 111Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), the company has written that RS 400 crore has already been invested into the programme and it can be used by the navy instead of relying on imports.

The NUH programme is a key priority for the Navy that wants to retire its ageing Chetak fleet and is short of rotary wing aircraft for warships at sea. The NUH programme for 111 choppers is currently being pursued under the strategic partnership (SP) programme that involved selecting a foreign developed chopper to be made in India with the private industry.

At least three companies are in the fray for this order — the European Airbus, American Bell and Russian Kamov. While formal tenders are yet to be floated, a request for information has yielded replies from the companies and consultations are currently on within the defence ministry to take forward the process. Indian companies that are keen to make the chopper under the SP model include Mahindra (which had an MoU with Airbus), Tata and the Kalyani Group.

It is yet to be seen whether the HAL pitch will make it eligible to qualify for the tendering process once the defence ministry manages to sort out how to proceed with the SP model. The HAL developed chopper which is currently undergoing trials is a 3.1 tonne aircraft that is designed to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleet.

The program has been in the works since 2008 when the armed forces projected a requirement for a light chopper that could carry troops and supplies to all border areas. The chopper if powered by a Shakti engine in collaboration with French firm Turbomeca. A new production facility is to be built for the LUH project.

HAL is also working on a project with Russian Helicopters to build 200 of the KA 226 light choppers in India as part of a government to government deal. A tender for the KA 226 order was issued earlier this month.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-utility-helicopters/articleshow/64227945.cms

Has HAL developed ASW capabilities for LUH ?????!

 

[binayak95]

Issue is that the HAL LUH is single engined and IN want a twin engined NUH.

IN should’ve been onboard LUH project from the start with IA and IAF, don’t know why they chose not to.

Lack of foresight and planning again is going to bite us in the a$$

I have iterated time and time again. Implement automatic folding rotors on the Dhruv, the IN will buy them in droves!

Otherwise, chances remain slim except beyond present 16 (and another 16 on order)

 

[abingdonboy]

I have iterated time and time again. Implement automatic folding rotors on the Dhruv, the IN will buy them in droves!

Otherwise, chances remain slim except beyond present 16 (and another 16 on order)

HAL already has demonstrated automatic folding mechanism on the ALH for the IN but it does add a bit of weight (100+ KG), HAL aren't idiots to have done nothing about this with a potential operator like the IN willing to commit to 100+ if they get it right. The issue is, for some reason, the IN has stated the MTOW of the NUH has to be 5,000kg. The ALH is 5,600-5,700KG+ MTOW, this rules ALH out from the beginning.


IN is just making up rules to keep ALH out of the running and I am still not sure why this is, they are inducting it for shore based duties.

IA and IAF are very very satsified with the ALH, the IN has never given it much love.

Will be odd when IN select the Panther over the ALH when they are effectively in the same class, GoI should stamp its foot down and end this farce. Get IN to give legitimate reasons why the 100+ NUH order has to go to a foreign company and can't go to HAL, the MOD/IN doesn't have the money to throw billions down the drain like this.

+ HAL's pitch for NUH with LUH is interesting because Airbus is also pitching 2 helos for the NUH (H135M and Panther), H135M is in the LUH's class (3,000KG) and Panther is in ALH's (5,000KG). Apparently IN wrote the RFI so poorly that it wasn't clear to OEMs what exactly the IN wanted, HAL seems to be responding to this uncertainty also.

Sadly, HAL's issue with LUH remains it is only single engined, IN should be publically derided for not being onboard with LUH from the outset.

 

[abingdonboy]

+ Hope IN learns its lesson for IMRH but the existence of the NMRH tender gives me little hope that they have, they will ignore IMRH for a good decade trying to get some imported helo in the same class.

 

[kstriya]

HAL already has demonstrated automatic folding mechanism on the ALH for the IN but it does add a bit of weight (100+ KG), HAL aren't idiots to have done nothing about this with a potential operator like the IN willing to commit to 100+ if they get it right. The issue is, for some reason, the IN has stated the MTOW of the NUH has to be 5,000kg. The ALH is 5,600-5,700KG+ MTOW, this rules ALH out from the beginning.


IN is just making up rules to keep ALH out of the running and I am still not sure why this is, they are inducting it for shore based duties.

IA and IAF are very very satsified with the ALH, the IN has never given it much love.

Will be odd when IN select the Panther over the ALH when they are effectively in the same class, GoI should stamp its foot down and end this farce. Get IN to give legitimate reasons why the 100+ NUH order has to go to a foreign company and can't go to HAL, the MOD/IN doesn't have the money to throw billions down the drain like this.

+ HAL's pitch for NUH with LUH is interesting because Airbus is also pitching 2 helos for the NUH (H135M and Panther), H135M is in the LUH's class (3,000KG) and Panther is in ALH's (5,000KG). Apparently IN wrote the RFI so poorly that it wasn't clear to OEMs what exactly the IN wanted, HAL seems to be responding to this uncertainty also.

Sadly, HAL's issue with LUH remains it is only single engined, IN should be publically derided for not being onboard with LUH from the outset.

IS there any limitations for IN vessels cannot carry a help above 5000 kg???? Or was it another RFP to malign indigenous products.

 

[binayak95]

HAL already has demonstrated automatic folding mechanism on the ALH for the IN but it does add a bit of weight (100+ KG), HAL aren't idiots to have done nothing about this with a potential operator like the IN willing to commit to 100+ if they get it right. The issue is, for some reason, the IN has stated the MTOW of the NUH has to be 5,000kg. The ALH is 5,600-5,700KG+ MTOW, this rules ALH out from the beginning.


IN is just making up rules to keep ALH out of the running and I am still not sure why this is, they are inducting it for shore based duties.

IA and IAF are very very satsified with the ALH, the IN has never given it much love.

Will be odd when IN select the Panther over the ALH when they are effectively in the same class, GoI should stamp its foot down and end this farce. Get IN to give legitimate reasons why the 100+ NUH order has to go to a foreign company and can't go to HAL, the MOD/IN doesn't have the money to throw billions down the drain like this.

+ HAL's pitch for NUH with LUH is interesting because Airbus is also pitching 2 helos for the NUH (H135M and Panther), H135M is in the LUH's class (3,000KG) and Panther is in ALH's (5,000KG). Apparently IN wrote the RFI so poorly that it wasn't clear to OEMs what exactly the IN wanted, HAL seems to be responding to this uncertainty also.

Sadly, HAL's issue with LUH remains it is only single engined, IN should be publically derided for not being onboard with LUH from the outset.

Not everything that is indigenous should be blindly be inducted into service (especially when it comes to specific roles such as ASW and CSAR)

Now the Dhruv is a very good General Utility helicopter and equally good at SAR. Those are the roles where Dhruvs are being inducted in relatively large numbers into the Coast Guard and the IN

ASW means a few additional abilities - carrying and using a dunking sonar, ability to deploy sonobouys and torpedoes and yes, automatic folding blades for stowage on board a ship - there are others too, like being certified for helo ops in bad weather (Sea State 4 and above)

Now Rudra variant was quite thoroughly tested, in fact the IN was sufficiently impressed by its sensor payload to consider it for shore based recce missions and it demonstrated torpedo and missile firing ability (No dunking sonar thus far though)

And, contrary to what you claim, Dhruv does not have automatic folding (hydraulic) capabilities. It has implemented folding rotors but those have to be manually winched into place... kinda hard to do on the rolling and heaving deck of a warship no? I have never seen a picture or any source claiming hydraulic folding blades for the Dhruv.

Several sources to the contrary in fact:
https://jugalthepurohit.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/alh-dhruv-navys-arjun-tank/

Yeah and some more info:

ALH has rather poor endurance for ASW ops which typically involve the chopper searching for enemy subs for extended periods of 2-3 hrs. It lasts about an hour.

 

[Kshithij]

Not everything that is indigenous should be blindly be inducted into service (especially when it comes to specific roles such as ASW and CSAR)

Now the Dhruv is a very good General Utility helicopter and equally good at SAR. Those are the roles where Dhruvs are being inducted in relatively large numbers into the Coast Guard and the IN

ASW means a few additional abilities - carrying and using a dunking sonar, ability to deploy sonobouys and torpedoes and yes, automatic folding blades for stowage on board a ship - there are others too, like being certified for helo ops in bad weather (Sea State 4 and above)

Now Rudra variant was quite thoroughly tested, in fact the IN was sufficiently impressed by its sensor payload to consider it for shore based recce missions and it demonstrated torpedo and missile firing ability (No dunking sonar thus far though)

And, contrary to what you claim, Dhruv does not have automatic folding (hydraulic) capabilities. It has implemented folding rotors but those have to be manually winched into place... kinda hard to do on the rolling and heaving deck of a warship no? I have never seen a picture or any source claiming hydraulic folding blades for the Dhruv.

Several sources to the contrary in fact:
https://jugalthepurohit.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/alh-dhruv-navys-arjun-tank/

Yeah and some more info:

ALH has rather poor endurance for ASW ops which typically involve the chopper searching for enemy subs for extended periods of 2-3 hrs. It lasts about an hour.

What is the payload requirement for ASW operations? How much does it weigh? Is there any special requirments that makes it difficult to fit sono buoys on ALH?

HAL says that ALH endurance is 3.8 hours in the mk3 version with Shakti engine. Unless the demand is for heavy payload of 2.5-3 tonnes, ALH will be able to get 2-3 hour endurance. If the payload is indeed 3 tonnes, then the requirement is that o a 10-11ton helicopter like IMRH.

 

[binayak95]

What is the payload requirement for ASW operations? How much does it weigh? Is there any special requirments that makes it difficult to fit sono buoys on ALH?

HAL says that ALH endurance is 3.8 hours in the mk3 version with Shakti engine. Unless the demand is for heavy payload of 2.5-3 tonnes, ALH will be able to get 2-3 hour endurance. If the payload is indeed 3 tonnes, then the requirement is that o a 10-11ton helicopter like IMRH.

Two air launched torpedoes and a dunking sonar will come in at around a tonne. Add the hydraulic gear for self folding rotors and 10-12 sonobuoys you get about a 2-2.5 tonne payload.

Sonobuoys are launched from rotary bays or through fixed chutes on aircraft... that's what makes it so difficult to deploy them from helos.

The IMRH is the only really feasible plan. Dhruv doesn't cut it for ship based deployments.

 

[abingdonboy]

Not everything that is indigenous should be blindly be inducted into service (especially when it comes to specific roles such as ASW and CSAR)

Now the Dhruv is a very good General Utility helicopter and equally good at SAR. Those are the roles where Dhruvs are being inducted in relatively large numbers into the Coast Guard and the IN

ASW means a few additional abilities - carrying and using a dunking sonar, ability to deploy sonobouys and torpedoes and yes, automatic folding blades for stowage on board a ship - there are others too, like being certified for helo ops in bad weather (Sea State 4 and above)

Now Rudra variant was quite thoroughly tested, in fact the IN was sufficiently impressed by its sensor payload to consider it for shore based recce missions and it demonstrated torpedo and missile firing ability (No dunking sonar thus far though)

And, contrary to what you claim, Dhruv does not have automatic folding (hydraulic) capabilities. It has implemented folding rotors but those have to be manually winched into place... kinda hard to do on the rolling and heaving deck of a warship no? I have never seen a picture or any source claiming hydraulic folding blades for the Dhruv.

Several sources to the contrary in fact:
https://jugalthepurohit.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/alh-dhruv-navys-arjun-tank/

Yeah and some more info:

ALH has rather poor endurance for ASW ops which typically involve the chopper searching for enemy subs for extended periods of 2-3 hrs. It lasts about an hour.

You’re conflating requirements, I have clearly stated the ALH should be made available for the NUH requirement, not the NMRH requirement.

It’s the NMRH role that will be the primary ASW asset and for that a much larger helo (>10t) will be ordered.

ALH is in the same class as the Airbus Panther (5t) which is being offered for the NUH role and the IN has the same (limited) ASW capabilities of the Panther, it has a maritime radar, it has a dunking sonar, it can carry torpedoes etc etc

Look at the specs, the ALH and Panther have almost identical ranges and capacity. If IN is okay with Panther, why not ALH?

 

[binayak95]

You’re conflating requirements, I have clearly stated the ALH should be made available for the NUH requirement, not the NMRH requirement.

It’s the NMRH role that will be the primary ASW asset and for that a much larger helo (>10t) will be ordered.

ALH is in the same class as the Airbus Panther (5t) which is being offered for the NUH role and the IN has the same (limited) ASW capabilities of the Panther, it has a maritime radar, it has a dunking sonar, it can carry torpedoes etc etc

Look at the specs, the ALH and Panther have almost identical ranges and capacity. If IN is okay with Panther, why not ALH?

Hydraulically operated folding rotors. Simple

 

[abingdonboy]

Hydraulically operated folding rotors. Simple

As far as I know it has been developed for the ALH, why would HAL have not done so after all these years?

And you’re saying the sole reason the IN isn’t interested in the ALH for the NUH role is because of this?

 

[binayak95]

As far as I know it has been developed for the ALH, why would HAL have not done so after all these years?

And you’re saying the sole reason the IN isn’t interested in the ALH for the NUH role is because of this?

No, unfortunately, HAL has not developed hydraulic folding rotors for the Dhruv. They have made the rotors foldable but manually.

And yes, that's the ONLY reason. You cannot store a chopper in the narrow hangars of a ship with rotors wide open and there is no space to bring a winch to fold them either. (Not to mention the enormous hassle of unfolding the rotors of a chopper during combat deployment)

Can you even imagine the sheer ridiculousness of it?

"Enemy submarine located!" says the crewmen monitoring the sonar.

"Deploy the helo, direct them to the last known grid" orders the XO

"Yes sir, will take 25 minutes since we have to unfold the rotors, MANUALLY"

yeah. bye bye ship.

 

[abingdonboy]

No, unfortunately, HAL has not developed hydraulic folding rotors for the Dhruv. They have made the rotors foldable but manually.

And yes, that's the ONLY reason. You cannot store a chopper in the narrow hangars of a ship with rotors wide open and there is no space to bring a winch to fold them either. (Not to mention the enormous hassle of unfolding the rotors of a chopper during combat deployment)

Can you even imagine the sheer ridiculousness of it?

"Enemy submarine located!" says the crewmen monitoring the sonar.

"Deploy the helo, direct them to the last known grid" orders the XO

"Yes sir, will take 25 minutes since we have to unfold the rotors, MANUALLY"

yeah. bye bye ship.

Again, ALH will be for NUH role not ASW NMRH. And for the NUH role the IN have been using the Chetak for decades which itself has manually folding blades.

 

[binayak95]

Again, ALH will be for NUH role not ASW NMRH. And for the NUH role the IN have been using the Chetak for decades which itself has manually folding blades.

But the Chetak is small enough to not need them! Which is not the case of the Dhruv.

And just so that you know, the current tender needs all helos in the fleet to have ASW capability. Dhruv has that! All it needs is hydraulic rotors.. why do you think that the organisation that has pioneered Indian defence manufacturing is saying no to Dhruv (that too for ship deployments only) and the LCA-N?

The senior officers who take these decisions are not fools.